60d is there any point buying used?

[petebuster1]

After more dithering i finally decided i missed the 60d i sold and decided to buy another one. So after searching the internet and ebay i settled for one from hdew cameras with 3 year warranty and under £500.
Last night i did put a few bids on used ones which i didn't come close to winning as they all seemed to go for the same price as new ones? and sometimes more,it just puzzles me why anyone wants to pay those prices:bonk: Surely if your buying a used camera you'd want it a certain amount cheaper than a new one? all very strange

 

[DaveKing]

Keep an eye on the Canon ebay outlet. They had some cracking deals on the 60D earlier in the month (60d and 17-85 @ £579 or 60D and 18-55 ISii @ £499), plus you will get 1 year Canon UK warranty!

 

[magicaxeman]

Thats cos your new one from Hdew is a grey import with no uk import duty or tax on it.

Our remaining camera shops are struggling to compete with this market and in the end it will drive them all out of buisiness, this is why I wont buy from them I dont want to see the time when we have no high street retailer left.

 

[petebuster1]

Thats cos your new one from Hdew is a grey import with no uk import duty or tax on it.

Our remaining camera shops are struggling to compete with this market and in the end it will drive them all out of buisiness, this is why I wont buy from them I dont want to see the time when we have no high street retailer left.

Appreciate what your saying but every new camera I've bought has come from digirev,panomoz etc and for one simple reason,they're a dam site cheaper and at the end of the day my bank balance comes before our retailers and if they can't compete well.........
But that's going off the initial post

 

[petebuster1]

Keep an eye on the Canon ebay outlet. They had some cracking deals on the 60D earlier in the month (60d and 17-85 @ £579 or 60D and 18-55 ISii @ £499), plus you will get 1 year Canon UK warranty!

Its bought now,did check them first but didn't have any

 

[petebuster1]

Thats cos your new one from Hdew is a grey import with no uk import duty or tax on it.

Our remaining camera shops are struggling to compete with this market and in the end it will drive them all out of buisiness, this is why I wont buy from them I dont want to see the time when we have no high street retailer left.

I never see lenses cheaper than here just cameras is there a reason for that?

 

[Dave *]

Appreciate what your saying but every new camera I've bought has come from digirev,panomoz etc and for one simple reason,they're a dam site cheaper and at the end of the day my bank balance comes before our retailers and if they can't compete well.........

It's not really a case of a UK retailer being able to compete on price or not, legitimate UK retailers are legally bound to pay VAT and any import duty required.

The Hong Kong resellers basically smuggle the items into the UK and evade tax and duty.

You are actually committing an offence by being party to that smuggling if you receive an item from Hong Kong and don't declare it to HMRC.

 

[petebuster1]

It's not really a case of a UK retailer being able to compete on price or not, legitimate UK retailers are legally bound to pay VAT and any import duty required.

The Hong Kong resellers basically smuggle the items into the UK and evade tax and duty.

You are actually committing an offence by being party to that smuggling if you receive an item from Hong Kong and don't declare it to HMRC.

Well these are well known retailers so why are they still selling? and hardly in hiding so Not a buyers fault is it ? You go to a website and buy, how can you possibly know the ins and outs of the retailer? better arrest half the forum and country lol.When there's £200 difference what do you expect? even if you did know

 

[Dave *]

Well these are well known retailers so why are they still selling? and hardly in hiding so Not a buyers fault is it ? You go to a website and buy, how can you possibly know the ins and outs of the retailer? better arrest half the forum and country lol.When there's £200 difference what do you expect? even if you did know

They are in Hong Kong and beyond the reach of UK law, also remember that if they supply directly from Hong Kong to you in the UK it is actually you as the importer who is breaking the law.

The fact they lie and label it as "toys" or "stereo parts" and undervalue it is also something you could be prosecuted for if you don't report the discrepancy.

Many people have broken these laws, and got away with it, but as technology gets better for scanning of parcels (and austerity makes more efficient tax collection necessary) it is possible we will see more smugglers caught and at the least hit with civil penalties by HMRC.

