70-200 L mk2 - not as clear as I'd hoped, help

joescrivens said:
well then there is no need to disagree then!

with one small change to your point:
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So i was right all along then :runaway:

Just for you Joe :thumbs:

Camera Canon EOS 7D
Exposure 0.017 sec (1/60)
Aperture f/5.6
Focal Length 700 mm
ISO Speed 400


Baby Dipper by Neil Brimacombe, on Flickr

To the OP, spend some time practising what you can get away with shutter speed wise and then practice some more ;)
 
Neil B said:
So i was right all along then
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so are you saying that increasing your shutter speed does not reduce subject blur and the only way to do this is to improve your technique?

Because to me you could do either to reduce subject blur. The better option would be technique, because then you can have lower shutter speeds but that doesn't mean it's not an option.
 
joescrivens said:
so are you saying that increasing your shutter speed does not reduce subject blur and the only way to do this is to improve your technique?

Because to me you could do either to reduce subject blur. The better option would be technique, because then you can have lower shutter speeds but that doesn't mean it's not an option.
Click to expand...

Joe in your early post you quoted " It looks massively like a shutter speed issue " and now " The better option would be technique, because then you can have lower shutter speeds " :thinking:
 
joescrivens said:
so are you saying that increasing your shutter speed does not reduce subject blur and the only way to do this is to improve your technique?

Because to me you could do either to reduce subject blur. The better option would be technique, because then you can have lower shutter speeds but that doesn't mean it's not an option.
Click to expand...

Of course a high shutter speed is preferred but photography is all about learning what works and what doesn't.
If i only used my combo when the shutter speed was equal to the focal length ie 1/800th i wouldn't be getting many days out ;)
 
u8myufo said:
Joe in your early post you quoted " It looks massively like a shutter speed issue " and now " The better option would be technique, because then you can have lower shutter speeds " :thinking:
Click to expand...

That's talking generically. It's better in the long run to improve technique, but that takes hours and hours of practice.

Right now the OP can have an instant impact by raising his shutter speed - would you agree?
 
Neil B said:
Of course a high shutter speed is preferred but photography is all about learning what works and what doesn't.
If i only used my combo when the shutter speed was equal to the focal length ie 1/800th i wouldn't be getting many days out ;)
Click to expand...

I never said you had to get 1/focal length I think that was rich.

You could have increased yours by a whole lot with higher ISO, and on the 7d it has great high ISO performance - but because you have a good technique (was it on a monpod? tripod? beanbag?) you didn't need to
 
Guys, let me just get one thing straight - there is no way I would crop a shot of mine like that, I just wanted to highlight that it wasn't as clear as I had hoped...the crop was to prove a point.

I very much believe this is an issue with...wait for it...shutter speed, and missed focus. I intend to do the static object test this evening and will report back with my findings.
 
joescrivens said:
That's talking generically. It's better in the long run to improve technique, but that takes hours and hours of practice.

Right now the OP can have an instant impact by raising his shutter speed - would you agree?
Click to expand...

Well the camera never lies so i would say practice, treat the shutter button like a woman and be nice and gentle when it's slow speed :D
 
jetpackjack said:
Guys, let me just get one thing straight - there is no way I would crop a shot of mine like that, I just wanted to highlight that it wasn't as clear as I had hoped...the crop was to prove a point.

I very much believe this is an issue with...wait for it...shutter speed, and missed focus. I intend to do the static object test this evening and will report back with my findings.
Click to expand...

Should be a super sharp set up and good luck with getting it sorted :thumbs:
At least you've met Joe now :D
 
I hadn't noticed there was a whole other page to this post until now - I've been laughing my way through. My technique isn't great, I'll admit that. This is something I'm new to and will need to practice my technique. I've also only just had the camera and lens for a little under 2 weeks so I also need to learn how best to use the tools.

