20p - would you have?

SarahLee said:
:thumbs: Wouldn't life be dull if we were all the same? Absolutely nothing wrong with different opinions - and IMO healthy debate is actually good for the forum as long as it stays civil.

I've seen enough of these sort of threads on here and other forums though, to know when things are at that turning point of getting personal. I'd far prefer people to take a step away now and just think before they post, rather than wait for it to get to the point where we have to think about closing threads / giving people some time out.
Click to expand...

I'm glad you posted this as I was going to comment. It sounds like you are just reminding everyone to keep it civil as you felt this was on the turn, rather than this already being ready to close and dish out the punishment.
 
ding76uk said:
But that is the point I am making. We are both arguing different sides of the same coin. The facts have not been released and the only stories are in the press which are obviously going to paint a picture designed to promote outrage amongst the readership so a balanced argument is low on their list of priorities.

The only people who will truly know what went on within that bus conversation are the driver and the girl. Truth be told he may have been a jobs worth, she could have been verbally abusive. Passers by should have helped with 20p, but may have seen an argumentative young girl being an arse, or they may have been all complete ignorant idiots. We will never know.
Click to expand...

I will grant you that neither of us know the actual facts as recounted in court - where we differ is that, (whilst accepting clearly that the papers often 'embellish' or sensationalize the truth), when reviewing the reports (including the after-court comments by the police officer in charge of the case) I do not believe there is anything to indicate that the girl did anything to warrant being turned off the bus.
In the absence of anything to the contrary, though accepting that some people could be awkward and antagonistic in such a situation, I do not find it necessary to paint this girl as a villain. IMO the worst that can be said about her is that she was foolish not to have been prepared with the fare ... however she paid an extreme penalty for that error.
 
joescrivens said:
I'm glad you posted this as I was going to comment. It sounds like you are just reminding everyone to keep it civil as you felt this was on the turn, rather than this already being ready to close and dish out the punishment.
Click to expand...

Yep - that was the intention. Nothing more, nothing less :)
Just wanted people to stop and think about what they were posting before this one started getting personal.

Anyway, back on topic (civilly ;) ) now.
 
I know someone who is currently serving a life sentance for murder, he admitted doing it, albeit accidently and belives he deserves to be in prison
Sadly it was a 16 yo old girl he met in a night club, things got a bit out of hand later and she died
Not in anyway trying to excuse what happened, but the papers reported that she was a good intelligent girl, parents said she worked hard studying etc a model daughter.
Ok so WTF was she doing drinking in a night club till the early hours of the morning and going off with a bloke she had never met before :shrug:
Nothing was ever said in the press about that, so not everyyjing is as black and white as reported
 
Last edited:
Gremlin said:
I know someone who is currently serving a life sentance for murder, he admitted doing it, albeit accidently and belives he deserves to be in prison
Sadly it was a 16 yo old girl he met in a night club, things got a bit out of hand later and she died
Not in anyway trying to excuse what happened, but the papers reported that she was a good intelligent girl, parents said she was worked hard studying etc a model daughter.
Ok so WTF was she doing drinking in a night club till the early hours of the morning and going off with a bloke she had never met before :shrug:
Nothing was ever said in the press about that, so not everyhting is as black and white as reported
Click to expand...

That, sadly, almost sounds like she deserved it. Let me just clarify that is NOT what I think.
 
gramps said:
I'm glad you quickly clarified that!
Click to expand...

What I meant is that reading Gremlin's post it seemed to me that was what was being implied. Probably without it being realized.
 
Nope that's not what I meant, I was just say that the full story is not always reported, no one deserves to be murdered or raped, but often the victim is shown as being almost perfect and blame is accorded elsewhere, as with the bus driver.
No one really knows why he wouldn't let her on the bus, he may have done it before and been penalised for it, bus conpany aren't going to admit it, some do make the drivers pay any shortfall in their takings.
Some taxi drivers won't take drunk passengers because of the risk of them being sick, would we be saying the same if this had been the case :shrug:
Without the full details you can't really say
 
Ricardodaforce said:
What I meant is that reading Gremlin's post it seemed to me that was what was being implied. Probably without it being realized.
Click to expand...

To be fair to Ingrid I think what she was saying is that victims are always canonized in the press, and no one ever touches on them may be bearing some responsibility for their own circumstances

For example a guy i was at college with got tanked up one night (Booze,Whiz and Coke) and while totally off his tits drove his dads mondeo into a tree at about 60mph.