 

[petebuster1]

yes ok :bang: anyway this isnt what i started the post about but thanks for telling us our system's incompetent (like we didn't know)

After more dithering i finally decided i missed the 60d i sold and decided to buy another one. So after searching the internet and eBay i settled for one from someone cameras with 3 year warranty and under £500.
Last night i did put a few bids on used ones which i didn't come close to winning as they all seemed to go for the same price as new ones? and sometimes more,it just puzzles me why anyone wants to pay those prices Surely if your buying a used camera you'd want it a certain amount cheaper than a new one? all very strange

 

[modchild]

Hdew cameras will supply you with a VAT receipt if you require one so I don't think they are trying to avoid duty etc and they are imported to this country by them and not the customer. Also, I have had packages from Panamoz labelled up as camera parts and with the true value listed.

If a UK shop can sell these items at the price that Hdew currently do then other shops will have to 're-think' their pricing and supply structure in order to compete.

 

[hollis_f]

Last night i did put a few bids on used ones which i didn't come close to winning as they all seemed to go for the same price as new ones? and sometimes more

If I want second-hand gear I don't even think of using Ebay nowadays - too many eejits bidding far too high. I'll use TP or MPB.

 

[Chunkey Monkey]

I bought my 60D from HDEW ordored tuesday received wednesday and was posted from within the UK, Grey import hmm maybe but no laws broken. I rang them and spoke to there staff at there surrey shop.
Also got 3 years warrenty

 

[petebuster1]

Hdew cameras will supply you with a VAT receipt if you require one so I don't think they are trying to avoid duty etc and they are imported to this country by them and not the customer. Also, I have had packages from Panamoz labelled up as camera parts and with the true value listed.

If a UK shop can sell these items at the price that Hdew currently do then other shops will have to 're-think' their pricing and supply structure in order to compete.

Yes and i tend to think they are not as illegal as some would like to seem to suggest, as you say it is about competing,that's why jessops went, i never bought anything from them as they were too expensive, like most people you go for the best deal you can not for some warped sense of loyalty to uk retailers and pay a dam site more for same thing.Unless money is no object

 

[petebuster1]

If I want second-hand gear I don't even think of using Ebay nowadays - too many eejits bidding far too high. I'll use TP or MPB.

tp?

 

[dave_bass5]

tp?

TalkPhotography ;-)

This is a good pint about the second hand market though. Before i started buying from HK i could see what gear costs over here and gauge how much to sell it for. Now that the HK companies are so popular, and some people paying quite a bit less, what was once a good second hand price for a lot of things can now seem expensive.
Then again, not everyone wants to buy from HK so i dont think its as popular outside of the forums.

When i sell my 60D (not for at least a couple of months yet) im not sure how i will price it, but i expect ill take in to account what they can be brought for in HK.

Talking of HDEW. I expect they brake the law for you when they get the gear from Hk. I suppose at least its all legit from our point of view.

 

[petebuster1]

TalkPhotography ;-)

This is a good pint about the second hand market though. Before i started buying from HK i could see what gear costs over here and gauge how much to sell it for. Now that the HK companies are so popular, and some people paying quite a bit less, what was once a good second hand price for a lot of things can now seem expensive.
Then again, not everyone wants to buy from HK so i dont think its as popular outside of the forums.

When i sell my 60D (not for at least a couple of months yet) im not sure how i will price it, but i expect ill take in to account what they can be brought for in HK.

Talking of HDEW. I expect they brake the law for you when they get the gear from Hk. I suppose at least its all legit from our point of view.

Mmmmm maybe they do maybe they dont? i'm certainly no expert on these matters but they all seem to trade quite freely so i've no idea and i suppose the down side is when you sell your 60d you wont get as much but they've been going for £450-£500+ on ebay depending on condition (mostly the higher end) which is more in many cases than ive paid for a new one,i guess some people dont look beyond ebay:shrug:which is why they pay the same price for a used one.

 

[dave_bass5]

Yeah, eBay is not always the cheapest place these days, quite the opposite sometimes.

