A camera doesn't make the photographer

Ed Sutton said:
Did you miss the smiley? :)
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Yes.. sorry... not very observant tonight :) I would still be careful even suggesting people have erroneous motivations for what they do though, joking or not.




Phil V said:
Gifted or Driven?

I'm afraid I'm in the driven camp.

The amount of time and effort put in to practice by those who are seen by many to be gifted is astronomical. All of those child prodigies didn't pick up a violin at 13 to find they were brilliant at it, they've been playing 2 hours a day since they were 6. Teaching, drive, ambition has produced what people then call 'natural ability'.

Listen to David Beckhams mum talk about him playing football as a kid. Out with his mates after school, like we all did. Then when all his mates had gone in to watch TV, he's still out for another 2 hours practicing his dead ball skills. Now I'm not a fan of the bloke, but he's one of the best dead ball specialists we've ever produced.

Bill Gates, as a 13 year old, getting up at 5 to cycle to the local college to get some screen time where there's the only computer for miles and after school there's queues to get time on it.
It's that level of drive which creates the success. Jimmy Page on Blue Peter at 12? How much practice do you think he'd had?
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You are talking about learning a physical skill though. I'm not. A 6 year old prodigy may be able to play the violin or piano better than people who have spent their lives doing so, and we call them a prodigy, but that's not creativity. You are confusing skill and creativity. Creativity is a purely mental process that has nothing to do with physically practising something.

Physically practising photography once you know the basics will make you a very good technical photographer, but that has nothing to do with creativity.

Creativity is a purely mental faculty, and anyone who can think, can think creatively. Even those who are adamant that they can not can. The problem is, some people are adamant that they can not, and as a result, they probably won't be if left to their own devices. If you believe something is true, then it becomes true.

Your argument relies on one thing only: That there are people out there with zero creativity. That is patently untrue however. We all have creativity... it's just buried deeper in some people than others.
 
Pookeyhead said:
Yes.. sorry... not very observant tonight :) I would still be careful even suggesting people have erroneous motivations for what they do though, joking or not.

You are talking about learning a physical skill though. I'm not. A 6 year old prodigy may be able to play the violin or piano better than people who have spent their lives doing so, and we call them a prodigy, but that's not creativity. You are confusing skill and creativity. Creativity is a purely mental process that has nothing to do with physically practising something.

Physically practising photography once you know the basics will make you a very good technical photographer, but that has nothing to do with creativity.

Creativity is a purely mental faculty, and anyone who can think, can think creatively. Even those who are adamant that they can not can. The problem is, some people are adamant that they can not, and as a result, they probably won't be if left to their own devices. If you believe something is true, then it becomes true.

Your argument relies on one thing only: That there are people out there with zero creativity. That is patently untrue however. We all have creativity... it's just buried deeper in some people than others.
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You're missing my point about the 'practice', my point was the drive to learn and become better, that doesn't just apply to the technical aspects and also covers your points about belief in your ability.
 
Phil V said:
You're missing my point about the 'practice', my point was the drive to learn and become better, that doesn't just apply to the technical aspects and also covers your points about belief in your ability.
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I see.. then you seem to be agreeing with me. However, it's a different kind of practice. It's a mental process and one more to do with self belief. In a way you are right though... you can become creative by practice, but you don't necessarily even have to pick up a camera to do it. Creativity is evidenced by your ideas. You exercise them via photographic skill, but the ideas are independent of your skill.

You obviously can't have one without the other, but they are very separate things.
 
Pookeyhead said:
Creativity is just a way of thinking, and you can change the way people think quite easily. Creativity is not a physical attribute like being a fast runner, or being a concert pianist. These are things that rely on physical as well as mental attributes, like strength, freakishly high cardio/repository systems, or immense dexterity. Creativity is just thinking... a way of looking at the world, and we can all think. Some people are just more closed minded than others. You can change the way people think though... it's actually quite easy.