Now I'm not saying he deserved to die or anything, and obviously it was very sad for his parents and freinds, but the local papers were full of all these people from his primary school teachers up saying what a wonderful human being he was, and how he was a perfect student, and the perfect exemplar of manhood etc :puke:

Now I knew him quite well , and while he was an okay guy a perfect student he was not - he barely scraped into uni after partying his way through his A level years, and proceeded to do the same at uni - hence the driving into a tree while totally off his cake.

I'm not judging him (for a start I was no less of a party animal myself) but the perfect , wonderful loss to humanity decribed in the papers was a total fiction.
 
big soft moose said:
To be fair to Ingrid I think what she was saying is that victims are always canonized in the press, and no one ever touches on them may be bearing some responsibility for their own circumstances
Click to expand...

Thanks Pete that is exactly what I was trying to say :)
 
I'd have given her the 20p.... But I've done the same at a parking meter... It's an awful situation but the man who raped her is the person who is too blame for this not the bus driver, she should have ensured she had enough money & he could have waivered slightly seeing as he was the last service. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, pity it comes too late.
 
gramps said:
many neighbours don't even speak to/know one another
Click to expand...

I don't know my neighbours and I've lived here almost two years. I've seen one of them on one side a couple of times and said hello, and talked to one of the otherside once - last week when I knocked on their door at 9.30pm when I got home and saw they'd left the lights on on one of their cars.

They are detached houses, I am rarely in the garden to see them and in any case there's an 8' hedge along one boundary, and I'm never in the road unless I'm in my car. When would I ever see them to talk to them?

When I lived in the same village 20 years ago in a terraced house I knew the neighbours on both sides, but there wasn't the separation that having detached houses gives.
 
Flash In The Pan said:
I know where it is.....
Click to expand...

the reason I asked was because some folk were saying there was a north/south divide thing going on, so I just asked whether notts was N or S

I know where it is cos my son lives there :nuts:
 
I've read a lot about this story.

I personally would have given her 20p if I had it but I don't carry much cash.

I will say - this is the last nightbus - most passengers would have been drunk/in own world/half asleep, they probably didn't realise what was going on.

The driver is probably subjected to it's only 20p mate a million times a week, this was just 1 more to him, and I have no doubt he is regularly abused in the course of his job - Which I would imagine is what made him hard hearted.

Police have suggested this man was on the prowl - giving her the 20p would probably have created an other victim. And if there was no "sensational" aspect to the story we would never have known

Only 3% of rape/sexual assault is stranger related and the conviction rate for those reported to the police is a measly 6%, given under reporting rates i have read estimates that only 1.2% will result in conviction.

I know this case has touched nerves with many people, but the whole attitude to rape/sexual assault needs to change and service provision for victims needs massive improvement and investment.

If everyone who expresses their horror at this event donates a few pounds to the relevant charities (not just those on this forum) and lobbies their MPs to find out how active they are in this field - then we will see some change.

But as that isn't likely to happy, then nothing will change
 
Gremlin said:
I know someone who is currently serving a life sentance for murder, he admitted doing it, albeit accidently and belives he deserves to be in prison
Sadly it was a 16 yo old girl he met in a night club, things got a bit out of hand later and she died
Not in anyway trying to excuse what happened, but the papers reported that she was a good intelligent girl, parents said she worked hard studying etc a model daughter.
Ok so WTF was she doing drinking in a night club till the early hours of the morning and going off with a bloke she had never met before :shrug:
Nothing was ever said in the press about that, so not everyyjing is as black and white as reported
Click to expand...

Nice piece of victim blaming there.
 
jomantha said:
Nice piece of victim blaming there.
Click to expand...

I just knew someone was going to say that - however i think you've missed ingrids point

no-one (here at least) is saying that the victim was totally to blame in the sort of "she was asking for it, the way she was dressed innit" style which is all too common.

No one deserves to get raped, and the main proportion of the blame must lie with the perpetrator

However if we are going to blame an uninvolved bus driver for not having the foresight not to leave her at the bus stop, then its equally acceptable to say that the girl concerned should have had the foresight to have the fare on her.

Also in the case ingrid cites - clearly the victim is not predominantly to blame,(indeed ingrid says that everyone including the killer accepts that he is to blame for what happened. However Ingrids core point was that the victim in that case cannot have been the saintly good girl that the press made out.
 