 

[hollis_f]

Talking of HDEW. I expect they brake the law for you when they get the gear from Hk. I suppose at least its all legit from our point of view.

That's the important difference. If HDEW will supply a VAT receipt then, if any laws are being broken, it's HDEW who are the lawbreakers. With the HK companies that send you a camera with 'toy parts' or 'gift' on the customs declaration, it's you who are the criminal.

Some people aren't worried about being a criminal. Why these people don't just throw a brick through Dixons' window, I don't know. Much bigger discounts and just as illegal.

 

[Dave *]

That's the important difference. If HDEW will supply a VAT receipt then, if any laws are being broken, it's HDEW who are the lawbreakers. With the HK companies that send you a camera with 'toy parts' or 'gift' on the customs declaration, it's you who are the criminal.

Some people aren't worried about being a criminal. Why these people don't just throw a brick through Dixons' window, I don't know. Much bigger discounts and just as illegal.

More likely they self rationalise it as not being a crime, or not being serious, or "everyone does it".

 

[dave_bass5]

I'm not a vandal, I'm a smuggler. Big difference.
Saying that, if I need a TV I might as well go and throw a brick, its all about saving money after all.

 

[dave_bass5]

That's the important difference. If HDEW will supply a VAT receipt then, if any laws are being broken, it's HDEW who are the lawbreakers.

Wouldn't knowingly buying gear that was illegally brought in to the country also be a crime?

 

[Dave *]

Wouldn't knowingly buying gear that was illegally brought in to the country also be a crime?

There are 3 or 4 offences that a smuggler could be prosecuted under (I listed them in another thread which seems to have mysteriously disappeared).

For example:

Customs and Excise Management Act 1979

Penalty for fraudulent evasion of duty, etc.

Sec 170

(1)Without prejudice to any other provision of the Customs and Excise Acts 1979, if any person—

(a)knowingly acquires possession of any of the following goods, that is to say—

(ii)goods which are chargeable with a duty which has not been paid;


(b)is in any way knowingly concerned in carrying, removing, depositing, harbouring, keeping or concealing or in any manner dealing with any such goods,and does so with intent to defraud Her Majesty of any duty payable on the goods or to evade any such prohibition or restriction with respect to the goods he shall be guilty of an offence under this section and may be detained.

Value Added Tax Act 1994 (VATA 1994)

acquires possession of goods or deals with goods or accepts the supply of services, having reason to believe that VAT has been or will be evaded, or

furnishes information that is false, with intent to deceive or makes a statement that he knows to be false or recklessly makes a false statement.


The maximum penalty on conviction in the Crown Court is seven years' imprisonment or an unlimited fine.

In the magistrates' court the maximum term of imprisonment is restricted to six months' imprisonment or a financial penalty not exceeding £5,000 or three times the amount of VAT, which ever is greater.

Cheating the public revenue

The common-law offence of cheating the public revenue includes any form of fraudulent conduct which results in depriving the HMRC of money to which it is entitled.

 

[dave_bass5]

We make the choice and have to live with the consequences.

 

[hollis_f]

Wouldn't knowingly buying gear that was illegally brought in to the country also be a crime?

It's not illegal to bring it into the country, it's illegal to not pay the VAT. If the importers give you a receipt for that VAT then you've every right to assume that you have, indeed, paid your dues.

 

[petebuster1]

It's all.extra money for the government customs fees just legalized theft anyway, one reason not to buy from some countries,the last time I bought from the U S only I was charged £40 custom charges the item only cost £45 , who's stealing from
who?

 

[Dave *]

I genuinely didn't know DR did this until my first order. I also didn't look at te labels as I was too excited and just ripped the packaging apart.
I did of course know why the prices were so cheap, so I'm not making excuses.
We make the choice and have to live with the consequences. Mine were I saved a packet.

I've always had the opinion it's totally a personal choice, and I don't judge anyone who chooses to do so. What does get annoying are the people who do so and then make a post detailing who they bought from, how much of a saving they made and a real boast about what a bargain they got. These same people then tend to post in a pretty aggressive manner in defence of the grey importer when anyone points out what they are really doing.

