2ND/REAR CURTAIN SYNC

Aidan Morrissey

Aidan Morrissey

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Aidan Morrissey
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HI!

This is my first post, basically I have been trying to enable 2nd or rear curtain sync on my canon 650D. I originally bought a Yongnuo YN560-II, and could not get it working. I now have a Sigma EF-610 DG ST (not the super) and still cannot seem to enable it, does anyone know if there is a fix for this or what flashgun I should get to be able to enable it?
Thanks
 
The obvious question first, Aidan....you don't have your shutter speed too high do you?

Bob
 
Thanks for the reply guys, yes the Sigma is TTL enabled, however the menus in my 650D give an option for 1st curtain sync, in the external flahs function settings alongside flash exposure compensation and bracketing, but it is unchangeable. Also, Bob, this is all with my shutter speed at a full second, unless that isn't slow enough?
 
Change the settings on the flash? I doubt the old sigma will talk with a modern canon body this far. 580EX mk1 can't do this either (not that it matters in real life though)
 
The flash doesn't have many settings to change on its body, only a switch from off to TTL to Mh and Ml, which I'm not completely sure I know what they mean yet
 
You can stop trying with the YN-560, it's not compatible with rear curtain sync unless fired by a compatible trigger..

Bob
 
I have quite a while ago, just the sigma I have been trying with now. Scrubbed through quite a lot online and it seems unless you have the "Super" version of the flash it doesn't look like it works. Oh well, cheers guys!
 
The spec for the "non-Super" on the Sigma website says that it will work.

Bob
 
Seems weird that you need a dedicated flashgun for rear sync. Every Nikon I've ever had it's determined by the camera, and works with any flash, even fully manual flash connected via a non TTL sync cable, including studio flash. The camera just fires the flash before the second curtain closes.

You sure about needing a certain kind of flashgun on a Canon? A serious limitation if that's the case.

Are we talking about remote triggering with radio, IR or the built in flash here?
 
Cheers Bob, thanks for all the help. Pookeyhead, Canon can SORT of do it with the built-in flash, it fires both first and second curtain, which I find extremely weird too. But obviously the on-board flash doesn't work anywhere near as well as the Sigma, and for some reason the option is blacked out. I agree, its a massive limitation, that is now two flashguns I have bought or been given, neither of which can do it, oh well.
 
Pookeyhead said:
Seems weird that you need a dedicated flashgun for rear sync.
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Exactly what I was thinking. The camera tells the flash when to fire.

Any flash should be able to do it if you can turn off any clever stuff it has and use it in a dumb mode.


Steve.
 
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Steve Smith said:
....Any flash should be able to do it if you can turn off any clever stuff it has and use it in a dumb mode.
Steve.
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That's not quite as it may seem, Steve. If there's a delay between triggering and the flash output in first curtain then there's nothing lost but the same delay with second curtain would result in partial non-exposure (the flash portion of the exposure at least) as the curtain would already have started to close. Canon can do it with their own guns as they know the delay time and trigger accordingly. Logic would indicate that second curtain sync should be available almost up to x-sync speed but the flash delay prevents this being possible.

Bob
 
With Canon, second-curtain sync is part of the E-TTL functionality - that's just the way they do it, eg it's only available through the hot-shoe contacts and not via the PC sync port. Bizarrely, second-curtain sync is not available remotely with the standard Canon system (even with RT guns) unless the remote gun is hard wired to the hot-shoe on a dedicated cord. On the other hand, I think every third-party E-TTL trigger system supports remote second-curtain sync so why Canon doesn't is a bit of a mystery.

As Bob says, even with second-curtain sync enabled, it's only active at shutter speeds below 1/30sec. Canon's timing is pretty sloppy (presumably to accommodate all Canon guns/cameras over the years) which is where Pocket Wizard are able to score a modest advantage by tightening things up on a model-specific basis with their Mini/Flex system. But it makes very little sense to have second-curtain sync available at faster shutter speeds than 1/30sec or so, bearing in mind that the flash is not fired at the end of the exposure, as is commonly quoted, but at the moment just before the second curtain begins to close. For second-curtain sync to be really effective, expose times of at least 1/8sec to 1/4sec min are best.
 
HoppyUK said:
With Canon, second-curtain sync is part of the E-TTL functionality - that's just the way they do it, eg it's only available through the hot-shoe contacts and not via the PC sync port. .
Click to expand...


Great... a camera system that's gimped for studio flash use. That's absolutely, shockingly bad.

Why only below 1/30th? I remember doing a job for an archery club where I made very good use of rear sync and 125th.

HoppyUK said:
For second-curtain sync to be really effective, expose times of at least 1/8sec to 1/4sec min are best.
Click to expand...

But technically no real reason why it can't be used up to the sync speed of the shutter. They;ve just decided you don't want it at less than 1/30th. I love it when a camera manufacturer decides what you're going to shoot for you. LOL


I'm off to check my camera. Not used rear sync for ages... I hope Nikon aren't doing this crap as well. At least I can use it via the PC sync socket though, and in manual, with studio flash.
 
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Pookeyhead said:
Great... a camera system that's gimped for studio flash use. That's absolutely, shockingly bad.

Why only below 1/30th? I remember doing a job for an archery club where I made very good use of rear sync and 125th.