What relevance has it to why the girl was murdered - was a guilty plea entered at first opportunity or was the family put through a trial??

She was a 16 year old girl who drank and went clubbing and lost her life - it doesn't mean she wasn't hard working, or all the good things her friends and family described.

I didn't miss Ingrids point - I just didn't agree with it. What is to be achieved from discussing the bad points of a 16 year old who has died? Nothing.
 
However if we are going to blame an uninvolved bus driver for not having the foresight not to leave her at the bus stop, then its equally acceptable to say that the girl concerned should have had the foresight to have the fare on her.

This however I agree with - in my eyes the only person at fault is the rapist - you could equally question why she was alone, why her mother didn't collect her (her mother was out looking for her).

But no one is to blame other than the rapist.
 
jomantha said:
However if we are going to blame an uninvolved bus driver for not having the foresight not to leave her at the bus stop, then its equally acceptable to say that the girl concerned should have had the foresight to have the fare on her.
Click to expand...

Don't think it's the driver's "foresight" that is in question, it's his common sense.
 
I was quoting someone else - I don't blame the driver - I think - sadly this girl for him was the straw and camels back.
 
jomantha said:
What is to be achieved from discussing the bad points of a 16 year old who has died? Nothing.
Click to expand...

The trouble with that is that if the media canonize every victim as this perfect model person who did nothing wrong in their entire life, then it neglects the lessons that are there to be learnt for others who are similar

e.g while of course she didnt deserve to be killed and the perpetrator must take the blame for that

had she not been in a club with a false Id it wouldnt have happened

had she not been drinking illegally she might have displayed better judgement

had she not gone off with a bloke she didnt know very well it wouldnt have happened.

and so on

By portraying her as the perfect virginal princess who's been snatched away by an evil monster and is completely blameless of any misjudgement that put nher in harms way we inherently say that there is nothing wrong with going out drinking underage and going off with blokes you don't know... and thats a very dangerous message to be giving out.
 
joescrivens said:
main proportion?

For me it should be:
Click to expand...

All the blame for the rape must lay with the perpetrator - however i said main proportion in regard to the whole incident because had she not been in harms way she wouldnt have been his victim (reading between the lines the chances are he'd have assaulted someone eventually).

Had she had the sense to keep her bus fare seperate to her drinking money

had the bus driver waived the 20p

had another passenger lent her the money

had she not been alone

had her mum known where to find her

etc

as I was just saying in regard of the incident ingrid mentioned pretending that there were no contributing circumstances other than the offenders monstrsity does nothing to teach the hard won lessons to other potential victims (e.g make sure you've got your bus fare, don't leave your freinds alone at the end of the night, make sure you've got a mobile and someone you can call etc) or to the others involved (e.g the bus company will now make sure its drivers know where the lines lay in terms of when a small ammount can be waived etc)
 
big soft moose said:
The trouble with that is that if the media canonize every victim as this perfect model person who did nothing wrong in their entire life, then it neglects the lessons that are there to be learnt for others who are similar

e.g while of course she didnt deserve to be killed and the perpetrator must take the blame for that

had she not been in a club with a false Id it wouldnt have happened

had she not been drinking illegally she might have displayed better judgement

had she not gone off with a bloke she didnt know very well it wouldnt have happened.

and so on

By portraying her as the perfect virginal princess who's been snatched away by an evil monster and is completely blameless of any misjudgement that put nher in harms way we inherently say that there is nothing wrong with going out drinking underage and going off with blokes you don't know... and thats a very dangerous message to be giving out.
Click to expand...

She died - I think that makes it perfectly clear that drinking and going off with a bloke you don't know *can* be dangerous if you have the misfortune to meet the wrong bloke.

But the fact is in most instances the things she did would not have led to her death - culpability lies with the murderer, thankfully relatively few teenage escapades end like this.

And the fact she went clubbing probably doesn't mean she wasn't a studious, hard working girl who was well loved by her family and friends.

It's a dangerous message to send that a victim is culpable for becoming a victim because it allows criminals to begin to excuse their violent behaviour - even if only to themselves. She didn't put herself in harms way - harm was waiting to happen to her. Different night, decent bloke, she'd have been fine.
 
jomantha said:
She died - I think that makes it perfectly clear that drinking and going off with a bloke you don't know *can* be dangerous if you have the misfortune to meet the wrong bloke.

