50mm 1.4 and 50mm 1.8 crop sensor?

AndyG123

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I'm in the middle of making my Christmas list and have been asked what I want. I've wanted a 1.4 or a 1.8 prime, but the 1.4 are far too expensive new.
Would I notice much difference between the 1.8 and 1.4 on a d3300 nikon? I know this camera roughly has a crop factor of 1.5 which will effectively make my 50mm 1.4 essentially a 75mm 2.1 or a 75mm 2.7 if I go for the 1.8.

Now the question is, I want something that is going to be Superior over my f3.5(actually 5.2f with crop taken into account) 18-55 kit lens. How much of an improvement will I notice?
And is it worth looking for the lesser condition 1.4 over the new 1.8...
 
The revised field of view you are referring to is correct at 75mm on a crop sensor.

The 1.4/1.8 lenses will still 'be' 1.4/1.8 lenses on your crop sensor in terms of light gathering but will have more depth of field on crop approximate to as you say 2.2/2.8 on 35mm.

As to your question have you looked at the Nikon 35 1.8 dx? Unless you really want a field of view of 75mm the 35mm will effectively give a field of view of '50'mm on a crop sensor. That would be my choice.
 
In many ways the 1.8 is better than the 1.4 so no problem with getting the 1.8.

I would say though that you should be sure you want a 50mm lens as it is quite long on a crop body, it would be worth looking through all your images and see which focal length you use most (you can get programmes to do this for you).
 
Is this the same as the 35mm 1.8 is this also a fantastic lens? Im tempted by the 35mm now after someone mentioning the crop been near a 50mm
There is a DX specific 35mm f1.8 which costs around £160 ish new - it is an extremely competent lens. There is also a newer fx f1.8g too which costs £500 ish, no doubt it will be extremely competent on a crop body and is so on full frame bodies. If you stay with DX just get the DX version (smaller, lighter, cheaper and very very good).
 
I'd get the 35mm DX. I rarely used the 50mm when I was shooting DX, it was just that little bit too long.
 
Oh-Kay...

1a) the f1.4 isn't a full 'stop' faster than f1.8, so on that scale its not a huge difference, even if ultra fast apertures 'might' in the slim situations they can be.

1b) The big difference between the Nikor AF-S 1.4 and AFS 1.8's is price!!!! Some of that is that it is more difficult to make a faster aperture lens, but the bigger bit is actually the other way about; the 'faster' 1.4's are made to a higher general grade, so ts easier to incorporate the faster iris in them at the price they will command.

Ie they are two quite markedly variant grades of lens, and the f1.4 will almost certainly be technically the 'better' not because of it having the faster aperture, but it having the faster aperture because its the more expensive made lens.

2... 50mm and the crop factor....
The renaisance of the 'nifty fifty', contains a lot of legacy. Bear with the history lesson! 50mm is the 'standard angle' for a 35mm film camera, with a 45Deg Field of view.

You have to note that the 'standard', as in came with the camera, lens, wasn't always the 'standard' angle of view lens for that format; Particularly on fixed lens, 35mm cameras, the 'standard' lens that was fitted was often the more all-round versatile mild-wide of 35mm, while on a medium format 120 roll film camera, anything from maybe 80m to 110mm might be fitted 'as standard'.

However, the small, 35mm format, became popularized after WWII, as it used the same film stock as the movie industry, that provided a economy of scale to make the film 'cheaper' and provided affordable colour film. It also directed a trend towards more 'compact' cameras, but more significantly 'Single-Lens-Reflex' that used a 'periscope' mechanism of pentaprism and moving mirror to offer a 'Through-Taking-Lens' view-finder, which would have been large, bulky, difficult to manufacture and having to shift a mirror such a large distance out of the way to let light get to the film, likely slow, heavy and unreliable, on larger formats

35mm SLR's, came into vogue in the 1960's and '70's and were popularised through the 1980's to become the defcto 'enthusiast' camera; a lot of that born along by the fact that a Throgh-Taking-Lens view-finder made it a lot easier to make, and use, interchangeable lens cameras, where 'what you see s what you get', regardless of the length of lens fitted.

