A company wishes to use one of my images

alfbranch

alfbranch

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Alf
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I was approached by THIS company as to use 1 or more of my photos I posted in THIS thread.

I had the feeling the way I was approached they wanted to them for free so I asked:
What sort of usage do you need and are you offering payment?

The reply I got was

Unfortunately I can't offer any payment for your photos, we're only a small team and most of the marketing I try and do has to be free but if there were used we could credit you. They'd potentially be used for business to business promotion to show our effects in action. Doing what we do, we don't engage in public advertising as it isn't really needed for what we do!

I personally find this a terrible approach from a creative company. What do you think?
 
Well if they won't pay they won't pay, depends if you want your name to be seen, it can't hurt, paid or not it still gets your name attached to your image that could bring you something in the end.

fair enough if you are a paid pro, if not I'd take it as a compliment, depends on you really and what you want/do.
 
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If people keep giving their images away for nothing there will never be a professional photographer and we will all have to give our images away.
If they asked you to deliver a parcel, carry out a days work for them would you do it for nothing. They want to use for business to business promotion which I expect they will be paid for their services.
Why should yours be free, I image they pay their mortgages, utilities, food, have holidays etc. how do they expect other people to do this when they ask them to do things for free?
Why should you, you didn't get your equipment for free nor did you travel to the location where you took the picture for free, also your computer your internet etc., etc..
 
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alfbranch said:
Unfortunately I can't offer any payment for your photos, we're only a small team and most of the marketing I try and do has to be free
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and from there website.....


Voted Special Effects Company of the Year in 2012 and 2013

team of experienced designers, engineers and crew

Quantum provided effects for over 300 shows across the globe, covering every major continent on shows including Katy Perry at the IPL opening concert in Chennai, India & the F1 Grand Prix in Singapore and the London 2012 Olympics

With offices on both sides of the Atlantic, the Quantum team is highly ambitious and offers comprehensive effects that are delivered professionally and efficiently to any type, budget and size of event around the world.

Yeah, Right !

I know what my answer would be.
 
I agree don't give them away for nothing, but what are the venue's rules for photography anyway? You might find you're restricted from selling the shots even if you were allowed to take them in the first place.
 
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Well, from their website it looks like they do SFX for some fairly big events - perhaps if they don't have a cash budget, they might be able to get you some complimentary tickets to a future event you're interested in?
 
I have to agree with both Gazamonk and Faldrax.....both present really good points.

For a creative company to make this sort of approach is an insult and as a minimum, a waste of your time

PS: **pictures linked too - really impressive and I can see why they would be of interest**
 
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Ask them for some free special effects with a credit in exchange. See what they say . . .


Also check out their company report on companies house. It often says how much cash at the bank a company has ;)
 
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Somebody asks to use my image - it doesn't matter if it's the local pub newsletter or Microsoft.

'Invitation to treat'

I ask about payment, they say there's no payment but thers a 'credit'.

For every photographer willing to provide a shot for payment, there are dozens who are more than happy to provide to 'give' a shot for a credit.

Having a shot that only you can provide isn't easy though.
 
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Southdowns said:
I agree don't give them away for nothing, but what are the venue's rules for photography anyway? You might find you're restricted from selling the shots even if you were allowed to take them in the first place.
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From the stadium's T's and C's; "All pictures taken must be for personal use only".

Personally, I'd risk selling them anyway if I had the opportunity, but technically (and morally; we're accusing a company of being bad for wanting free photos, while wanting to sell photos we have no right to sell?), it does make the discussion a bit mute in this instance :)

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree with all of the other posters, just trying to look at the issue from a slightly different angle :)

Great photo's BTW.
 
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How about this, seeing as they have a lucrative market and supposedly do work globally, why can't they associate you as their chief Tog, that way, as long as they pay for you to tag along to a few gigs you can sit back stage snapping away or venture into the front. It's only an idea but surely they can put you on the staffing list when ever they go to said shows!
 
Southdowns said:
From the stadium's T's and C's; "All pictures taken must be for personal use only".

Personally, I'd risk selling them anyway if I had the opportunity, but technically (and morally; we're accusing a company of being bad for wanting free photos, while wanting to sell photos we have no right to sell?), it does make the discussion a bit mute in this instance :)

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree with all of the other posters, just trying to look at the issue from a slightly different angle :)

Great photo's BTW.
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Well surely that means the company in question can't use them either, as they would be using them for commercial purposes.
 
visagephoto said:
Well surely that means the company in question can't use them either, as they would be using them for commercial purposes.
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Maybe, but legally that wouldn't protect the OP, even if it is true. In fact, as the company has no contract with the venue (as a member of the audience at least), they probably can't be bound by the terms of one, so as long as they've obtained the shots legally, they may be off the hook, leaving it ALL down to the OP.

