20p - would you have?

RichardtheSane said:
she offered to go to the cash machine. This machine is very close to the bus stop, and ahead of the bus, so the driver could have waited the two minutes and seen she was actually getting cash.

Very sad really.
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But she had 8 minutes to go the the cash machine and back. Why did she spend all that time whilst the bus was parked and passengers were getting on talking to the driver instead of just going to the cash machine in the first place?
 
cambsno said:
But... multiply those 2 minutes for people to get cash out and all of a sudden buses are delayed by 30 mins and everyone is moaning!!

It is great to be wise after the event.
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As I pointed out earlier, she stood remonstrating/ pleading with the driver for 8 minutes whilst other passengers boarded, the time spent arguing could have been used to go to the cash machine instead....
 
joescrivens said:
can you direct me to the cctv footage so i can see?
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AFAIK this has not been publicly released.

joescrivens said:
But she had 8 minutes to go the the cash machine and back. Why did she spend all that time whilst the bus was parked and passengers were getting on talking to the driver instead of just going to the cash machine in the first place?
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I'm guessing here but could it be that she suspected that an 'uncooperative' driver (who reportedly did refuse to wait whilst she went to the cash dispenser) would drive off before she got back?
 
Flash In The Pan said:
As I pointed out earlier, she stood remonstrating/ pleading with the driver for 8 minutes whilst other passengers boarded, the time spent arguing could have been used to go to the cash machine instead....
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This is true, but do you honestly think the driver would have waited once those other passengers had got on.
 
joescrivens said:
can you direct me to the cctv footage so i can see?
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I don't think it's available to the public, but no newspaper reports speak of any threatening behavior, nor does the bus company, or the driver, so one can assume she wasn't being aggressive or rude
 
gramps said:
AFAIK this has not been publicly released.
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London Headshots said:
I don't think it's available to the public, but no newspaper reports speak of any threatening behavior, nor does the bus company, or the driver, so one can assume she wasn't being aggressive or rude
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Oh right, you guys were talking about the cctv like you had seen it, so it's just reports of the cctv footage that you are referring to?

The driver hasn't even been made public. So he/she is saying nothing. The bus company wants this to go away as soon as possible and will not contest anything that has this amount of public outrage.

The newspapers .... well, it's certanly a better story to paint the girl like she was an angel just asking for 20p. The reality could be much different. It could also not be. But often things aren't what they seem.

Nowhere I have read says that she asked a single passenger for 20p. At 3am the clientele getting on the bus were very likely inebriated and doubt that many of them even paid attention to her or what her issue was. It's not like she was making the bus late, it was waiting whilst everyone got on anyway, they were likely distracted with whatever it was they were doing.
 
Davec223 said:
This is true, but do you honestly think the driver would have waited once those other passengers had got on.
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how long does it take to use a cash machine? Ask the driver if he'll wave the 20p, he says no, say please, he says no. Thats 1 minute gone, she now has 7 more to use the machine.
 
London Headshots said:
Unbelievable.

Also:

"CCTV footage shows the girl pleading with the bus driver for eight minutes before he eventually turns her away."
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Sounds like you have seen it? But you haven't so your guess is as good as mine.

I don't see why you class me daring to suggest she was being a nightmare unbelievable? There are many women who are vile on a night out in the same way as men are. I in no way condone what happened to her, it is tragic, but if she was there for 8 minutes human nature also says that it would probably go beyond asking nicely,

The other thing is she could have got a taxi home, even if she did not have money then it would have got her home. There are a lot of ifs whys and should haves but a woman was raped and will live with the actions of that sick man for the rest of her life. Arguing about anything else is trivial to the nature of crime committed.

The only unbelievable thing is blaming the bus driver for the acts of a rapist.
 
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joescrivens said:
Oh right, you guys were talking about the cctv like you had seen it, so it's just reports of the cctv footage that you are referring to?

The driver hasn't even been made public. So he/she is saying nothing. The bus company wants this to go away as soon as possible and will not contest anything that has this amount of public outrage.

The newspapers .... well, it's certanly a better story to paint the girl like she was an angel just asking for 20p. The reality could be much different. It could also not be. But often things aren't what they seem.

Nowhere I have read says that she asked a single passenger for 20p. At 3am the clientele getting on the bus were very likely inebriated and doubt that many of them even paid attention to her or what her issue was. It's not like she was making the bus late, it was waiting whilst everyone got on anyway, they were likely distracted with whatever it was they were doing.
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Personally I don't think that I mentioned seeing the CCTV footage ... did I even mention the CCTV footage :shrug: The judge and jury certainly saw the CCTV footage and there are absolutely no reports of her being anything other than vulnerable and petitioning.

