70-200 L mk2 - not as clear as I'd hoped, help

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Lyle
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Hi Guys,

So I was out at Saltholme Marsh, the RSPB reserve so that I could test out my new Canon 70-200mm L mk2 on the Canon 5Dmk2. I found some bluetits where I was relatively close up and started shooting. All felt good but when I've come home and run them through lightroom I'm dissapointed that they aren't absolutely crystal clear!

Here's the cropped shot with the exif below. Any clues!?

IMG_3461.jpg


File Name: IMG_3461.jpg (Edit)
File Size: 184 kb - 1024 x 683

Camera Make: Canon

Camera Model: Canon EOS 5D Mark II

Date/Time: 2012:07:06 11:20:55

Resolution: 1024 x 683

Flash Used: No

Focal Length: 380.0mm (35mm equivalent: -21...

Exposure Time: 0.0056 s (1/180)

Aperture: f/5.6

Focus Dist.: 5.98m

ISO Equiv.: 200

Whitebalance: Auto

Metering Mode: pattern

Exposure: aperture priority (semi-auto)

======= IPTC Data: =======

Record Vers.: 4

Date Created: 20120706

Time Created: 112055-0600
 
Yep, its out of focus. Not likely to be a fault with either lens or camera, but if your camera does micro adjust then its worth doing.

Also, 1/180 shutter speed is quite low. Did you use a converter as your exif says 380mm focal length, and focus distance of around 6 metres will never help due to the crop needed.

Mike
 
Hi yes I've got a canon x2 converter. What do you mean by focus distance of 6 metres will never help - do you think I should shoot without the converter?

I used auto focus and felt like it was dead-on. All the shots look like this, there isn't one clean shot.

I've never heard of micro adjusting?
 
Were you using single point and focusing on the eye?

Looks like focus is over to the right, think you need to run more tests before messing about with micro adjust

Also check if you bought the camera used that the previous owner hasn't messsed abaout with the micro adjust
 
First of all try shooting a stationary subject without the converter using a high shutter sreed - 1/500th or quicker. Make the subject something with lots of detail that can look sharp. Brick walls, rulers etc are always popular test subjects. You should get a sharp (if uniteresting) shot. That means your camera and lens are fine.

Then try the same shot with the converter and hopefully that will be fine as well. You can then rule out equipment error.

Micro adjust is a feature (not sure if your camera has it to be honest) that get the camera and lens focussing perfectly together. Due to manufacturing intolerences some combinations need a little tweak to get the focussing bang on. Do a search on here to see how its done.

Shooting birds is not easy, and you will get a failure rate with the focussing, sometimes you won't notice this at the time of shooting.

Next, shooting a small bird 6 metres away will require a large crop which will show up all technical faults more and more.

Also, bear in mind the shutter speed. 1/180th sounds fast but in reality its not, especially with an effective focal length of 380mm as you've used.

Mike
 
brilliant, awesome answers guys.

Thanks I'll give the test a go. The camera was bought used but I've reset to factory settings so it should be ok.

I'll give the test a go and report back.
 
Resetting to factory settings doesn't reset custom settings, that's a separate clear in the custom settings menu (not sure which one resets micro adjust if either)

Very easy to get focus on something like a leaf when shooting birds, let us know how the tests go.
 
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not a canon user but the nikon version is very much the same.
I was out with someone who had just bought this lens and they were commenting on how it didn't seem to lock focus, well in line with my nikon the focusing is very quick and just a slight movement when you hit the shuttter can put the focus on something else.
Had it happen to me endless times with water birds where the focus will swtich to a drop of water
 
The focus seems to be in line with the tail of the tit and the leaves on the right, also theres motion blur there probably due to the slow shutter speed, a tripod with mirror lockup and maybe even a remote shutter release (got a wired one for £7-ebay) makes a huge difference. Well it did when I tried moon shots ages ago so I assume it applies to birding.
 
OK guys so here is the uncropped version of the image in the original post

IMG_3461-2.jpg



Also here's another - both cropped and uncropped to show you similar issues. It looks more to me like the IS isn't working properly on this one but I could be wrong.