Creativity is lost when you grow up unless you are particularly strong willed. Most people therefore feel they are not creative and see creativity in others as some kind of gift of nature, but it really isn't. It's just that they have lost the magic of being a child sometimes. All children are massively creative.. immeasurably more than most adults. The only thing that stops them from all becoming prodigies is lack of motor skills and maturity to focus that creativity. When you get the rare cases that CAN channel that creativity, we call them a prodigy. The fact is though... that creativity is there in all children. They get TAUGHT to NOT be creative in schools and by their parents.

You can unlearn that process.
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I think it's a lovely way to think of creativity, and I reckon it'd be the best way to inspire students and aspiring photographers to explore the deepest depths of their creativity, with nothing holding them back, then, except their own willingness to dig within. But is it all true? I'm afraid I'm a pragmatist, an agnostic, and a sceptic, and I'm inherently resistant to notions and constructs such as these.

Pookeyhead said:
I'm interested to know Simon. Do you see yourself as creative?
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I'm a creatively challenged multi-disciplinarian; a jack of all, master of diddly squat. I went to art college, but left in the 3rd year to become a computer programmer. Am I gifted? Nope.

David, I don't want to give the impression that I pooh-pooh anything you achieve with your students. Nothing could be further from the truth. My ex wife is a gifted artist and teacher. My partner-in-crime these days is an accomplished, extraordinarily gifted artist and teacher, as was her father (who I've known since my teens), and as was my father. It is not for a lack of trying, and certainly not for a lack of opportunity, that I've been unable to unlock the "gift" inside me. The problem, for me, is that it's just not there. :shrug:
 
SimonH said:
I think it's a lovely way to think of creativity, and I reckon it'd be the best way to inspire students and aspiring photographers to explore the deepest depths of their creativity, with nothing holding them back, then, except their own willingness to dig within. But is it all true? I'm afraid I'm a pragmatist, an agnostic, and a sceptic, and I'm inherently resistant to notions and constructs such as these.
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Well.. your frame of mind is crucial to creativity. If you believe you are not, then you will not be until you open your mind to the possibility. You are however... creative. It's just been buried in there somewhere underneath all that pragmatism :)


SimonH said:
I'm a creatively challenged multi-disciplinarian; a jack of all, master of diddly squat. I went to art college, but left in the 3rd year to become a computer programmer. Am I gifted? Nope.
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There's the problem: You deem creativity to be a gift. It isn't. It's something we all possess as children.. in abundance. We get it taught out of us by prescriptive, jaded, cynical adults. So no... you're not gifted, because creativity is not a gift, it's latent in all of us.

SimonH said:
David, I don't want to give the impression that I pooh-pooh anything you achieve with your students. Nothing could be further from the truth. My ex wife is a gifted artist and teacher. My partner-in-crime these days is an accomplished, extraordinarily gifted artist and teacher, as was her father (who I've known since my teens), and as was my father. It is not for a lack of trying, and certainly not for a lack of opportunity, that I've been unable to unlock the "gift" inside me. The problem, for me, is that it's just not there. :shrug:
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You've just not found the key that unlocks that part of your mind yet. Some people never do unless they get the right encouragement. Some people dismiss their own creativity however, because what they produce doesn't seem to fit with what their peers are doing. They take it to heart when people make disparaging comments about their work, or don't understand it, and then vow to make stuff that they like instead, so end up being a facsimile of others instead of true to themselves.

Maybe you don't see creativity in what you do. How often do you post images up for crit?

The one truth about photography is that there is no truth. No right, no wrong. There's technically wrong, yes... I'm a stickler for technical excellence, but creatively, there is no right or wrong, it's personal.

You must daydream, fantasise, reflect, make stuff up in your head, pretend to be a rock star when listing to music, or pretend to be something, or someone, or pretend to be doing something you're not, or would like to be doing. These are abstract creations... this is creativity. Just photograph it.. voila! Furthermore... lose the fear.. take risks. Sometimes it will be an unmitigated disaster... sometimes it won't. What you got to lose?

