6400 ISO Sample

You're welcome.

Here's my take on it, and the way to visualise how things might pan out. The graphic below represents a dynamic range covering several stops, from -10 below the 0 mark on the camera's meter, right up to +6 stops above the 0 point. Typically you will find that cameras will start clipping data at exposures brighter than +3 above the meter. However, between +3 and +4, if you shoot raw you can typically recover quite a bit of data in that zone. Beyond that the data is pure white and is destroyed permanently. If your exposure looks too bright, but contains all the data you require, you can darkenn the image to make it look correct, and at the same time you will be pushing the noisier data deeper down into the invisible blacks, where it will not show up.

Below the 0 mark, the deeper the tones become, the less signal (light) there is and the more intrusive noise becomes, both that occurring naturally in the light itself, plus that which is part of the camera's own electronics. To the far left the noise becomes very bad, and at the extreme left there is no signal at all - everything is pure black and cannot be recovered.

The light blue bars below the main block represents how a scene containing 10 stops of dynamic range might fall within the camera's capability to record those tones, depending upon how brightly you choose to expose. As you increase the exposure you start to push the highlights into the "recovery" zone, but go too far and you end up clipping the brightest parts, which become a pure, featureless white. However, by increasing the exposure you are lifting the shadow details higher above the noise threshold.

Conversely, as you reduce the exposure more and more, you are wasting the dynamic range offered by the camera at the highlight end (the pink areas), while plunging your shadow data deeper and deeper into the noise, ultimately losing it forever as unrecoverable black. If you try to brighten the image in post you will end up brightening the noise in the "noisey zone" along with the image data. Anything that was recorded as pure black can not be restored.

20100322_120145_LR.jpg


It's a crude and simplistic graphic, perhaps not even terribly accurate (although not miles form the truth), but hopefully it helps illustrate the point.

The greater the dynamic range of a scene (think sunny day or any harsh lighting with deep shadows and brilliant highlights), the more important it is that you ETTR in order to maximise the DR offered by the camera. If you have a scene with very low dynamic range, such as a foggy day, when everything is just sort of greyish, then it is not so important to squeeze the last drop of DR from the camera. An exposure centred around the 0 mark should be just fine. However, underexposing is never the best option to pick if you have alternatives available.

By the way, in my basketball shot, posted earlier, you may notice that I pulled down the exposure in Lightroom by 0.7 stops (2/3 stop if you prefer). From this, and looking at the histogram after the edit, you might infer, correctly, that I was ETTRing for all I was worth. At f/2.8 my aperture was wide open, and there was no way I was going to try to shoot basketball at shutter speeds below 1/250. My choice on ISO was to shoot at 3200, and never touch the right hand side of the histogram, or bump it up to 6400 and squeeze my capture into the raw recovery zone, knowing I could pull the exposure back down in post. In so doing, the darker areas of the image, with noise already being of concern, could at least be reduced and dimished, rather than being amplified by brightening them in post.

An interesting post, Tim. One thing I'd like to clear up, my understanding of dynamic range was that in 8 bit with a contrast ratio of 256:1 the best you'd get out of your A/D converter is 8 stops, of course this goes up as you go to 12/14/16 bit precision but my understanding was that in reality you'll only get at best 7 stops of dynamic range. Therefore your diagram (which I like and is a good graphic way of illustrating your point) which assumes 10 stops may be slightly misleading? (although the principle remains the same)
I look forward to your comments!!

George.
 
I'm really struggling with that bit of your post. If you have enough light to over expose why would you not reduce the ISO to improve the noise?

Hope I'm not the third trying to defend ! my comments about giving Canon users some hope was tongue in cheek, just a little fun or is that not allowed any more:D

The op sample is not a good representation of what a D3 can do in fact far from it, clearly ISO performance has moved on across all brands.

As for your comments, I absolutely agree in this instance you would, putting that aside and assuming he change nothing but dialling in a stop or two to over expose would have produced a much better picture. So in essence my point was to get the most out of high ISO shooting over exposing and pulling back post processing helps enormously.