It might be different if the venue claimed copyright of the photos in their T's and C's, but they don't, they just prohibit commercial use.

If the OP wants to be polite in telling them to go boil their heads, it could be his get out clause though. Kind of "I'd love to give you my hard work for absolutely nothing even though you can afford to pay, but unfortunately I'm prevented from doing so by the T's and C's I read carefully before taking the pictures.".

Not that I'm recommending being polite in this instance :)
 
Southdowns said:
Maybe, but legally that wouldn't protect the OP, even if it is true. In fact, as the company has no contract with the venue (as a member of the audience at least), they probably can't be bound by the terms of one, so as long as they've obtained the shots legally, they may be off the hook, leaving it ALL down to the OP.

It might be different if the venue claimed copyright of the photos in their T's and C's, but they don't, they just prohibit commercial use.

If the OP wants to be polite in telling them to go boil their heads, it could be his get out clause though. Kind of "I'd love to give you my hard work for absolutely nothing even though you can afford to pay, but unfortunately I'm prevented from doing so by the T's and C's I read carefully before taking the pictures.".

Not that I'm recommending being polite in this instance :)
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This^
 
alfbranch said:
Unfortunately I can't offer any payment for your photos, we're only a small team and most of the marketing I try and do has to be free but if there were used we could credit you. They'd potentially be used for business to business promotion to show our effects in action. Doing what we do, we don't engage in public advertising as it isn't really needed for what we do!

I personally find this a terrible approach from a creative company. What do you think?
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Find their head office and wander in, drop your pants, and invite them to kiss your derriere. Or send them a link to this article: http://lindsaydobsonphotography.com/blog/cant-pay-the-photographer/
 
Southdowns said:
From the stadium's T's and C's; "All pictures taken must be for personal use only".
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I did think about that and going to look. If I had a press pass that would be different.

I have just sent them an email but managed to be polite but sending them alink to the site quoted below.


ShawWellPete said:
I think this sums it up.
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alfbranch said:
I did think about that and going to look. If I had a press pass that would be different.

I have just sent them an email but managed to be polite but sending them alink to the site quoted below.
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Then why not request:

1.You be credited for the Image
2. A press pass for the use of your image ( To another event they host, that you may be interested in attending)

Can't hurt Alf

Les :thumbs:
 
An alternative opinion and question to the OP:

Do you regularly sell work, and do you want to? Then think twice before saying no. It's all very well amateurs just saying "No... tell them to **** off", but would you be selling this image to anyone else any time soon? Are you even trying to? If not, what have you got to lose?

Get it licensed to them so they know they don't have exclusivity, and then let them have it on the proviso (stipulated in the license) that you get a free copy of the publication with your work in it, therefore you have your first tear sheet for your folio.

If you want to be a professional, automatically saying "**** off" is just arrogant and probably counter productive. If you have other clients who you know you can sell the image to, then sure, tell them no, otherwise, what will saying no actually gain you?


I've had people use my images on websites without permission before, and if they credit me, I'm not really arsed... thanks for the publicity quite frankly. Let's be honest, anyone skimming the net for images is NOT going to pay for it anyway, so it's not as if I've lost a sale. Using it without permission and without a credit.. then yes, a ton of bricks is heading there way... used without permission and credited to themselves and a **** great law suit is heading there way, but sometimes, free publicity is just that.
 
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Pookeyhead said:
An alternative opinion and question to the OP:


If you want to be a professional, automatically saying "**** off" is just arrogant and probably counter productive. If you have other clients who you know you can sell the image to, then sure, tell them no, otherwise, what will saying no actually gain you?
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David, the OP and other contributors are coming from the viewpoint that this company can most certainly afford to pay something for the image it wishes to use, the problem is they feel they simply do not have to anymore (because photographers are so very willing to give their stuff away for nothing). If the photographer were to comply then he is simply feeding the problems which are becoming endemic and which are affecting most of us in some way.