But technically no real reason why it can't be used up to the sync speed of the shutter. They;ve just decided you don't want it at less than 1/30th. I love it when a camera manufacturer decides what you're going to shoot for you. LOL


I'm off to check my camera. Not used rear sync for ages... I hope Nikon aren't doing this crap as well. At least I can use it via the PC sync socket though, and in manual, with studio flash.
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LOL Somehow we get by ;) It's never been hard to get second-curtain sync with Canons via workarounds, in any situation, and never easier than today with third-party E-TTL triggers. Can't remember when I last used a PC sync socket, and I hope I never have to again.

I have a very vague and distant memory that Canon's technical stance on this might be patent related. Nikon acquired a bunch of Minolta flash patents many years ago and this might have been part of it. I've posted this idea a few times, but nobody has been able to confirm.
 
HoppyUK said:
LOL Somehow we get by ;) It's never been hard to get second-curtain sync with Canons via workarounds, in any situation, and never easier than today with third-party E-TTL triggers. Can't remember when I last used a PC sync socket, and I hope I never have to again..
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It's not just about PC sync sockets... it's the fact that Canon cameras will not be able to use rear curtain sync with manual studio flash (meaning the majority of studio flash). Defend your brand all you want, but that's crap.. it just is. Even if you never set foot in a studio yourself, you have to admit that's crap.
 
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Pookeyhead said:
It's not just about PC sync sockets... it's the fact that Canon cameras will not be able to use rear curtain sync with manual studio flash (meaning the majority of studio flash). Defend your brand all you want, but that's crap.. it just is. Even if you never set foot in a studio yourself, you have to admit that's crap.
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Canon cameras can use rear curtain sync with manual strobes but not from the pc socket. PW Flex TT5's work fine.

Bob
 
Pookeyhead said:
It's not just about PC sync sockets... it's the fact that Canon cameras will not be able to use rear curtain sync with manual studio flash (meaning the majority of studio flash). Defend your brand all you want, but that's crap.. it just is. Even if you never set foot in a studio yourself, you have to admit that's crap.
Click to expand...

But that's not a fact, not true, and never has been (via workarounds, optical slave etc) and as I said above, and Bob has reiterated, any flavour of second-curtain sync is available with any third-party brand of E-TTL trigger that I'm aware of. Or the old workaround, that I still use - all you need is an E-TTL enabled gun (of any brand) and an optical slave for a tenner plugged into a cheapo manual radio trigger. Something like this, though the version I currently use is much neater in a self-contained unit, based on a little Canon 270EX gun. But I don't have an image of that to hand, and this shows the workings.

 
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HoppyUK said:
But that's not a fact, not true, and never has been (via workarounds, optical slave etc) and as I said above, and Bob has reiterated, any flavour of second-curtain sync is available with any third-party brand of E-TTL trigger that I'm aware of. Or the old workaround, that I still use - all you need is an E-TTL enabled gun (of any brand) and an optical slave for a tenner plugged into a cheapo manual radio trigger. Something like this, though the version I currently use is much neater in a self-contained unit, based on a little Canon 270EX gun. But I don't have an image of that to hand, and this shows the workings.

Click to expand...


You shouldn't have t buy pocket wizards, TTL triggers or that.... err.. solution you posted :)

I think the whole thing stinks. They've decided to limit the creative potential of studio photographers for no apparent reason other than to to make you buy more stuff. Sorry.... it's indefensible.
 
Genuine question, David.....how does Nikon fire studio strobes in second curtain without buying additional kit?

Bob
 
It just triggers the flash prior to the second curtain closing.... just the timing of the signal I should imagine. It just doesn't seem to care whether it's in TTL or manual... I've always got the rear curtain sync option.
 
Sends a voltage to the flash terminal like any other camera does I imagine, then the flash fires in response.
 
We're talking at cross-purposes here, David. You stated that Canon bodies need additional gear to communicate with the flash and implied that Nikon don't. How does a Nikon body communicate....ie, is there an inbuilt flash trigger or such like? I've only ever used Canon along with radio triggers or optical using the monoblocs firing off the Canon flash.
 
Canon Bob said:
We're talking at cross-purposes here, David. You stated that Canon bodies need additional gear to communicate with the flash and implied that Nikon don't. How does a Nikon body communicate....ie, is there an inbuilt flash trigger or such like? I've only ever used Canon along with radio triggers or optical using the monoblocs firing off the Canon flash.
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No Nikon still need raido (or IR) triggers to communicate the signal. I'm told the Nikon signals generally are tighter timed then the Canons. I also know the Nikon system for 2nd curtian sync does not work with a bulb exposure (there is no close signal, the flash will just fire while the shutter is fully open)
 
Canon Bob said:
We're talking at cross-purposes here, David. You stated that Canon bodies need additional gear to communicate with the flash and implied that Nikon don't.
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I meant it needs additional gear to trigger studio flash if you want to use rear sync, as it can't do it via the sync socket apparently.
 
Pookeyhead said:
I meant it needs additional gear to trigger studio flash if you want to use rear sync, as it can't do it via the sync socket apparently.
Click to expand...
Okay, it makes sense now. In my "nikignorance" I wondered if they had some way of knowing/learning the monobloc's delay.

Bob
 
Canon Bob said:
Okay, it makes sense now. In my "nikignorance" I wondered if they had some way of knowing/learning the monobloc's delay.

Bob
Click to expand...


Not that I'm aware of.
 
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