IMG_3469-2.jpg


IMG_3469.jpg


EXIF

File Name: IMG_3469.jpg (Edit)

File Size: 192 kb - 1023 x 682

Camera Make: Canon

Camera Model: Canon EOS 5D Mark II

Date/Time: 2012:07:06 11:25:20

Resolution: 1023 x 682

Flash Used: No

Focal Length: 360.0mm (35mm equivalent: -21...

Exposure Time: 0.011 s (1/90)

Aperture: f/5.6

Focus Dist.: 9.77m

ISO Equiv.: 200

Whitebalance: Auto

Metering Mode: pattern

Exposure: aperture priority (semi-auto)

======= IPTC Data: =======

Record Vers.: 4

Date Created: 20120706

Time Created: 112520-0600
 
Not great I must say, really do need to test on something else that will show if there is anything wrong other than missed focus and camera shake

If you haven't got a tripod place the camera on a solid surface and use the self timer, some books in a bookcase would be fine as a target
 
As I suspected...
That's a pretty heavy crop.
You cant expect stellar results when you're cropping out about 90% of the shot.
Added to that, you've introduced another piece of glass and dropped one f stop by using the 2X converter and not shooting in great light with an ISO that was too low also.
As has already been mentioned, you shutter speed was far too slow as well.

There's nothing wrong with your lens, other than your expectations are far too high given what settings you were using.

The first question that comes to my mind, is why were you only using an ISO of 200 given that it was obviously fairly low light?
 
You have a 5D which has very good ISO performance. 1/90 shutter speed is right on the limit even for 4 stop IS. increase the ISO to 800 or 1600 so you get a faster shutter speed.
 
do you have any shots with a shutter speed greater that 300th of a second ?
also with DDP - you should be able to see the focus point used check that info as well

360mm and 1/90th - is never going to be sharp- unless on a tripod/monopod in my view - even with IS
especially if new to the camera/lens
 
Thanks guys, from doing this post it has become apparent that the shutter speed is way too slow. I'm going to test the lens as many of you have said and if all is well ill put it down to user error!
 
I used to shoot hand held with my 100-400 on the bird feeder as I could always get reasonably high shutter speed, but I was never happy with all of the pics, and was finding alot where more luck than judgement.
The last twice I have used a tripod even with high shutter speeds and boy what differnce, the keeper rate was up significantly and the shots just seemed alot clearer.

Like above posts have said test your gear in a controlled enviroment with static objects on a tri pod etc and see what the results are like, if they are sharp and clear then the gear is fine and its user error.
Oh do not know if you know this but when gear is on the tripod turn OFF the IS as it just fights against itself and does not give good results.

spike
 
As mentioned ISO is too low, shutter speed too slow and you will have a very narrow dof using an aperture of F5.6 You have then tried to capture a bird just over 5 inches in length and at a distance of nearly 10metres. All this with a full frame camera, cropped it to death and you are hoping to get a quality picture :thinking: Sorry it aint going to happen imo. If bird photography is what you wish to pursue then might I suggest you have a look at the vast amount of information people have gone to the trouble of writing online about the subject.
 
You are cropping the bejesus out of them. When you do that you have very few pixels left, so you can`t really expect a clean and sharp shot to be honest.

Get closer to the subject and up your shutter speed,stop the lens down and see how you go on.
 
u8myufo said:
you will have a very narrow dof using an aperture of F5.6 You have then tried to capture a bird just over 5 inches in length and at a distance of nearly 10metres.
Click to expand...

actually the DOF is the least of their worries. At those focal length and distances you have a DOF of 25cm which will be more than enough given the bird is only a few inches wide.

It looks massively like a shutter speed issue to me followed by missfocussing both made worse by the heavy crop
 
joescrivens said:
actually the DOF is the least of their worries. At those focal length and distances you have a DOF of 25cm which will be more than enough given the bird is only a few inches wide.

It looks massively like a shutter speed issue to me followed by missfocussing both made worse by the heavy crop
Click to expand...