If you have the technical ability to create what you see in your mind, then there are no barriers.

I truly and firmly believe this.
 
With 3 years of education I would hope to think that everyone could improve on their creativity (being given approaches to use, feedback, coaching etc,.) but what they produce at the end of it is key.
Some are going to be better than others meaning some had something more to start with. That something is maybe the difference we are talking about.
 
ernesto said:
With 3 years of education I would hope to think that everyone could improve on their creativity (being given approaches to use, feedback, coaching etc,.) but what they produce at the end of it is key.
Some are going to be better than others meaning some had something more to start with. That something is maybe the difference we are talking about.
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Or maybe the ones that are better, are just technically better, because that is a skill.. and some work harder than others. Even creativity... some are more creative, yes.. of course.. no two people are the same, and some are MORE creative than others, but that's not what's being discussed :)



SimonH said:
Hmm.. I may be having an epiphany. David, thanks!
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My work here is done... LOL
 
You're welcome.
 
Pookeyhead said:
Or maybe the ones that are better, are just technically better, because that is a skill.. and some work harder than others. Even creativity... some are more creative, yes.. of course.. no two people are the same, and some are MORE creative than others, but that's not what's being discussed :)
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I think it is more around the judgement on the photograph (by the taker of the photograph and by the viewers of it)

Everybody must have some creativity but do they have good creativity or bad creativity and is there even such a thing. It certainly shouldn't be up to a poll or popularity so who is to say one persons photo is creatively worse than anothers.
 
SimonH said:
That's helpful, thank you. I think both statements - yours and mine/treeman's - stand. It's probably helpful to distinguish between a piece of work and a body of work. If, on balance, your body of work isn't commercially viable then you're not going to be able to make a business in photography. At the point where you're able to sustain a high standard of throughput, that changes.

Would you concur?
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Missed this last night - Yes, that's the point.
 
Pookeyhead said:
Are you telling me that it's a co-incidence that every single year, every student graduates with a folio of work that is more creative than when they began? The fact that the work is more creative than when they began surely demonstrates that they have become more creative. I fail to see how you can argue with that logic. If some people were just destined to be uncreative, then THOSE people would never see a creative improvement. That however, never seems to happen. I'm not suggesting everyone ends up being a great photographer, but everyone improves creatively, therefore you can become more creative. Simple.
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Read this thread with interest, and in particular the discussions on 'teaching creativity'.

I have no doubt that the students on your course demonstrate greater apparent creativity at the end of three years of study.

However, there are a couple of points which mean your conclusion that anyone can be taught to be creative may be incorrect.

Firstly, you are basing this on a set of people who have chosen to study photography - these are likely to be people who have a tendency towards creativity (or at least, want to be creative).

Secondly, as mentioned in other posts, it is possible to mimic a subset of 'creativity' by following instructions - the 'rules' of composition, lighting, etc - take enough shots, and some will turn out well!

That said, I do agree it is possible to teach people how to think in a more creative manner - but just as some people are better at mental arithmetic so some are more creative than others, but in both cases with good instruction (and effort on the part of the student) the apparent level of ability can be improved.
 
As in any other marketplace if people like your product they will buy. If they dont they wont.
 
Faldrax said:
Secondly, as mentioned in other posts, it is possible to mimic a subset of 'creativity' by following instructions - the 'rules' of composition, lighting, etc - take enough shots, and some will turn out well!
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Being well composed according to "rules" isn't really being creative though, is it? It's doing what others tell you to do. This is not how I judge creativity.

There are some incredibly competent photographers in here, and they produce incredibly accomplished work... technically... but that doesn't automatically mean it's creative. It could be formulaic and prescriptive, and not very original. There are also a great many beginners who post work that is immensely creative because no one's told them they can't yet. It's rarely more than a few hours before they get told where they went "wrong" though :)

Neither is "right" or "wrong", but don't confuse competence for creativity. You can be very creative, but fall flat your ass when it comes to the technical skill needed to implement it. You need both, but don't assume technical excellence has anything to do with creativity... because it doesn't.