I think it's great to discuss things on here though (and in some cases disagree), I've learnt a great deal already.
 
hi all
just to weigh in....
the kit is excellent but there are things that would concern me, I think it's focussed on the leaf, not the bird, and apart from the obvious shutter speed issue at a focal length of 380mm I think the aperture is completely wrong with the use of a 2x TC.
I've found that on my sigma TC and similar lens that although you r TC will give you more range and that you lose a stop of light, you need to restrict yourself again deliberately to maintain sharpness.
so if your 2.8 lens is great, but even better at f4.
then your TC+lens combination is pretty good at f5.6 but pretty great at f8 or f9
For this should I would have used ISO 800-1200 (not a problem on a 5Dii surely)
centre focusing on the bird and f9, then see what shutter speed you have which should ideally be faster than 1/250-1/350 considering the focal length (plus some lovely IS).

just my tuppence. would love to see your further results :)

p.s also a monopod is great for this, what they're designed for even!
 
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Neil B said:
So i was right all along then :runaway:

Just for you Joe :thumbs:

Camera Canon EOS 7D
Exposure 0.017 sec (1/60)
Aperture f/5.6
Focal Length 700 mm
ISO Speed 400


Baby Dipper by Neil Brimacombe, on Flickr


To the OP, spend some time practising what you can get away with shutter speed wise and then practice some more ;)
Click to expand...

That is one nice shot.
Was a tripod ot mono pod used when this was taken???

spike
 
joescrivens said:
I never said you had to get 1/focal length I think that was rich.

You could have increased yours by a whole lot with higher ISO, and on the 7d it has great high ISO performance - but because you have a good technique (was it on a monpod? tripod? beanbag?) you didn't need to
Click to expand...

I could of upped the iso BUT the 7D ain't that great and this is a fairly big crop. Baby Dippers sit very still until the parents arrive so i knew i could get away with it, leaning against a tree does help but that's all part of the technique ;)

jetpackjack said:
I hadn't noticed there was a whole other page to this post until now - I've been laughing my way through. My technique isn't great, I'll admit that. This is something I'm new to and will need to practice my technique. I've also only just had the camera and lens for a little under 2 weeks so I also need to learn how best to use the tools.

I think it's great to discuss things on here though (and in some cases disagree), I've learnt a great deal already.
Click to expand...

Look forward to seeing some of your shots in the bird section soon :thumbs:
 
joescrivens said:
well then I have a link for you!!!

ISO 5000 from the 7d


IMG_0272 by JoeBoyMan, on Flickr
Click to expand...

Proves my point
Not cropped
Loads of light
No shadow areas where noise shows most
Still noisy
1/125th @ 155mm you nearly got to the must have ratio :lol:
But i hope you had a nice day out at the zoo ;)
 
jetpackjack said:
Guys, let me just get one thing straight - there is no way I would crop a shot of mine like that, I just wanted to highlight that it wasn't as clear as I had hoped...the crop was to prove a point.

I very much believe this is an issue with...wait for it...shutter speed, and missed focus. I intend to do the static object test this evening and will report back with my findings.
Click to expand...

But in all honesty it has not really proved that much imo, as Ade says when you crop like that you are going into the world of Pixles and beyond, so it does not give a true representation. The originals are far better for observation purposes. Unless I have missed it there has been no mention of editing, how proficiant do you think you are at it? Again unless I missed it did you shoot Raw? You have obviously not had time to try different in camera settings either other than the obvious ones, I would be very surprised if micro adjustment is your problem tbh. Joe, yes I did reccomend raising shutter speed, however I did not contradict myself and tell him to use a slower one as it appeared to me you did, correct me there if I am wrong.Neil, I can see where you are coming from regards technique but I am surprised about practising first with what you can get away with. Surely shutter speed is one of the main priorities for sombebody new to this, having a faster shutter makes perfecting your technique easier to start, he can then if he wishes work down. I would not expect somebody learning to drive to be shoved out on the motorway when it is chaos and then be taught to drive on the side streets later on. I would be interested in your thoughts about that. Going back to the Blue tit and putting focus to one side for a moment, considering all that has been done in the first place it is not much more than I would expect. A quick edit but less of a crop. If the OP expects far more detail given the size of the subject :shrug: then I will stand by my word and say it is very unlikely to happen unless you put all that has been said into practice and perfected it a bit more. A good insight to all on the subject and for once has not strayed far away from the point of the thread. Keep it up guy`s your all being so lovely here and getting on :lol::lol:

IMG_3461-3.jpg
 
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Neil B said:
Proves my point
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There we will have to agree to disagree since most of what you wrote next was completely wrong!