I understand what it equates to Joe but you have failed to notice the branch and feeders in the shot, unless he can get single spot focus smack on the subject then he has a problem on his hands ;)
To my eye the feeder in the Greenfinch shot is in focus, given that the feeder is aprox 3 inches wide and the subjects head is aprox another inch or so beyond that again, your 4inches of DOF you had to start with has now all but gone, a combination of all suggestions would produce a sharper shot, but as Ade points out it is the crop that has killed it
 
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Ah the old shutter speed quote, again and again and again........ :bonk: :bang: :gag: :help: :lol:
 
u8myufo said:
I understand what it equates to Joe but you have failed to notice the branch and feeders in the shot, unless he can get single spot focus smack on the subject then he has a problem on his hands ;)
To my eye the feeder in the Greenfinch shot is in focus, given that the feeder is aprox 3 inches wide and the subjects head is aprox another inch or so beyond that again, your 4inches of DOF you had to start with has now all but gone, a combination of all suggestions would produce a sharper shot, but as Ade points out it is the crop that has killed it
Click to expand...

oh i see them, but thats because he has miss focussed, not because his DOF was too small. Dof is fine at those settings, it's the misfocussing, shutter speed and the crop that has done it.

It shouldn't be hard to get a single focus point on the subject, it's big enough.
 
joescrivens said:
oh i see them, but thats because he has miss focussed, not because his DOF was too small. Dof is fine at those settings, it's the misfocussing, shutter speed and the crop that has done it.

It shouldn't be hard to get a single focus point on the subject, it's big enough.
Click to expand...

Any more for the shutter speed quote before i put some links up :suspect:
 
joescrivens said:
oh i see them, but thats because he has miss focussed, not because his DOF was too small. Dof is fine at those settings, it's the misfocussing, shutter speed and the crop that has done it.

It shouldn't be hard to get a single focus point on the subject, it's big enough.
Click to expand...

Cheers Joe for putting me straight on that :thumbs:
 
u8myufo said:
Cheers Joe for putting me straight on that :thumbs:
Click to expand...

I think you know anyway. The reason I make a point of the DOF being large enough is that otherwise the OP might stop down more and then he's going to get even lower shutter speeds than he has already and/or have to increase the ISO even more than needed.

if you see what i mean?
 
Neil B said:
http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=419596
exif is at the bottom of the pic if you can't find it, i won't put any of my own up as that would be a touch rude ;)

I've included this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technique to replace "shutter speed" quote
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what your point is?

Is it that people can take very good shots with a low shutter? If so then yes we all know what is possible.

But for the most part it is very difficult, takes lots of practice, etc etc.

Too low a shutter speed for the focal length is often the cause of subject blur - it doesn't mean that some people can't nail it.

If your point was something else then please explain? :shrug:
 
joescrivens said:
I think you know anyway. The reason I make a point of the DOF being large enough is that otherwise the OP might stop down more and then he's going to get even lower shutter speeds than he has already and/or have to increase the ISO even more than needed.

if you see what i mean?
Click to expand...

I mentioned the aperture Joe given the circumstances of the feeder and branch hindering the Greenfinch. In the case of the Bt it had leaves in front of it, and the larger leaf just above the feeder handle is clearly what is in focus and not the subject. I am not sure if single point focus was used or not. Back to the Greenfinch I would have personaly used the aperture I suggested to allow more room for focusing error and movement of subject. If you check out post #11 here Joe You would expect the OP to have a little understanding about a few things. Therefore if changing to something like F7.1 the rest of the setting changes should come naturaly, and I would have thought that if you pushed the ISO up to 1200 plus on the 5D it would still cope quite well. But in a Nutshell taking pics of Birds is like any other genre, it comes with it`s own set of rules which you need to follow. Once you have aquired a good technique and a better understanding of what you can get away with, you can then afford to ignore some of them.
 
u8myufo said:
I mentioned the aperture Joe given the circumstances of the feeder and branch hindering the Greenfinch. In the case of the Bt it had leaves in front of it, and the larger leaf just above the feeder handle is clearly what is in focus and not the subject. I am not sure if single point focus was used or not. Back to the Greenfinch I would have personaly used the aperture I suggested to allow more room for focusing error and movement of subject. If you check out post #11 here Joe You would expect the OP to have a little understanding about a few things. Therefore if changing to something like F7.1 the rest of the setting changes should come naturaly, and I would have thought that if you pushed the ISO up to 1200 plus on the 5D it would still cope quite well. But in a Nutshell taking pics of Birds is like any other genre, it comes with it`s own set of rules which you need to follow. Once you have aquired a good technique and a better understanding of what you can get away with, you can then afford to ignore some of them.
Click to expand...