We are all capable of having original thoughts, and that's all creativity is.. having an original thought. Creativity is nothing special, and everyone is capable of it. I think the problem is knowing what it is in the first place, and having the courage to do something different when you know those that don't understand will criticise you for not playing by the rules.
 
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How many uses can you think of for a brick?

I remember being asked this question and think i came up with 9. My wife however came up with over 50 before she stopped. I am a very convergent thinker and to be honest not a creative person, however, as an engineer learnt the technical aspects of photography fairly quickly. Can I learn to be creative? I hope so, and would like to think I am starting to show some of it in my photography. The photography club I am in runs competitions every 6 weeks or so, and I tend to think that the more prescriptive photos usually do well (red coated person on a third lol), which I sometimes find frustrating because anything that breaks the rules tends to be overlooked or even dismissed. I suppose what I am saying is that although there are a lot of stunning images I find myself attracted to images which intrigue me or seem to have a hidden story, probably why like the work of street photographers like Doisneau, Brassai and Cartier-Bresson. How would these images succeed in a competition today?

So I agree with David, but whether my photography will ever be considered creative by other people I will have to wait and see. My wife who is also a photographer often tells me not to put a certain image into a competition as it has no chance of winning but it is an image I am most proud of taking. In fact, I followed her advice and put an image I thought was a bit boring and actually won the comp!

I realise I am just rambling now.........
 
Russell, that is along the same lines as my earlier comment around 'good' or 'bad' creativity. You take a photo where you feel you have been creative. Others can say whether they like the photo or not but cannot say it was not creative, can they?

Everybody is creative to a degree, but not everyone can produce photos that are liked by others but they are not the same thing.
Look to the extremes of modern art and most of the output is very love/hate but some of it takes off while some of it doesn't . Impossible to quantify.
 
psychology said:
The photography club I am in runs competitions every 6 weeks or so, and I tend to think that the more prescriptive photos usually do well (red coated person on a third lol), which I sometimes find frustrating because anything that breaks the rules tends to be overlooked or even dismissed.
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Which is exactly why I dislike camera clubs. They stifle creativity and their "competitions" are nothing more than an exercise to see who can be the most prescriptive. Imagine if you are a very creative person, and all your peers seem to never like your work, it's probable that you will stop being creative because no one approves of what you do.

Being creative means taking risks. Sure... there will be people who will criticise it for not meeting various rules, but you know what? Sod them.

I'd love to sneak a Alec Soth, or Dinu Li print into a local camera club exhibition to see what happens. I bet it would get a royal panning from all the judges.

The fact is, creativity is often taught out of you by those who are less creative than you... and THEIR creativity was taught out of THEM by others who were less creative than THEM.... etc, etc... It's a cycle. Only those strong willed enough to not listen to others hang on to their creativity.

Listen to children talking.. listen to their ideas!! They have no concept of impossible.... none... they imagine things, then they'll just start doing the impossible - the fact thet they may fail is the furthest thing from their minds. Listen to adults talking and it's all reasons why you can't do this, can't do that... it's all pragmatism and rules.

That creativity is still there however in all of us... it just gets suppressed.


Release your inner child :)
 
fabphoto said:
But if it doesn't what does?
Can anybody become a good photographer?

No one will never be an expert. There is always something new to learn in photography. So at what point do you decide your work is good enough that you can sell your services?
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The day you buy a camera if you want to!

Lets be honest there are swarms of people who buy a camera and then the next day setup "insert whatever here Photography".

I see on facebook tons of people saying things like taking wedding bookings now for 2013 etc, professional portraits etc, when their work clearly isn`t all that great.

you can shoot me down and say i`m jealous of that persons work or whatever but i do appreciate a good photographers work, i cannot however do the same for someones work that is below average and clearly poor and selling themselves to death on facebook etc saying they are professional etc.
 
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