But the fact is in most instances the things she did would not have led to her death - culpability lies with the murderer, thankfully relatively few teenage escapades end like this.

And the fact she went clubbing probably doesn't mean she wasn't a studious, hard working girl who was well loved by her family and friends.

It's a dangerous message to send that a victim is culpable for becoming a victim because it allows criminals to begin to excuse their violent behaviour - even if only to themselves. She didn't put herself in harms way - harm was waiting to happen to her. Different night, decent bloke, she'd have been fine.
Click to expand...

Is that really the message you would give to other 16 year old girls?
 
jomantha said:
It's a dangerous message to send that a victim is culpable for becoming a victim because it allows criminals to begin to excuse their violent behaviour - even if only to themselves. She didn't put herself in harms way - harm was waiting to happen to her. Different night, decent bloke, she'd have been fine.
Click to expand...

I don't agree that it does

If you park a desirable sports car in the centre of a run down urban area and leave the doors unlocked, and the keys in the ignition , the car thief who steals it will still commit an offence and be unable to shift his culpability in court (well you see it was unlocked m'lud so I had to nick it innit )

But what advice do you think a crime prevention officer would give about this behavior.

Harm is often 'waiting to happen' to someone, but a sensible , well prepared person will avoid it more often than some who takes daft chances and thus puts themselves in its way

IMO it is more dangerous to suggest that victims are never culpable as that sends the message that its just bad luck, and could have happened to anyone , which in turn suggests that there is no need to take sensible precautions to keep ones self safe.

But we are going to have to agree to differ on this one

Daysleeper40 said:
Is that really the message you would give to other 16 year old girls?
Click to expand...

:thumbs: exactomundo
 
Last edited:
97% of rape/sexual assault is someone you know - it's "stranger danger" that is the wrong message to 16 year old girls.

I know exactly what message I give 16 year old girls - we have 1 - and it's not that going clubbing/getting drunk means you are "asking for it" in anyway shape or form.
 
jomantha said:
I know exactly what message I give 16 year old girls - we have 1 - and it's not that going clubbing/getting drunk means you are "asking for it" in anyway shape or form.
Click to expand...

yeah but you don't give the message that at 16 going out getting drunk and walking home alone is fine.

No one says they are asking for it, people are trying to say precaution is best and that message is one that should be put out from this, not that a bus driver is a jobs worth
 
big soft moose said:
IMO it is more dangerous to suggest that victims are never culpable as that sends the message that its just bad luck, and could have happened to anyoneo
Click to expand...

But that's the problem - rape can and does happen to anyone, at all times of the day and night and despite how cautious people are.

Dark alley, dark night - it's rare and unusual - it's just the most widely publicised.
 
jomantha said:
97% of rape/sexual assault is someone you know - it's "stranger danger" that is the wrong message to 16 year old girls.

I know exactly what message I give 16 year old girls - we have 1 - and it's not that going clubbing/getting drunk means you are "asking for it" in anyway shape or form.
Click to expand...

I would hope that the message to a 16 year old was not to go out clubbing and get drunk

It's illegal and not something to be encouraged !

My girls at 18 were always picked up by a parent or had arranged transport before hand, As parents we and their friends parents took it in turns, inconvenient maybe, but the girls stayed safe
 
Gremlin said:
I would hope that the message to a 16 year old was not to go out clubbing and get drunk

It's illegal and not something to be encouraged !

My girls at 18 were always picked up by a parent or had arranged transport before hand, As parents we and their friends parents took it in turns, inconvenient maybe, but the girls stayed safe
Click to expand...

With you there - regardless of gender - but then I also pick up/drop off hubby and he me

But they are going to go clubbing and drinking and 16/18/35 - they still aren't to blame if something happens.
 
jomantha said:
With you there - regardless of gender - but then I also pick up/drop off hubby and he me

But they are going to go clubbing and drinking and 16/18/35 - they still aren't to blame if something happens.
Click to expand...

Honestly? No responsibility at all? If you deliberately put yourself at risk, you have to accept some of the blame if it all goes wrong.

This "it's everyone else's fault" mentality is far too prevalent in modern society.
 
jomantha said:
With you there - regardless of gender - but then I also pick up/drop off hubby and he me

But they are going to go clubbing and drinking and 16/18/35 - they still aren't to blame if something happens.
Click to expand...