It also seems to be the only unlawful activity that this forum allows discussion of, and even seems to encourage posts specifically detailing the exact how and where to do it (by having the old Panamoz section and current DR section).

Somedays I wonder how long a post about the best way to smuggle drugs, or how to find torrents to unlawfully download CS6 would last.

It's all.extra money for the government customs fees just legalized theft anyway, one reason not to buy from some countries,the last time I bought from the U S only I was charged £40 custom charges the item only cost £45 , who's stealing from
who?

This is really a real LOL post.


Why don't you also shoplift your weekly shopping in Tesco? It has the same "legalised theft" 20% VAT as your smuggled camera avoids, included when you pay at the till.

 

[dave_bass5]

It's not illegal to bring it into the country, it's illegal to not pay the VAT. If the importers give you a receipt for that VAT then you've every right to assume that you have, indeed, paid your dues.

I take your point and agree in general, after all you can't normally know where goods are source from, but with a company like HDEW i would think it could be shown that you know the score before buying from them and therefore possibly know duty hasn't been paid
Weather it could be proven is another mater though.

 

[Dave *]

I take your point and agree in general, after all you can't normally know where goods are source from, but with a company like HDEW i would think it could be shown that you know the score before buying from them and therefore possibly know duty hasn't been paid
Weather it could be proven is another mater though.

HDEW isn't quite in the same category as the HK retailers, they were the importer and so any failure to declare for VAT or duty is an offence they commit, and not the end user. While its more than likely the items are being smuggled in, receiving it from them absolves the buyer of any legal guilt.

Of course the much vaunted "3 year warranty" is only a promise from HDEW to repair any issues (if/while they are still in business), it isn't a warranty from the UK arm of the manufacturer, and wouldn't be valid for service from the manufacturer in the case of warranty issues.

You pay your money and make your choices....

 

[petebuster1]

I've always had the opinion it's totally a personal choice, and I don't judge anyone who chooses to do so. What does get annoying are the people who do so and then make a post detailing who they bought from, how much of a saving they made and a real boast about what a bargain they got. These same people then tend to post in a pretty aggressive manner in defence of the grey importer when anyone points out what they are really doing.

It also seems to be the only unlawful activity that this forum allows discussion of, and even seems to encourage posts specifically detailing the exact how and where to do it (by having the old Panamoz section and current DR section).

Somedays I wonder how long a post about the best way to smuggle drugs, or how to find torrents to unlawfully download CS6 would last.







This is really a real LOL post.


Why don't you also shoplift your weekly shopping in Tesco? It has the same "legalised theft" 20% VAT as your smuggled camera avoids, included when you pay at the till.

:bonk: dont we know it (gullible the word i believe) lol , i might also add this post has been changed by others turning it into something else, the original post was about prices of the 60d. so what if i mention where and how much i paid? That was mentioned in all innocents,is that really a problem ? but i suppose your always going to get the perfect brigade jump on it lol, I'm also not defending anyone,i dont investigate a seller (whoops maybe we all should?) before i buy anything. Just stating a fact but if goodie two shoes want to pay £300 more for something go ahead,have no problem with that either.

 

[petebuster1]

I've always had the opinion it's totally a personal choice, and I don't judge anyone who chooses to do so. What does get annoying are the people who do so and then make a post detailing who they bought from, how much of a saving they made and a real boast about what a bargain they got. These same people then tend to post in a pretty aggressive manner in defence of the grey importer when anyone points out what they are really doing.

It also seems to be the only unlawful activity that this forum allows discussion of, and even seems to encourage posts specifically detailing the exact how and where to do it (by having the old Panamoz section and current DR section).

Somedays I wonder how long a post about the best way to smuggle drugs, or how to find torrents to unlawfully download CS6 would last.







This is really a real LOL post.


Why don't you also shoplift your weekly shopping in Tesco? It has the same "legalised theft" 20% VAT as your smuggled camera avoids, included when you pay at the till.