Most 35mm SLR's then came with a 50mm 'standard angle' lens in the box.. at that time, fixed focal length 'prime' lenses were the expectation, variable focal length 'zoom' lenses were not so common, and in that enthusiast market often critasised for their quality to 'save' carrying probably only one extra lens around.

As a 'sales feature' the low f-number of the 'kit' 50mm lens, was for a long time, treated with a similar mathematical reverence as Mega-Pixies are on digi-sensors today.. how useful that feature may be was often ignored on the assumption that a faster aperture 'must' make it a better lens... which often was true, but as above vs Nikon f1.8 vs f1.4 primes, not because the fast f-number automatically made it a better lens.

Through the 90's!!! Zoom lenses became more accepted, as they became 'better' and cheaper, and the marketing mens race for lower f-numbers was largely supplanted by a race for wider zoom-range. 'Normal' angle zooms that had generally had a 2x zoom range covering perhaps 35mm to 70mm about the 'standard angle' of 50mm, crept outwards to become 28-80mm 'ish' and the 2x zoom of old stretched to the 3x of the now common 'kit' lens on digtal. Meanwhile, Auto-Focus came into vogue on SLR cameras.

In the early 2000's... when 'digital' was evolving, 'crop-sensor' cameras based on the 'half frame' or APS film format were introduced to the consumer market, significantly because of cost. SLR cameras using these sensors frequently could mount 'legacy' lenses from earlier film cameras, which was a useful sales feature, to encourage existing photographers with a good collection of lenses for 35mm film cameras to switch to digital, and not have to invest 'quite' so much in a complete new system.

This legacy compatablity, sparked the renaisance in prime lenses, and partcularly 'fast aperture' prime lenses.

In the flm-only era, many cameras shipped with a fairly fast 50 as 'standard' that were very often very quickly replaced with a more versatile short zoom. Consequently, the value of 'kit' 50's was almost nil! (In the 90's you almost couldn't give away 50mm primes, especially older manual focus ones, more still ones in the less popular mounts!)

BUT; resurgent interest in photography kindled by digtal, coupled to legacy compatability with manual focus film era lenses, coupled to a wealth of 'accademic' excersises in 'how to do photography' books, usually written around the assumption that enthusasts would be starting with a 35mm film camera with 'kit' fast 50.. saw folk start to dig out and start using these 'cheap' legacy lenses, often ignorig the crop-factor, and exploiting that fast aperture for shallow focus effets hard to achieve with a smaller sensor camera without it, especially wth shorter, more 'normal angle' lenses for smaller sensor cameras.

SO!!!!!!!!!

We get to the question..s?....
- WHY do you want a prime?
- WHY do you want a 50mm prime?
- Why do you want a 'fast' aperture prime?


It's a bit backwards to the legacy questions, which essentially were that these lenses were available.. so what can you do with one! But starting with a crop-sensor digtal camera, and looking at brand new AF lenses for it, rather than available legacy offerings, it does really beg a clean sheet approach as if buying any other lens, for any other reason.

The 50mm focal length on a 35m camera, was always rather restrictive. The normal angle, giving normal perspectve, they were oft crtasised for creating 'borng' unflattering photo's, and always being a meddle in the middle; not being wide nor telephoto, and a one trick dog as far as wide aprture shallow focus effects went...

But, they were what so many accademic excersises were written for and the 'lessons' of those excersses to work wthin the limits of the gear you got, had merit.... But DONT when fitted to a Crop-Sensor DSLR... and the crop-factor sees a fast 50 offer the 'sort' of framing, but not the perspective of a short telephoto 'portrait' lens, usually around 80-110mm for 35mm film.

IF you want to mimic that fast-fifty experience and the academic lessons that were promoted by these, on a crop-sensor camera, a 35mm prime is likely the more appropriate tool.

A 50mm on APS-C, having the framing of a 75mm prime, is a bit short of a traditional portrait lens, and actually not providing the more flattering perspective in that situation of a 75 on film, its still a 50mm lens!