Sure, if the publicity is going to be worthwhile then absolutely allow the image to be used, but in this scenario it does not appear to offer much publicity/marketing value, if any. For example, if I was asked for one of my images to go in a feature within a well known journal with a substantial local readership consisting of my target customer group than I know what I would do. But this company just doesn't want to pay or offer tangible mutual benefit, even though they could. I do think there is a principle here and I believe the OP is doing the right thing in standing firm. This is not a good example of a mutually beneficial arrangement. What is doubly irritating is the fact that they have mentioned a credit - as I understand it a credit is the photographer's right, it is not something the end user bestows upon them, yet all too often companies use this as a form of recompense.

I think that saying yes will gain nothing, and saying no will not constitute any loss.
 
Lindsay D said:
David, the OP and other contributors are coming from the viewpoint that this company can most certainly afford to pay something for the image it wishes to use,
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Maybe, maybe not.

Just my opinion. Feel free to tell them no. Sometimes when you're starting out, it pays to let one go for free. Companies will exploit that, sure, but so do photographers. Quid pro quo... Once you've got some tear sheets... then tell them to **** off.
 
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David, I don't think this company's ability to pay is in question, of course they can pay something.

I did plenty of free work when I was starting out, but before even considering it I weighed up what the benefit would be to me and my business, otherwise there is absolutely no point and I am simply becoming a charity for every tightfisted chancer out there. My free work was based around getting good solid exposure (leagues apart from what the OP would get here I imagine) and valuable images for my professional portfolio. But I will not give my work away to people who believe I deserve nothing in return.

Just now I am talking to a company who wishes to use one of my photographs on the front cover of a book, I have requested the scale of the print run and the pricing. In their initial communication to me they did, predictably, make it very clear that they "cannot pay much" but they will get a reasonable return on sales, and all of them will be paid for the work they do. For that reason I know what my minimum price for the cover will be, and if they choose not to pay that then I will not fall back on the "well the image is sitting around anyway not being sold so something is better than nothing" argument. I would prefer it if they offered somebody else a pittance instead of me.

I've had so many people try it on over the years, all of whom could pay good money if they are prepared to, and I am very very pleased that I have always maintained by policy of never underselling my work (that is not to say that I will not occasionally negotiate and make concessions if appropriate, but that is very different).
 
Lindsay D said:
David, I don't think this company's ability to pay is in question, of course they can pay something.
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They either will or they won't. (shrug)



Lindsay D said:
I did plenty of free work when I was starting out, but before even considering it I weighed up what the benefit would be to me and my business
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That's all I'm asking the OP to do. Does he even HAVE a business? Has he sold work before? Is he actively trying to? Would he know HOW to?

I'm sorry, but so long as you know you're being taken advantage of, you're in control. Sometimes, letting an image go for free that you wouldn't be selling otherwise, can make sense if it gets you a tear sheet, some publicity, and therefore as a result make it easier to sell your NEXT image.

The automatic "Tell them to bog off" attitude is often short sighted, and the recourse of those who probably have never sold an image themselves, or have very short memories of how hard it was to get that first client.(although I know of may people who have sold work who disagree with me).

Lindsay D said:
, otherwise there is absolutely no point and I am simply becoming a charity for every tight-fisted chancer out there.
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I agree... unless your chances of actually selling it elsewhere are slim, then what have you got to lose?

Lindsay D said:
My free work was based around getting good solid exposure (leagues apart from what the OP would get here I imagine) and valuable images for my professional portfolio. But I will not give my work away to people who believe I deserve nothing in return.
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As I still maintain. Alf needs to consider what he would be losing. If the answer is nothing, then he needs to concentrate on what he might gain. If that's a tear sheet and a past client on his CV, then it's far more than he may have already.

I am not advocating giving work away for free as a modus operandi... I'm saying don't be so closed minded. Weigh the options, and if the option is the image languishes on your hard drive unseen, then why the hell not?

Most people will be objecting on principle rather than on rationale thought.


Lindsay D said:
I've had so many people try it on over the years, all of whom could pay good money if they are prepared to,
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Me too... and I was aware they were trying to rip me off. I wasn't being exploited though.. I weighed up the options, and thought "No one else will buy this, and I'm not making any effort to sell it, so why not".


All I'm saying is never just automatically say "bog off". If you're just starting out, it's arrogant and often short sighted. Let them think they're ripping you off if they want... so long as you're getting something usable in return, then fine.

All academic. Alf may be a highly successful photographer for all I know... in which case, sure.. tell them to bog off.

Just avoid knee jerk reactions.
 