:bonk: dont we know it, dont like Tesco,would rather smuggle lol

 

[Furtim]

:bonk: dont we know it (gullible the word i believe) lol , i might also add this post has been changed by others turning it into something else, the original post was about prices of the 60d. so what if i mention where and how much i paid? That was mentioned in all innocents,is that really a problem ? but i suppose your always going to get the perfect brigade jump on it lol, I'm also not defending anyone,i dont investigate a seller (whoops maybe we all should?) before i buy anything. Just stating a fact but if goodie two shoes want to pay £300 more for something go ahead,have no problem with that either.

I really don't want to drift off topic, but for some reason this has really rankled me. The indirect inference that people who adhere to the law are in some way worthy of ridicule upsets me.

Taxes are required to pay for public services. If you don't like the way the money is being spent, change the people spending it, but opting out of paying isn't really an option, and those who do so with impunity put further pressure on those that continue to pay. I'm talking everyone here - from the guy who saved £300 on a camera to the multinational coffee shop.

Moving it slightly back on topic, we often lament about the state of our local shops. My 'local' camera shop is now 40 miles away, but at least I still have one. I go in there to try out kit and get advice from the staff so I buy my kit from there too. It is more expensive that the HK importers, but on a par with other UK retailers, so they are not 'expensive' per se, but if I don't support them, and *you* don't support them, then they will close and we will lament some more over the lack of local shops in the UK.

Cathartic rant over :|

 

[petebuster1]

Time to move on, but if people dont like the where others buy their goods then keep it to themselves or find a forum where everyone only buys uk goods if they feel they're on such a moral high ground.
I will state where i bought my camera i bought it with all good intent,i bought on price not because its legal/illegal as have no idea whether it is/isn't as many others do.What that has to do with anyone else i dont know

 

[hollis_f]

Time to move on, but if people dont like the where others buy their goods then keep it to themselves or find a forum where everyone only buys uk goods if they feel they're on such a moral high ground.

And who the hell are you to dictate what may, or may not, be discussed in these fora? Why should those who take the moral high ground kow-tow to those who live in the moral gutter?

 

[dave_bass5]

I do think the thread is going off topic a bit.

 

[Phil V]

Time to move on, but if people dont like the where others buy their goods then keep it to themselves or find a forum where everyone only buys uk goods if they feel they're on such a moral high ground.
I will state where i bought my camera i bought it with all good intent,i bought on price not because its legal/illegal as have no idea whether it is/isn't as many others do.What that has to do with anyone else i dont know

So you believe that the forum is a place where you should be free to discuss criminal activity, and that anyone who objects to that should find somewhere else to discuss it.

I don't remember voting for this change of policy. I've got some fairly strong opinions myself, it'd be great to think that I can just ask anyone who disagrees to just shut up

 

[petebuster1]

What criminal activity? any proof? has someone robbed a bank?
You buy from where you want and let the rest of us buy from where we want.END OF STORY.

I buy a camera once in a blue moon and look for best deal i can get, i really dont care who i get it from and see no evidence of any criminal activity from the seller i purchased,yet its called the pc moral high ground brigade to all get out their prams

 

[petebuster1]

And who the hell are you to dictate what may, or may not, be discussed in these fora? Why should those who take the moral high ground kow-tow to those who live in the moral gutter?

buying one camera ever from hdew is moral gutter???? oh get a life its you people trying to dictate and go off the thread completely

 

[Phil V]

What criminal activity? any proof? has someone robbed a bank?
You buy from where you want and let the rest of us buy from where we want.END OF STORY.

I buy a camera once in a blue moon and look for best deal i can get, i really dont care who i get it from and see no evidence of any criminal activity from the seller i purchased,yet its called the pc moral high ground brigade to all get out their prams

And I thought forums were a place for the sharing of opinions and knowledge, not somewhere we come to hear what Pete thinks

 

[petebuster1]

And I thought forums were a place for the sharing of opinions and knowledge, not somewhere we come to hear what Pete thinks

why not? i'm merely expressing my opinions and responding to comments made as you all are or is it only if we all agree with you?