For shallow focus effects... fast aperture lenses are a go-to problem to a solution!.. and a fast aperture lens, probably ISN'T the best way to discover and explore that 'dissociated focus' effect... big difference between 'selective focus' and 'shallow focus'. Wider apertures do offer shallower DoF, but its only one variable in the mix, and a shallow DoF doesn't automatically put the subject in the sharp focus zone.. to do that you still need to exploit 'Selective-Focus' know how to get a DoF large enough to keep your whole subject in that DoF zone, ad get back-ground out of it! Expecting a lens to do the job for you, just because of a 'wow' fast aperture in the specs, is likely a road to madness, not actually achieving what you probably hope to very often.

RIGHT!!! tackling specifics....

I know this camera roughly has a crop factor of 1.5 which will effectively make my 50mm 1.4 essentially a 75mm 2.1 or a 75mm 2.7 if I go for the 1.8.
Tackling this one first.... The CROP FACTOR, gives a quick 'rough reckoner' means of comparison for the relative framing provided by different length lenses used on different format cameras; The focal length of a lens is the focal length of a lens, the aperture set on a lens is the aperture set on a lens... the 'crop factor' does NOT change these.

If you frame a scene with a 50mm lens on a 35mm film camera, putting that lens onto a crop-sensor camera does not make it a 75mm lens! What you get, is the exact same 'exposure' the exact same focus, the exact same DoF... you just 'crop' top bottom and sides of the frame, so the image looks larger in reproduction!

If you want the same 'framing' on the crop sensor camera as you had with the 50 on full-frame... you would have to move backwards, increase your camera to subject distance; and if you moved back far enough, now your focus range will be longer, and at any aperture your DoF will be deeper, and trying to use the crop factor to work out how the perspective or DoF has changed just doesn't work... it depends on the camera to subject distance.

So even for framing, the 'crop-factor' does't go so far as your comment suggests, and it certaily doesn't have any bearing on the effectve f-number.

Now the question is, I want something that is going to be Superior over my f3.5(<s>actually 5.2f with crop taken into account</s>{No, see above!}) 18-55 kit lens. How much of an improvement will I notice

Oh-Kay.. I have the kit 18-55 on my D3200; for five years having hefted up to finally buy into DSLR and try and get the 'range' of lenses I have for my old film cameras, and just about got there; for the last six years, I have pondered the very same queston.. and that 18-55 is STILL on the front of my DSLR and my most used lens... I have REALLY struggled to find anything 'significantly' better in ANY practcally useful way to replace it with! Honestly!!

The Kit 18-55, has a very useful zoom range; it's lack of faster aertures is NOT a particular impediment for 99% of the photo's I take.. and having bought both AF-S35 and AF-S50 for my daughter doing O & A-level accademics, the biggest benefit of either, in my opinion is the brighter view-finder image!

As far as 'resolution' goes; I will concur that the high 24+Mpix offered by the later generation of widgetal cameras is starting to show up the 'limits' of the cheaper lenses, including the 18-55.... BUT... more expensive lenses aren't always 'better'..

Messing, I took some back to back shots with an old and 'budget' (Prinz Galaxy) M42 fit 'prime' on an infinity corrected adapter to compare to what I got with Nikkor 55-300... that old £20ish legacy less, even with a 'cheap' element corrected adapter literally blew away the Nikkor for ultimate IQ...

Large part of that is that the legacy lens was built for a full-frame 35mm camera, so the 'crop' sensor camera was only taking its image from the 'sweet spot' from the middle of the mage circle, and 'cropping' a lot off the edges where most abhoratios might have been more prominant; but, as an older lens, even a 'budget' one, when new that was likely made to a much higher grade and consumer cost, which was the only thing of importance, to buyers when the 'features' of variable focal length or auto-focus just weren't on the menu...

This does illustrate the anomoly; modern lenses with so much more demand for 'features' like zoom range, have to be built down to a much lesser 'grade', and optimised for a smaller sensor, helps them do that.

This offers conundrum IF you want higher IQ than a kit lens... shopping up the range, how much 'extra' IQ you may get is likely diminished by how much extra functionality they try pack into the product.. and you likely DON'T get such enormous gain in IQ for your money, you will get a lot more features and functions for it, with a smaller amount of added IQ over the 'acceptable' quality level of a lesser lens.