Sorry should have been a little clearer.

Cheers
 
An interesting post, Tim. One thing I'd like to clear up, my understanding of dynamic range was that in 8 bit with a contrast ratio of 256:1 the best you'd get out of your A/D converter is 8 stops, of course this goes up as you go to 12/14/16 bit precision but my understanding was that in reality you'll only get at best 7 stops of dynamic range. Therefore your diagram (which I like and is a good graphic way of illustrating your point) which assumes 10 stops may be slightly misleading? (although the principle remains the same)
I look forward to your comments!!

George.

The dynamic range might be either compressed, or clipped, or a bit of both if you shoot straight to JPEG, but the fact is that the camera initially makes a raw capture internally, which includes a much larger range of data than 8 bit can hold. Older cameras only have 12 bit raw files, while newer ones have 14 bit raw files. Some will argue that some of that data is already too buried in noise to be useful, but the camera certainly has the potential, initially, to capture a whole lot more than just 7 stops. If you shoot to raw then that data is yours to do with as you please, and to shift around a bit before finally squeezing it into an 8 bit shoebox. If you shoot straight to JPEG then the camera has already made your decisions for you, maybe with an aggressive tone curve that clips highs and lows too soon, or maybe with an exposure that fails to make the most of the DR possible.

If you look at the data from reviews by DPReview, for example, or data on DXO, you will see that clearly the cameras can easily exceed 7-8 stops of DR. Scroll down this page until you get to the section on RAW Headroom - http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos1dmarkIV/page19.asp - Where you will see that 12 stops of DR can be squeezed out of a 1D4 raw file if you get creative with your raw processing software. A 7D, it appears, can only capture 9.8 stops of DR when shooting raw - http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos7d/page17.asp. - which is still better than the 8.3 stops from an SOOC JPEG.

DXOMark puts the 7D a little higher than DPReview, but all modern cameras with decent sized sensors do a pretty decent job - http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/en...0/(brand)/Canon/(brand2)/Canon/(brand3)/Nikon. Click the Dynamic Range tab and the click on the Print tab to see how they compare when output/display sizes are normalised.

Roger Clark has performed a detailed scientific analysis of the 7D sensor, and other cameras. Results for the 7D show a DR of up to 11.1 stops - http://www.clarkvision.com/articles/evaluation-canon-7d/index.html
 
That seems high for an APS-C DSLR.

There seem to be different ways of measuring DR. Some seem to prefer an engineering approach and look at zero signal to saturation and this will give a higher number than the method others prefer, to look at what gives full detail above and below middle grey before the nasties take over and you can't see full detail. I suspect that this high number for the 7D is a measurement of zero to saturation and if it is it should probably mean less to photographers than what is actually visible.

There's been a lot of argument about DR recently...

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/h3d50ii.shtml#update
 
I have to say that's a lot noisier than examples I've been getting from my own D3 - in addition it looks underexposed, so maybe the OP should have gone to H1.0 or H2.0...
 
Yeah I shall repost with a netter image, I know it was at 440/s but tht point was just to push the noise! I shall try again, God it's easy to annoy canon users.
 
Confusedious say: too much attention being paid to capturing far end of fart. Images lost in meantime.
 
Yeah I shall repost with a netter image, I know it was at 440/s but tht point was just to push the noise! I shall try again, God it's easy to annoy canon users.

it's not that you've annoyed canon users, it's that you posted something you claimed was incredible and there are very few people, canon or otherwise in the thread who agree that your sample was incredible. If you post another example and it is incredible then you'll see people agreeing with you
 
That seems high for an APS-C DSLR.[/url]
Roger's figure appears to be derived from a straight division of full well capacity (electrons) divided by read noise (electrons), yielding a figure of a little over 2048 at 200 ISO, which converts to a DR of 11.1 stops. So that does seem more like absolute, "scientific" calculation of DR, but at least it is based on clearly defined mathematics rather than somebody randomly throwing out figures in an article with absolutely nothing other than "opinion" and rather wooly terms like "full texture and detail" to substantiate them.