Including the part about the zoo! It wasn't a nice day and it wasn't a zoo! :lol:
 
I agree Rich with the learning bit but for me i had no choice, you know Dippers are my bird of choice and so this forced me to learn how to shoot slow shutter speeds, i don't think I've ever taken one with the "ideal" shutter speed.
Every part of bird photography seems hard when you start out and still is sometimes but knowing that you can adapt to the situation gives that bit more confidence. Like i said, living in Yorkshire makes you good at these sort of shutter speeds and believe me i would love to have more light.
Some great points raised in this thread for a change :thumbs:
 
joescrivens said:
There we will have to agree to disagree since most of what you wrote next was completely wrong!

Including the part about the zoo! It wasn't a nice day and it wasn't a zoo! :lol:
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You carry on like that Joe and i can see me and you being friends :naughty:
 
u8myufo said:
Joe, yes I did reccomend raising shutter speed, however I did not contradict myself and tell him to use a slower one as it appeared to me you did, correct me there if I am wrong.
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I can't correct you about you saying he should use a slower shutter speed, but I will correct you for twisting what I had said.

To clarify, I suggest a higher shutter speed until which point you ave mastered the technique of not needing to ala Neil B.

Hows that rich? Clear enough? :thumbs:
 
joescrivens said:
I can't correct you about you saying he should use a slower shutter speed, but I will correct you for twisting what I had said.

To clarify, I suggest a higher shutter speed until which point you ave mastered the technique of not needing to ala Neil B.

Hows that rich? Clear enough? :thumbs:
Click to expand...

Apologies Joe :thumbs: I was trying to read and reply to all this with SWMBO asking me what I wanted for dinner tonight. I made a suggestion only to get a reply " I dont really fancy that " :shake::shake: No pleasing them!!
 
Bit of an update guys, I was out this morning and took a few shots with my newly acquired knowledge and I have to say I'm much happier with results - despite this possibly being the ugliest bird I think I've ever seen!

IMG_3598Large.jpg

IMG_3598-2Large.jpg


EXIF

File Size: 240 kb - 1023 x 682

Camera Make: Canon

Camera Model: Canon EOS 5D Mark II

Date/Time: 2012:07:13 08:01:36

Resolution: 1023 x 682

Flash Used: No

Focal Length: 200.0mm (35mm equivalent: -21...

Exposure Time: 0.0010 s (1/1000)

Aperture: f/2.8

Focus Dist.: 8.29m

ISO Equiv.: 100

Whitebalance: Auto

Metering Mode: pattern

Exposure: aperture priority (semi-auto)

======= IPTC Data: =======

Record Vers.: 4

Date Created: 20120713

Time Created: 080136-0600

THANKS FOR ALL THE HELP
 
It should be a lot sharper but it looks like the subject/you were moving? F4 would have been better. A wee sharpen in PS

1111msf.jpg
 
joescrivens said:
actually the DOF is the least of their worries. At those focal length and distances you have a DOF of 25cm which will be more than enough given the bird is only a few inches wide.

It looks massively like a shutter speed issue to me followed by missfocussing both made worse by the heavy crop
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What if his focus point is off (and it is in imo) the dof will be an issue. The one shot looks as if his focus point is on the leaf and not the bird (behind) the leaf. With that shallow of a dof on that focus point the bird focus never had a chance.:bonk:
 
shaylou said:
What if his focus point is off (and it is in imo) the dof will be an issue. The one shot looks as if his focus point is on the leaf and not the bird (behind) the leaf. With that shallow of a dof on that focus point the bird focus never had a chance.:bonk:
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well it would be really bad practice to increase your dof in the event that you focus on the wrong thing. In that event you should be making sure you are focussing on your subject and not on random objects around it
 
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