How much you may notice? ALL dependent on what you spend on what you buy.

I will say that back-to back, the IQ delivered by the 35 & 50 primes, over the 18-55 is, in 'most' circumstances, is 'noticeably better'.. but 'significantly' better? That's a very different question. And alone, either way, it isn't enough to make me buy either and faff more to use them! And applying that much extra diligence to use a prime, to using the 18-55, I would probably see a lot more overall 'improvement' in my shots, if little improvement to the 'resolution'....

So 'just' how much 'imrovement' do you want, or expect t see? If you cant do better wth what you got, buyng a 'better' lens probably wont do much of it for you...

And is it worth looking for the lesser condition 1.4 over the new 1.8...

2nd hand tends to be better value.. so IF either makes it onto the short-list, then, yes.. But remember, the f1.4 is the higher 'grade' lens, and that f1.4 aperture is a symptom of that, not the cause.

But the question, remains, IS a prime, is a fast prime, actually going to do what you hope it may?

As it stands, with the errors shown in your question, as far as the crop-factor and apertures, I would suggest, that you would find far more 'improvement' in your photography from learning, not spending.... Some photo books; a photo course and just getting out and about and learning from doing..

In that, following academic exercises for the learning, the AF-S 35, MAY be worth the punt, first to satisfy GAS, ad to give yourself something 'new' and inspiration to go play with it, and actually attempt the academic-exercises from tutorials, and gain some impetus to go so and try.. B-U-T... the 'gains' will likely NOT be 'in' the lens, but in your own approach and know-how to exploit it.

Remember its good photographers that make great photo's, not expensive equipment.
 
<snip>
Tackling this one first.... The CROP FACTOR, gives a quick 'rough reckoner' means of comparison for the relative framing provided by different length lenses used on different format cameras; The focal length of a lens is the focal length of a lens, the aperture set on a lens is the aperture set on a lens... the 'crop factor' does NOT change these.

If you frame a scene with a 50mm lens on a 35mm film camera, putting that lens onto a crop-sensor camera does not make it a 75mm lens! What you get, is the exact same 'exposure' the exact same focus, the exact same DoF... you just 'crop' top bottom and sides of the frame, so the image looks larger in reproduction!

If you want the same 'framing' on the crop sensor camera as you had with the 50 on full-frame... you would have to move backwards, increase your camera to subject distance; and if you moved back far enough, now your focus range will be longer, and at any aperture your DoF will be deeper, and trying to use the crop factor to work out how the perspective or DoF has changed just doesn't work... it depends on the camera to subject distance.

So even for framing, the 'crop-factor' does't go so far as your comment suggests, and it certaily doesn't have any bearing on the effectve f-number.
<snip>
As it stands, with the errors shown in your question, as far as the crop-factor and apertures, I would suggest, that you would find far more 'improvement' in your photography from learning, not spending.... Some photo books; a photo course and just getting out and about and learning from doing.. <snip>

The OP is correct. In terms of framing and depth-of-field, a 50/1.4 lens becomes an effective 75mm f/2.1 on a 1.5x crop sensor camera vs full-frame, and 50/1.8 becomes 75mm f/2.7.

For equivalence, both focal length and aperture are multiplied by the crop factor. In other words, if you shoot at the same distance with at 50mm f/1.4 on crop format, and 75mm f/2.1 on full-frame, the images will have identical framing, perspective, and DoF (though shutter speed and/or ISO must be adjusted for correct exposure).

Depth-of-field is not defined at the moment of capture on the sensor as is commonly supposed, but only when the image is output/printed and viewed. This is why we get different amounts of DoF from the same lens and settings when used on different format cameras.
 
I've recently got the 35mm 1.8 for my D3300 and can say it's miles better than the 18-55mm kit lens.
 
I've recently got the 35mm 1.8 for my D3300 and can say it's miles better than the 18-55mm kit lens.
Having had both the 35 is very good but i find the 18-55 afp (considered a bit of an upgrade to the earlier non afp versisons) to be more useful.
And Daniel,your shots witht the 18-55 are very nice.
 