Not 'to blame'... but you are able to mitigate the risk of something happening. By giving the message harm is / was just "waiting to happen" you are putting the potential victim in a completely passive position where their actions are meaningless. I think that is a dangerous message to give anyone - especially young people who are likely to make poor judgements.

As a 16 year old who has gone clubbing, got drunk, missed the bus / run out of money you do have a choice of what to do.

Maybe:
- walk home alone in the middle of the night?
- spend the night with a total stranger?
- call your parents for a lift even though they will be really angry with you?
etc etc...

I don't believe for a second you would say to your daughter "choose any option - it doesn't matter, you're more likely to be raped by a relative or someone you know anyway".
 
Someone cant be raped - if a rapist isn't waiting to prey on someone weaker than himself.

I don't subscribe to victim blaming, nor do I subscribed to the view that somehow women (and men) are responsible for getting raped.

If you are genuinely interested this is a good link

http://www.ncvc.org/ncvc/main.aspx?dbName=DocumentViewer&DocumentID=32306

It's not Uk based but it's well written - Uk stats are worse.

Sadly some of this thread perpetuates victim blaming and rape myths - until this culture changes - victims will always be scared to come forward and rape prosecutions and conviction rates will continue to be abysmally poor.

In no way is a 16 year old in any way responsible for being murdered.
 
Daysleeper40 said:
Not 'to blame'... but you are able to mitigate the risk of something happening. By giving the message harm is / was just "waiting to happen" you are putting the potential victim in a completely passive position where their actions are meaningless. I think that is a dangerous message to give anyone - especially young people who are likely to make poor judgements.

As a 16 year old who has gone clubbing, got drunk, missed the bus / run out of money you do have a choice of what to do.

Maybe:
- walk home alone in the middle of the night?
- spend the night with a total stranger?
- call your parents for a lift even though they will be really angry with you?
etc etc...

I don't believe for a second you would say to your daughter "choose any option - it doesn't matter, you're more likely to be raped by a relative or someone you know anyway".
Click to expand...

So what would you do - tell them it was their fault in the first place - for going clubbing etc.
 
I don't actually think anyone is saying that it is, more that there are precautions you can take to try and prevent such things happening to you, ok sometimes circumstances dictate otherwise and that doesn't only apply to the young
Of course the perpetrator is totally at fault. it's just that we can hopefully do things that mean we don't give them the opportunity

jomantha said:
So what would you do - tell them it was their fault in the first place - for going clubbing etc.
Click to expand...

No but I wouldn't give a 16yo the opportunity to go clubbing in the first place and would hope if they did the clubs would follow the rules and ask for ID
So there you go someone else to blame !!
 
Last edited:
jomantha said:
Sadly some of this thread perpetuates victim blaming and rape myths - until this culture changes - victims will always be scared to come forward and rape prosecutions and conviction rates will continue to be abysmally poor.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry but it really beggars beleif how you have tried to pigeon hole everryone who disagrees with you as bigots who believe rape victims were 'asking for it'

I specifically said that wasnt the case about 15 posts earlier.

Of course everyone here accepts that the blame for the offence taking place rests soley with the offender (and that goes for pretty much any crime - even if you leave your wallet unattended while you go to the toilet the offence is still thev fault of the theif that steals it)

However there is a difference between being 'to blame' and taking responsibility for your actions and circumstances .. if you don't leave your wallet unattended it is less likely to get stolen , and if you don't get ratted and go home with random strangers you are less likely to come to harm (or equally for that matter if you make sure you have your bus fare and don't wind up wandering the streets of nottingham at 3am)

Constantly claiming that whether you get attacked or not is soley the choice of the criminal is disempowering to potential victims - you can't chose whether or not you get attacked but you can choose whether you make yourself a hard target or an easy one, which is the point being made here.

Even if you chose not to take any precautions and regularly get rat arsed and go home with random strangers it doesnt mean that you are asking for it or deserve it if something bad happens, just that this wasn't very sensible or in anway to be recomended
 
Last edited:
Gremlin said:
No but I wouldn't give a 16yo the opportunity to go clubbing in the first place and would hope if they did the clubs would follow the rules and ask for ID
So there you go someone else to blame !!
Click to expand...

If you think you can control everything a 16 year old does you are living in an alternative world.
 
Can we not just all agree to disagree as this is begining to get personal - we all agree that the perpetrator is to blame for the offence - lets just take a step back and count to ten before anyone says anything they later regret
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top