Personally I'm not too bothered what the figures are. I'm more interested in what I, as a photographer, should be doing to extract the best performance I can from my equipment. For starters, I'd say that should include shooting raw and exposing to the right. Once I've done my bit properly, then I am in a position to determine whether the camera has done an adequate job itself.
 
it's not that you've annoyed canon users, it's that you posted something you claimed was incredible and there are very few people, canon or otherwise in the thread who agree that your sample was incredible. If you post another example and it is incredible then you'll see people agreeing with you

Yup basically.
 
An interesting post, Tim. One thing I'd like to clear up, my understanding of dynamic range was that in 8 bit with a contrast ratio of 256:1 the best you'd get out of your A/D converter is 8 stops, of course this goes up as you go to 12/14/16 bit precision but my understanding was that in reality you'll only get at best 7 stops of dynamic range. Therefore your diagram (which I like and is a good graphic way of illustrating your point) which assumes 10 stops may be slightly misleading? (although the principle remains the same)
I look forward to your comments!!

George.

I'm pretty sure 5dII is 12bit but aint certain
 
tdodd - "rather than somebody randomly throwing out figures in an article with absolutely nothing other than "opinion" and rather wooly terms like "full texture and detail" to substantiate them."

Yeah, you're right to so easily dismiss what they say. What do these people on Luminous Landscape and their tame professionals know anyway? It's obviously better to rely on numbers on a page rather than what you can see. That's what photography is about after all isn't it? Numbers on a page are so much better than what you can see in a printed photo.

All I was doing was pointing out that there are different ways of looking at DR.
 
Pixel peepers.... give me strength!!!!!

The example seems pretty good to me and for press photography I'd be more than happy with that. That shot of the basketball player on the 7D is very good too.

Whichever way you look at we're pretty bloody lucky these days to have such capable cameras - one of these days some of you might actually get out there and take a photo instead of just talking about it.... ::bang:
 
Managed to find a test that uses a step wedge -

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos7d/page17.asp

Anyone who has ever seen a step wedge test will realise that no matter what the machine and the numbers say what you can see is what matters.

Well it's interesting that you've linked to exactly the same page that I linked to in my earlier post, a page which explains the difficulty of agreeing a definition of DR, but having explained their interpretion in a quantifiable way - a way which seems not to be at odds with Michael Reichmann's somewhat looser definition - comes to a figure of 8.3 stops of DR for JPEG and 9.8 stops of DR for a hand crafted raw file.

Yet somehow you would rather stand by the anecdotal figure of 6-7 stops of DR for DSLRs. One should probably assume that, since the 7D only has a titchy APS-C sensor, stuffed full of tiny pixels, it is probably at the lower end of that scale. Obviously Michael Reichmann's broad brush statements must outweigh any specific test results, so perhaps you'd better let DPReview know how flawed their findings are. There's certainly no point picking arguments with me about it.
 
for an attic with no light how do you get shadows on the boxes :thinking:
 
Pixel peepers.... give me strength!!!!!

The example seems pretty good to me and for press photography I'd be more than happy with that. That shot of the basketball player on the 7D is very good too.

Whichever way you look at we're pretty bloody lucky these days to have such capable cameras - one of these days some of you might actually get out there and take a photo instead of just talking about it.... ::bang:

i don't think we're pixel peeping, and none of us are claiming this isn't acceptable. Let's be clear....

the OP considers this to be incredible ISO performance, but we've all seen much better examples on nikon and canon's. The debate is that this isn't an incredible example as suggested. Not that it is poor performance - just not the level that seems to be claimed
 