Depth-of-field is not defined at the moment of capture on the sensor as is commonly supposed, but only when the image is output/printed and viewed. This is why we get different amounts of DoF from the same lens and settings when used on different format cameras.

Oh yes it is.

Dunno why you bring this up but the depth of field you will see at your chosen output size and viewing distance is most deffo set when you pick up the camera and push the button. This is why it's important to think about the final result you want and how it'll be viewed before you choose the kit and the settings and take the shot.

The notion that dof is not defined at capture seems utterly daft to me. Of course it is. You should consider the final result you want and how it will be displayed and viewed and take that into consideration when deciding on the kit and settings. Once you take the shot you're stuck with it and any limitations your choice of gear and/or settings leave you with. Want a nice picture of whoever to print A3? Believe that the dof isn't set at capture and you may end up being disappointed that whoevers left eye isn't sharp if you print it any bigger than 2x3in and view at arms length. Decide that you want both eyes sharp when viewing an A3 picture at normal viewing, engage your brain and choose the kit and settings to achieve that and you're more likely to be happy. What you will see at whatever output and viewing you choose is set when you press the button and all you can do later is hide it by limiting something.

As to the op's question. F1.8's are generally more compact and cheaper, if it's a prezie the cost may not matter bulk and weight might. Another thing is that although the smart move may be to get the f1.8 the heart may say f1.4 because it's sexy :D I'd also think about the "look" the lenses give, one may give a nicer look :D
 
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Oh yes it is.

Dunno why you bring this up but the depth of field you will see at your chosen output size and viewing distance is most deffo set when you pick up the camera and push the button. This is why it's important to think about the final result you want and how it'll be viewed before you choose the kit and the settings and take the shot.

The notion that dof is not defined at capture seems utterly daft to me. Of course it is. You should consider the final result you want and how it will be displayed and viewed and take that into consideration when deciding on the kit and settings. Once you take the shot you're stuck with it and any limitations your choice of gear and/or settings leave you with. Want a nice picture of whoever to print A3? Believe that the dof isn't set at capture and you may end up being disappointed that whoevers left eye isn't sharp if you print it any bigger than 2x3in and view at arms length. Decide that you want both eyes sharp when viewing an A3 picture at normal viewing, engage your brain and choose the kit and settings to achieve that and you're more likely to be happy. What you will see at whatever output and viewing you choose is set when you press the button and all you can do later is hide it by limiting something.

As to the op's question. F1.8's are generally more compact and cheaper, if it's a prezie the cost may not matter bulk and weight might. Another thing is that although the smart move may be to get the f1.8 the heart may say f1.4 because it's sexy :D I'd also think about the "look" the lenses give, one may give a nicer look :D

I brought it up because it's mentioned in the OP, and there are errors in TM's reply.

Not for the first time, you have missed the point and in your haste for argument you've contradicted yourself and are actually agreeing with me.
 
Depth-of-field is not defined at the moment of capture on the sensor as is commonly supposed, but only when the image is output/printed and viewed.
Yes it is.. that's why I can 'see' the DoF through the view-finder if I stop down, with older manual-focus lenses, some of which even have a 'DoF Preview' button for that exact purpose!
This is why we get different amounts of DoF from the same lens and settings when used on different format cameras.
No, no 'we' dont.
The DoF we see is dependent on the focal length of the lens, the aperture setting, and the camera to subject focus range. It s NOT at all effected by the size of film or sensor put behind the lens.

For equivalence, both focal length and aperture are multiplied by the crop factor.
No.. no they aren't.

The 'aperture' is the diameter of hole light gets through, inside the lens... a 25mm diameter hole does not change size if you put a bigger or smaller sensor behind it!

The 'f-number'.. which isn't the aperture, but the aperture 'setting' is the dimensionless ratio of the lens' focal length divided by the aperture diameter. Again, this does NOT change if you put a different sized sensor behind the lens.