I understand why you would suggest it. Personally I think the OP should work more on the focussing skill and holding the lens still - but we all have our own techniques :thumbs:
 
joescrivens said:
I understand why you would suggest it. Personally I think the OP should work more on the focussing skill and holding the lens still - but we all have our own techniques :thumbs:
Click to expand...

Well lets try to sum it all up for him then ;)

1. Get in as close as you can to your subjects. For Blue tits, Great tits, Robins I would suggest a minimum of 3-4 mtrs given the kit. You will have to do a bit of homework for yourself to discover which other species are more nervous, once you have discovered the nervous ones you will then need to practise your fieldcraft to get closer to them. An understanding of which ones you should stay well clear from due to being protected would be a good thing as well.

2. Get to know your subjects behaviour patterns as much as possible, you will have a better chance of anticipating their movements.

3. Single point focus.... AI servo.

4. Keep your shutter equal to or greater than the focal length you are using. For example if at 300mm then aim for a shutter of 1/300 or greater, as mentioned the faster the better. If light is poor then up the ISO.

5. A Tripod, monopod or Beanbag for support.

6. Whilst using any of the above it will still require a very steady technique of firing the camera.

These should do you for now although others might well suggest more for you.
 
joescrivens said:
I'm not sure what your point is?

Is it that people can take very good shots with a low shutter? If so then yes we all know what is possible.

But for the most part it is very difficult, takes lots of practice, etc etc.

Too low a shutter speed for the focal length is often the cause of subject blur - it doesn't mean that some people can't nail it.

If your point was something else then please explain? :shrug:
Click to expand...

My point is that shutter speed has nothing to do with this shoot being OOF, it's all down to the technique. As for "lots of practise" i agree with that, try living in Yorkshire where the sun never shines and standard iso is 800, you soon get used to slow shutter speeds.
 
Neil B said:
My point is that shutter speed has nothing to do with this shoot being OOF, it's all down to the technique. As for "lots of practise" i agree with that, try living in Yorkshire where the sun never shines and standard iso is 800, you soon get used to slow shutter speeds.
Click to expand...

Shutter speed doesn't make it out of focus but it does add subject blur. In this example I see subject blur which is affecting the sharpness. Even the section that is in focus is not as sharp as it should be with this lens which to me means that his shutter speed is too low because it is showing subject blur.
 
joescrivens said:
Shutter speed doesn't make it out of focus but it does add subject blur. In this example I see subject blur which is affecting the sharpness. Even the section that is in focus is not as sharp as it should be with this lens which to me means that his shutter speed is too low because it is showing subject blur.
Click to expand...

That would make a great tongue twister after a beer or 3, :thumbs:
I know this may not happen to you often but i think it's best if we agree to disagree :lol:
 
Neil B said:
That would make a great tongue twister after a beer or 3, :thumbs:
I know this may not happen to you often but i think it's best if we agree to disagree :lol:
Click to expand...

what are we agreeing to disagree about:

1) that a low shutter speed can result in subject blur
2) that there is evidence of subject blur in the OP's two images?
 
joescrivens said:
what are we agreeing to disagree about:

1) that a low shutter speed can result in subject blur If you have a poor technique
2) that there is evidence of subject blur in the OP's two images? :thumbs: he has to practice his technique
Click to expand...

Correct we seem to agree :thinking:
 
joescrivens said:
well then there is no need to disagree then!

with one small change to your point:
Click to expand...

Have you been on holiday Joe? It`s been bloody quiet around here lately, untill now that is :lol: ;)
 
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