key·board war·ri·or
-noun

1. A Person who, being unable to express his anger through physical violence (owning to their physical weakness, lack of bravery and/or conviction in real life), instead manifests said emotions through the text-based medium of the internet, usually in the form of aggressive writing that the Keyboard Warrior would not (for reasons previously mentioned) be able to give form to in real life.
2. The term is a combination of the word 'keyboard' (the main tool by which the person expresses his/her latent rage) and 'warrior' (due to the warrior-like aggression, tendency towards violence, headstrong nature and propensity towards brute force as a means of resolving conflict rather than more subtle means dependant on finesse).
3. The Keyboard Warrior seeks to use the power imbued in his 'weapon' to effect death and destruction (in a strictly-metaphorical sense) upon his foes (other virtual identities he has encountered on the internet). In essence, the keyboard (ie. text input ability) allows the keyboard warrior to manifest his true warrior nature in a safe and removed environment, from which no real-life repercussions .
4. Keyboard Warriors are generally identified by unneccessary rage in their written communications, and are regarded as 'losers' by other virtual identities on the internet.
:shake:
 
there you go, thats miles more impressive than the OPs image. OP take note! :thumbs:

....although it's a totally different benchmark you're working from now....and several £100 more... and a few years newer technology....in a different lighting situation...;)

Phew, I'm well glad I've got a crappy old D2X that doesn't even have ISO 6400 :D
 
....although it's a totally different benchmark you're working from now....and several £100 more... and a few years newer technology....in a different lighting situation...;)

Phew, I'm well glad I've got a crappy old D2X that doesn't even have ISO 6400 :D

There's also clearly more light in this sample too
 
nope I just see people questioning the image quality since the OP stated the D3's capability and other people saying how awesome the camera is when infact its only slightly better than the rest.


Look at all the negative comments the OP received. Then look at the kit owned by the people making those comments.

Seem pretty obvious to me.........

Whatever, these things are just tools and you just have to make the best of the tools you have.
 
i wouldnt dare go over 3200 on my 50D, looking forward to the 5DII and doing some side by side work!
 
I've learned that if you are using High ISO, it's best to ETTR a bit. I never used to take pictures above ISO 800 on my camera (a 450D) because at ISO 1600 I was just getting results that were too noisy. Now I know how to do it, I shoot at ISO 1600 when and if I need to without hesitating, and often get cleaner images than I used to in ISO 1600. I've learned that and a heck of a lot more off here.

Unfortunately, the OP's image is not a best demonstration of how and when to use high ISO.
 
There's also clearly more light in this sample too

About 1/4 of a stop :)

its also filled with white and had PP done to it unlike the OP's image

It also has black and other colours :)

My first image only had The noise slider in LR turned up and a vignette preset. Below is the same image, just RAW to jpeg with high pass sharpen on reduction, nothing else

_DSC0915.jpg
 
key·board war·ri·or
-noun

1. A Person who, being unable to express his anger through physical violence (owning to their physical weakness, lack of bravery and/or conviction in real life), instead manifests said emotions through the text-based medium of the internet, usually in the form of aggressive writing that the Keyboard Warrior would not (for reasons previously mentioned) be able to give form to in real life.
2. The term is a combination of the word 'keyboard' (the main tool by which the person expresses his/her latent rage) and 'warrior' (due to the warrior-like aggression, tendency towards violence, headstrong nature and propensity towards brute force as a means of resolving conflict rather than more subtle means dependant on finesse).
3. The Keyboard Warrior seeks to use the power imbued in his 'weapon' to effect death and destruction (in a strictly-metaphorical sense) upon his foes (other virtual identities he has encountered on the internet). In essence, the keyboard (ie. text input ability) allows the keyboard warrior to manifest his true warrior nature in a safe and removed environment, from which no real-life repercussions .
4. Keyboard Warriors are generally identified by unneccessary rage in their written communications, and are regarded as 'losers' by other virtual identities on the internet.
:shake:

I love you hacker :nuts:
 
Here is a sample of the D3's capability at high ISO low light performance. This was shoot in an attic with very very little natural light. No flash was used and no noise reduction software at all was used. Contrast was added in light-room that is all! Shot at F1.8 at 6400 ISO - incredible!
The sample can be viewed here, click to enlarge
I find it very exiting the way technology is heading!

http://tragicdante.deviantart.com/art/6400-ISO-Sample-158002813
Looks crap from here.:D
 
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