Where it may change is if you use a tele-converter, that uses an additional optical element behind the lens to magnify it's effective focal length. Now, if you put a 1.5x tele-converter behind, say, a 50mm lens, that will multiply the effective focal length to 75mm.. now the aperture diameter does not change... but the 'effective' F-number, which is the Focal length / Aperture diameter will, as the effective foal length is multiplied by the tele-converter, so the F-No will be 1.5 times higher...

BUT a crop-sensor isn't a tele-converter. May have a similar effect on subject to frame sizing in magnifying the subject, BUT it is NOT a tele-converter and the DoF obtained at any F-No will be that provided by that F-No and the camera to subject focus range... the crop factor will NOT multiply the F-No, or will there be any 'equivalence' , as the aperture diameter and the focal length of the lens has not changed,

The Depth of Field, obtained at any aperture is, between the lens' shortest focal distance and it's hyper-focal, is a proportion of the focus range, and not a linear proportion, but an exponential one, as the DoF increases with Focus Range towards infinity.

Shorter focal length lenses tend to have a shorter 'range of critical focus' between closest focus and hyper-focal, so deliver a greater DoF for any given focus-range.

SO! Framing a scene with a 50mm lens on a 35mm/Full-Frame camera; at any given focus range and aperture setting you will get a certain DoF.

If you fit that 50mm lens to a crop sensor camera; where the FF sensor was 24x36mm, the crop sensor cameras is only 18x24mm, it will 'crop' 6mm of the image from the top & bottom and 12mm off the sides; hence in reproduction, the image, as captured, from the smaller crop sensor camera, will contain a smaller portion of the original scene, and have to be magnified more to the same viewing size. Hence the crop-factor doesn't 'magnify' the image... reproduction does.

So, if you use the 50mm lens on a crop sensor camera, to get the same subject to frame scale in reproduction, you have to increase the focus range; this consequently tends to increase the DoF.. but by virtue of the grater focus range, which in a non-linear relationship cannot be 'equivalence' from a simple magnification of the f-no by the crop-factor. Conversely, to get the same subject to frame scale, without increasing focus range, using a 35mm lens instead of a 50, the critical-focus-range of the 35mm lens will usually start closer to the camera, and go to hyperfocal at a closer focus distance; The more compressed critical-focus-range, then will tend to increase the DoF for any aperture, whilst pushing that zone closer to the camera a larger focus-range t get the same framing will push the DoF further up the exponential ramp, increasing the DoF more still, and the 'equivalences' of the Cop-Factor just don't hold in that alternative and more complex mathematical model.

Bottom line; the Crop-Factor,provides a rough-reckoner to compare the effective framing you get from a lens between crop sensor and full frame sensor cameras, little else. It should not be applied to apertures or aperture settings, or used to infer the effective DoF you may get.. it just does not hold true.

But... motorbikes.... ;-)
 
Yes it is.. that's why I can 'see' the DoF through the view-finder if I stop down, with older manual-focus lenses, some of which even have a 'DoF Preview' button for that exact purpose!

No, no 'we' dont.
The DoF we see is dependent on the focal length of the lens, the aperture setting, and the camera to subject focus range. It s NOT at all effected by the size of film or sensor put behind the lens.


No.. no they aren't.

The 'aperture' is the diameter of hole light gets through, inside the lens... a 25mm diameter hole does not change size if you put a bigger or smaller sensor behind it!

The 'f-number'.. which isn't the aperture, but the aperture 'setting' is the dimensionless ratio of the lens' focal length divided by the aperture diameter. Again, this does NOT change if you put a different sized sensor behind the lens.

Where it may change is if you use a tele-converter, that uses an additional optical element behind the lens to magnify it's effective focal length. Now, if you put a 1.5x tele-converter behind, say, a 50mm lens, that will multiply the effective focal length to 75mm.. now the aperture diameter does not change... but the 'effective' F-number, which is the Focal length / Aperture diameter will, as the effective foal length is multiplied by the tele-converter, so the F-No will be 1.5 times higher...

