2nd shooter- main tog using my images on his website!

[keith.l]

Legally, I think the couple own the copyright. The contract is the agreement, the piece of paper just makes it easier in case of a dispute. If both parties agree the terms, then the contact exists, regardless of pieces of paper and signatures.

Morally, I agree with you. He should credit you as the photographer.

But I think you ought to drop him a line. If he's busy, then he probably has a standard workflow, and the pictures from that wedding would have been processed the same as any other, resulting in the images on his website with his copyright. If you ask him to credit you and he refuses, then I'd feel he is morally in the wrong. But until you ask him, you shouldn't judge him.

 

[AliB]

I've worked as a second before and had my images used by the main tog on his website. How else were the couple and their guests going to access them? Working as a second often means giving up the copyright. If you want to keep it or be licenced to use them yourself then you really need to make that clear and ideally have it in writing. It's just an email at the end of the day.

Now I'm in the position of requiring a second shooter for larger events then I need to make sure that these issues are covered too. Public liability needs to be addressed, professional indemnity too.

You'll know what to say next time he comes knocking!

 

[Aimee K]

I've worked as a second before and had my images used by the main tog on his website. How else were the couple and their guests going to access them? Working as a second often means giving up the copyright.

It's not that kind of gallery... he didn't provide them with a gallery, he gave them a proof book to choose from. The gallery is a selection of 30 images from the day used as a portfolio for him as an example of his work. Of which 22 of them are my images.

Hoppy - I didn't agree to give copyright to the couple before hand, I didn't agree to it full stop! I was just told the photographer would have a copy so the couple could make their selection and he could put together the album together for them, making it easier than having two proof books sent to them. I have this all on an e-mail. The copyright contract issue was not disclosed to me until I turned up and the bride said 'sign this', to which I replied 'I will read it later when I am not so busy', and subsequently didn't sign.

As far as I'm concerned I didn't hand over copyright as I did not once say or write that they could have it, so there is no verbal or written contract from me. They signed, the other photographer signed, I didn't.

 

[Aimee K]

I'm not making you feel any better about this, am I? Sorry

No your bl**dy well not! hahaha :razz:

 

[Aimee K]

I think I will ponder this for a little longer, then I might just say to him something along the lines of 'I'm perfectly happy for you to use the images in promoting your photography, but would really appreciate it if you could reference me to them in some way... by link or small note at the bottom of the gallery. And if you get any work from my images, that you would allow me to be the second photographer for these clients' Then I will set my terms with him more firmly and up my rate to him!

 

[MattEg]

Legally the couple do not own anything!

In 1988, the law changed to give original artists (including photographers) more protection for their work.
Unless you/they have a signed agreement, they have not rights to the images (my understanding of the copyright act 1988)
The only occasion where you would not own the copyright to photographs you have taken is when someone else employs you, (i.e taking a photo at work).
A commission by a second party does not mean they have automatic rights to your images.
Unless they have it in writing signed by the copyright holder (the photographer), they have no rights regarding copyright.

Have a look at the links below for some more insight:

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/copy/c-applies/c-artisticworks/c-photo/c-photo-ownpost89.htm
http://www.addison-mcgrath.com/other.html

Its in your interest to know this law inside and out, its the only protection you have for your work.

HTH

 

[gman]

Hoppy - I didn't agree to give copyright to the couple before hand, I didn't agree to it full stop!

But in your opening post you said you were supposed to sign over the copyright to the couple but never got a chance. Or am I not reading this right? :shrug:

 

[Royston Vasey]

When will people learn that when getting into wedding photography you need to do it correctly. CONTRACTS PLEASE.

 

[HoppyUK]

Hoppy - I didn't agree to give copyright to the couple before hand, I didn't agree to it full stop! I was just told the photographer would have a copy so the couple could make their selection and he could put together the album together for them, making it easier than having two proof books sent to them. I have this all on an e-mail. The copyright contract issue was not disclosed to me until I turned up and the bride said 'sign this', to which I replied 'I will read it later when I am not so busy', and subsequently didn't sign.

As far as I'm concerned I didn't hand over copyright as I did not once say or write that they could have it, so there is no verbal or written contract from me. They signed, the other photographer signed, I didn't.

Now that you have given more clarity on this, I'm inclined to change my view a bit. I still think you should have got this sorted out professionally before hand, and you can't go around blaming others for that, but I'm sure you will in future.

The change in my thinking now is around the moral issue. I was under the impression that while you hadn't signed away copyright, you had effectively agree to it, and were neither surprised nor upset at the propspect. But for anyone to throw new terms at you just before the event is out of order. Sorry if I hadn't picked this up clearly before, but I enjoyed the debate anyway

I think the conclusion you've outlined in your post above is a good one. Water under the bridge and all that, and try to turn the circumstances to your advantage.

Luckily my wedding was pre the 1988 copyright act so I/we own them. This didn't stop a wedding photographer in a nearby town getting hold of one of the pictures and using it as a flyer for his own business. I saw it pinned up in a fish and chip shop. Call me cod face

 

[photon]

You didn't assign your copyright. Their contract was unusual, so they should have assured it was agreed to and signed. Your provision of images for approval etc confers no rights.

 

[Aimee K]

But in your opening post you said you were supposed to sign over the copyright to the couple but never got a chance. Or am I not reading this right? :shrug:

No that's right. They produced this contract which they wanted signing there and then, I wouldn't sign it until I'd read what I was I was meant to be signing, but at the time was too busy to look at it, then I didn't get the chance to for the rest of the day. It wasn't until I got home that I looked at it properly, and didn't sign... but then I forgot about it anyway until I was sorting out my paperwork the other day and remembered to have a nosey at the other photographers website. And they haven't chased me for a signed copy either.

To be fair, I would have signed it had I have known about it in advance and got a better fee for it.


Matt - thanks for the info, very helpful. I had a look at something similar yesterday and got the same thought from that too. Which is what started me off with the question!

 

[Aimee K]

but I enjoyed the debate anyway

Me too!


Royston - I ALWAYS make sure my clients have a contract to sign, which they sign and give back when they are giving me a deposit. And I make sure the second has the same contract, so they know my terms too. And if they have asked for a CD with copyright, this is contracted to anyone involved in the wedding.

I've learnt from my mistakes in the past - and they were post this one! lol.

 

[MattEg]

Matt - thanks for the info, very helpful. I had a look at something similar yesterday and got the same thought from that too. Which is what started me off with the question!

No problem Aimee.
I had an issue a couple of years ago, so made a point of digesting some of the act for my argument, along with data protection, and model/property release.

I would ask the website owner to remove your images, or at least give you the credit.
Obviously, he doesn't know the law or is he is being blatantly ignorant.

 

[EOS_JD]

Thanks EOS - The couple had asked that all photos go to the main photographer as he was setting up the proof book and album for them.

Why did you give him the originals? If he wanted them you could easily have provided small jpg images a day later!

Never give away images without a contract. Challenge him if you feel up to it. He has no contract with you so maybe you can argue the point. Ask him to remove the images From the web.

Or just put it down to experience.