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I'm with David on this, all the one's in here saying no don't do it, well I can bet the people saying that have done the exact same thing at some point in there career to get them self's noticed, is it a case of we don't need more jobs being taken by a guy with a camera?

If you don't do it. you know where it will lead, nowhere, where as if you do let them, it could lead anywhere, easy choice if you have nothing to loose and maybe just maybe something to gain.
 
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I understand all of the points you have made David. I'm not disputing them, but I don't think it has anything to do with whether or not you are a successful photographer, because either way what you have produced clearly has value if a business wishes to possess it. I'm simply saying that one has to weigh up the benefit - and whether the benefit is enough to be worthwhile. The gist I get however is that there will be no apparent benefit to the photographer in this case. A tear sheet is only of value if it's going to get you more business when placed before your target customers. Otherwise every time you look at it you will be reminded of the shafting you took.
 
Ivan S said:
I'm with David on this, all the one's in here saying no don't do it, well I can bet the people saying that have done the exact same thing at some point in there career to get them self's noticed, is it a case of we don't need more jobs being taken by a guy with a camera?

If you don't do it. you know where it will lead, nowhere, where as if you do let them, it could lead anywhere, easy choice if you have nothing to loose and maybe just maybe something to gain.
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That's all I was saying, yes.

I'm NOT suggesting you give work away as a matter of course, but if the other option is that it just sits there being unused.. then in my opinion, saying "bog off" is just cutting off your nose to spite your face... just on principle.


Lindsay D said:
I'm simply saying that one has to weigh up the benefit - and whether the benefit is enough to be worthwhile.
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I'm sorry.. but that is exactly what I am saying. Part of that process is not saying "Bog off" without giving it some thought.
 
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Ivan S said:
I'm with David on this, all the one's in here saying no don't do it, well I can bet the people saying that have done the exact same thing at some point in there carerr to get them selfs noticed,
.
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That's exactly the point I'm trying to make Ivan - if doing stuff for free is going to get you noticed then it can be a really good idea especially when you're starting out. I've done free work before for promotional reasons but only after careful consideration. In this case it appears the use of the image is unlikely to be of any benefit, but perhaps the OP can say more on that. I do think that if he were going to benefit then he would not have needed to come here and tell us the story.

If photographers want to give work away for free then why not take an intelligent approach to it - identify charities or worthy causes which align with what you do, causes where you will be giving something valuable to them and hopefully putting your work exposed through channels which will be useful.
 
Lindsay D said:
That's exactly the point I'm trying to make Ivan - if doing stuff for free is going to get you noticed then it can be a really good idea especially when you're starting out. I've done free work before for promotional reasons but only after careful consideration. In this case it appears the use of the image is unlikely to be of any benefit,
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Explain how it is of no benefit.
 
David, saying "bog off" is exactly the thing to do in circumstances where there is a profound imbalance between what the company and the photographer are gaining. Because that is what appears to be going on here, unless the OP can tell us otherwise. My response to this thread was not a knee-jerk reaction. We are certainly going round in circles though, and I'll not continue repeating what has been said several times now.
 
Lindsay D said:
That's exactly the point I'm trying to make Ivan - if doing stuff for free is going to get you noticed then it can be a really good idea especially when you're starting out. I've done free work before for promotional reasons but only after careful consideration. In this case it appears the use of the image is unlikely to be of any benefit, but perhaps the OP can say more on that. I do think that if he were going to benefit then he would not have needed to come here and tell us the story.

If photographers want to give work away for free then why not take an intelligent approach to it - identify charities or worthy causes which align with what you do, causes where you will be giving something valuable to them and hopefully putting your work exposed through channels which will be useful.
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But how will he know it will be of no benefit if he takes no risk?
 
Lindsay D said:
The idea is that you weigh it up beforehand, not after you've sold yourself short.
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Well you have to take a gamble sometimes, he or anyone of us cannot be sure he will not benefit further down the line.

You win some you loose some, as the saying goes.
 
Lindsay D said:
David, saying "bog off" is exactly the thing to do in circumstances where there is a profound imbalance between what the company and the photographer are gaining.
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Fine, if you think so. Only Alf can shed light on this. Used correctly there may be gains to be had that otherwise may never have arisen. You are no more in possession of facts to defend your argument than I am mine.

My point is, never just automatically say Bog off. I wasn't saying this exclusively in response to you either. You're not the only person in this thread saying "tell them to bog off".
 
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