BUT a crop-sensor isn't a tele-converter. May have a similar effect on subject to frame sizing in magnifying the subject, BUT it is NOT a tele-converter and the DoF obtained at any F-No will be that provided by that F-No and the camera to subject focus range... the crop factor will NOT multiply the F-No, or will there be any 'equivalence' , as the aperture diameter and the focal length of the lens has not changed,

The Depth of Field, obtained at any aperture is, between the lens' shortest focal distance and it's hyper-focal, is a proportion of the focus range, and not a linear proportion, but an exponential one, as the DoF increases with Focus Range towards infinity.

Shorter focal length lenses tend to have a shorter 'range of critical focus' between closest focus and hyper-focal, so deliver a greater DoF for any given focus-range.

SO! Framing a scene with a 50mm lens on a 35mm/Full-Frame camera; at any given focus range and aperture setting you will get a certain DoF.

If you fit that 50mm lens to a crop sensor camera; where the FF sensor was 24x36mm, the crop sensor cameras is only 18x24mm, it will 'crop' 6mm of the image from the top & bottom and 12mm off the sides; hence in reproduction, the image, as captured, from the smaller crop sensor camera, will contain a smaller portion of the original scene, and have to be magnified more to the same viewing size. Hence the crop-factor doesn't 'magnify' the image... reproduction does.

So, if you use the 50mm lens on a crop sensor camera, to get the same subject to frame scale in reproduction, you have to increase the focus range; this consequently tends to increase the DoF.. but by virtue of the grater focus range, which in a non-linear relationship cannot be 'equivalence' from a simple magnification of the f-no by the crop-factor. Conversely, to get the same subject to frame scale, without increasing focus range, using a 35mm lens instead of a 50, the critical-focus-range of the 35mm lens will usually start closer to the camera, and go to hyperfocal at a closer focus distance; The more compressed critical-focus-range, then will tend to increase the DoF for any aperture, whilst pushing that zone closer to the camera a larger focus-range t get the same framing will push the DoF further up the exponential ramp, increasing the DoF more still, and the 'equivalences' of the Cop-Factor just don't hold in that alternative and more complex mathematical model.

Bottom line; the Crop-Factor,provides a rough-reckoner to compare the effective framing you get from a lens between crop sensor and full frame sensor cameras, little else. It should not be applied to apertures or aperture settings, or used to infer the effective DoF you may get.. it just does not hold true.

But... motorbikes.... ;-)

Mike, you're looking at it from the wrong end. DoF is not defined at the moment of capture on the sensor, and furthermore, the same focal length and f/number delivers different DoFs according to sensor size - check this with any DoF calculator, eg http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

DoF calculations start with final viewing eg print, not with the lens and sensor. And the underlying fundamental is that average human vision cannot detect anything smaller than 0.2mm from a distance of 25cm (standard viewing distance for a 10in-ish print). That is the basic assumption and everything is worked back from that primary circle of confusion. Any change in magnification of any link in the chain affects the result - print size, viewing distance, sensor format (including any cropping), focal length, aperture (which is also an aspect of magnification in the formula) and shooting distance.

As I'm sure you know, a handy upside is that the formula also holds good for any size image/print, so long as the viewing distance is adjusted proportionately - eg small prints we look at quite closely, larger exhibitions prints we stand back, billboads we look at from across the street but they still look sharp. But if you look at a large print closely, or enlarge 100% on-screen without moving back to the other side of the room, the whole theory goes out of the window.
 
OK.. so, say I shoot a nice selective focus photo of a motorbike in front of a boring car-park hedge with a wide aperture to get nicely rendered bokah background..
Explain, how do I get the hedge back in focus after capture? Or of all the hundreds of Oof'd photo's I have managed to take, do I get them back 'in' focus, in repro?
 
OK.. so, say I shoot a nice selective focus photo of a motorbike in front of a boring car-park hedge with a wide aperture to get nicely rendered bokah background..
Explain, how do I get the hedge back in focus after capture? Or of all the hundreds of Oof'd photo's I have managed to take, do I get them back 'in' focus, in repro?


Easy, you look at them from the other side of the room.

Same as if you look at an apparently ok photo at 200% you will often see parts of it aren't quite as in focus as you thought or if you look at 400% then it is all blurry.
 
OK.. so, say I shoot a nice selective focus photo of a motorbike in front of a boring car-park hedge with a wide aperture to get nicely rendered bokah background..
Explain, how do I get the hedge back in focus after capture? Or of all the hundreds of Oof'd photo's I have managed to take, do I get them back 'in' focus, in repro?

As Ned says below...

Easy, you look at them from the other side of the room.

Same as if you look at an apparently ok photo at 200% you will often see parts of it aren't quite as in focus as you thought or if you look at 400% then it is all blurry.

...or, you print it tiny, like passport photo size - until those out-of-focus areas are rendered small enough to fall within the DoF viewing limit (0.2mm viewed from 25cm). We see this happening when we look at an image on the camera's LCD, where it often looks sharp all over, then zoom in to check the detail and suddenly it's not sharp at all.

Obviously, the image on the sensor is fixed at the time of capture, but that's not the end of the process - there's enlargement in processing that varies with format (and any cropping is an additional enlargement, effectively a change in sensor format) and then output size and viewing distance.

DoF is an optical illusion - nothing is perfectly sharp except at the point of focus, but if the detail is small enough to fall within the DoF parameters, then it will appear perfectly sharp. The DoF formula simply works out the f/number needed to achieve the illusion of perfect sharpness, according to focal length, shooting distance and camera format. The underlying assumption is that those standard viewing conditions are adhered to - and generally that's how images are looked at, we do it unconsciously and automatically adjust viewing distance according to image size. If the viewing distance is approximately equal to the diagonal length of the image, ie a 10in wide print viewed from around 12in, or a 20in print (or on-screen image) from about 24in, then all is good - and so on pro-rata for different sizes.
 
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So.. the short answer is, you CANT bring a bokah background back into sharp focus in repro... B-U-T.. IF you chuck out your own precept over the 'comfortable viewing distance'.. make the picture smaller, make the viewing distance larger, maybe squint a bit.... no-one will notice!!!!!
Oh-Kay! Don't worry what direction you kick the ball... we'll just get the linesmen to run around the pitch with the goal-posts till they catch it!
 
I brought it up because it's mentioned in the OP, and there are errors in TM's reply.

Not for the first time, you have missed the point and in your haste for argument you've contradicted yourself and are actually agreeing with me.

I'm not arguing with you Hoppy and I'm certainly not agreeing with you.

What I'm doing is providing an alternative view to the IMO utterly daft view that DoF isn't set at the moment of capture. Of course it is. Whatever you will see at your intended print size and viewing distance is set when you press the button.

Realising and accepting that your choice of gear and settings (and the distances involved and all the rest) is absolutely crucial to the final image can only help. Your point of view can IMO only bamboozle and confuse people who aren't really sure what's going on.

Yes DoF is an optical illusion but it's one which we can anticipate and predict and being able to anticipate and predict it what we will see at print size X when viewed at viewing distance Y shouldn't come as a complete surprise to us and we should and indeed can use our knowledge of what the final image will look like to choose our gear and settings accordingly to achieve the result we want.

This isn't magic and it isn't Voodoo. It's very largely well understood and predictable not some big mystery that will suddenly and surprisingly be revealed to gasps from the audience when the final picture is printed and viewed.
 
Easy, you look at them from the other side of the room.

Same as if you look at an apparently ok photo at 200% you will often see parts of it aren't quite as in focus as you thought or if you look at 400% then it is all blurry.

I often take pictures intending to crop to 100%. I'm able to do this because I can to a large degree predict what the final result will look like. Funny how taking thousands of pictures leading me to be being able to select my gear and camera settings to get the results I want has all been a waste of time when what I should have been doing all along was deciding what the picture should look like by selecting the pint size and viewing distance later.
 
Guys, there is no argument to be had. I've outlined all the parameters that determine DoF, both pre- and post-capture. They all affect the final result. Feel free to use and abuse them however you like.
 
Guys, there is no argument to be had. ......
Famous last words!

In simple terms it comes down to aperture and magnification where magnification is any or all of the following; subject distance, sensor size, post capture cropping, print size/screen size and finally the viewing distance.
 
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