Personally I don't believe the girl should have needed to asked for 20p ... end of ... the fact that you do seems to indicate that maybe there isn't the north/south divide that you were suggesting.
 
ding76uk said:
The only unbelievable thing is blaming the bus driver for the acts of a rapist.
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But nobody is doing that, you are twisting responses to suit your misguided argument.
 
joescrivens said:
How does a passenger know that she needs 20p if they aren't asked?
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You don't think that the situation would have been obvious to at least 50% of the passengers? ... 24%? ... 10%? ... 1?
 
ding76uk said:
Sounds like you have seen it? But you haven't so your guess is as good as mine.

I don't see why you class me daring to suggest she was being a nightmare unbelievable? There are many women who are vile on a night out in the same way as men are. I in no way condone what happened to her, it is tragic, but if she was there for 8 minutes human nature also says that it would probably go beyond asking nicely,

The other thing is she could have got a taxi home, even if she did not have money then it would have got her home. There are a lot of ifs whys and should haves but a woman was raped and will live with the actions of that sick man for the rest of her life. Arguing about anything else is trivial to the nature of crime committed.

The only unbelievable thing is blaming the bus driver for the acts of a rapist.
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No, because I'm not guessing, I'm surmising based on available facts. You are guessing based on very peculiar logic. The fact that evidence doesn't exist for something doesn't suddenly make it a credible possibility. There's no evidence discredit the theory that on the way home that she didn't suddenly become incredibly aroused, begged the guy to have sex with her, before willingly reporting him for rape because it was her sexual fantasy to have someone arrested for the worst of crimes. Because there's no evidence that that was the case, we don't even consider it.

If there's no evidence to suggest something, then one is forced to discard it, because otherwise you have an infinite number of possibilities, which creates an impossible equation.

Besides, the fact that neither the driver nor the bus company have spoken about her manner would suggest that she definitely didn't become aggressive. And even if she did, so what? I'd probably get aggressive if it was 3am, I was 15 miles from home, and the bus driver wouldn't let me off 20p.
 
joescrivens said:
Oh right, you guys were talking about the cctv like you had seen it, so it's just reports of the cctv footage that you are referring to?

The driver hasn't even been made public. So he/she is saying nothing. The bus company wants this to go away as soon as possible and will not contest anything that has this amount of public outrage.

The newspapers .... well, it's certanly a better story to paint the girl like she was an angel just asking for 20p. The reality could be much different. It could also not be. But often things aren't what they seem.

Nowhere I have read says that she asked a single passenger for 20p. At 3am the clientele getting on the bus were very likely inebriated and doubt that many of them even paid attention to her or what her issue was. It's not like she was making the bus late, it was waiting whilst everyone got on anyway, they were likely distracted with whatever it was they were doing.
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Never implied anything of the sort. I actually included the quote so that you would know my source.

It doesn't matter how the girl was reacting. If she become aggressive as a result of being turned away for 20p, once can sympathise.
 
gramps said:
But nobody is doing that, you are twisting responses to suit your misguided argument.
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Why is my point of view misguided because it differs from yours

The Greek said:
Hope the bus driver can sleep at night.
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That to me is accusing the driver of having something to feel guilty about. Bottom line he was doing his job. Easy for the company to say he should have let her on etc. In the midst of a PR disaster they would hardly say we tell our drivers to not let people on unless they have full fare, he did good, as the public would hang them. As for the driver if he had possibly done this before and got a warning for being under and letting people on without paying, then he would obviously not do it in fear of losing his job.

There are way too many variables for anyone to make judgement on except the final tragic outcome.

Another sad fact is women and men are raped every day in this country yet the only reason one makes news is because there is a spin to be put on to lay blair at someone other than the rapist. If she had got on the bus and the guy raped someone else then we would not even be discussing it.
 
gramps said:
You don't think that the situation would have been obvious to at least 50% of the passengers? ... 24%? ... 10%? ... 1?
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Well I wasn't there so I can't say, you don't know how many people were on the bus, and how many of them were drunk. Is entirely plausible that they didn't pick up on what was happening. More plausible than nobody offering her 20p.
 
ding76uk said:
Why is my point of view misguided because it differs from yours.
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It's not because it differs from mine, it's because it differs from the known facts ... you are making up alternative scenarios that don't exist and presenting them as facts for the case ... that's why your point of view is misguided.
 
joescrivens said:
Well I wasn't there so I can't say, you don't know how many people were on the bus, and how many of them were drunk. Is entirely plausible that they didn't pick up on what was happening. More plausible than nobody offering her 20p.
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Sorry I completely disagree IMO your view is totally implausible ... but you are free to hold it and present it.
 
ding76uk said:
Why is my point of view misguided because it differs from yours
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Well, you are really. You're making a relatively logical jump, but it's a jump nonetheless.

Nobody has suggested it's the bus drivers fault, but many have rightly pointed out that actions have consequences, and this is an example of one such action greatly increasing the odds of such an occurrence happening.

It's not the bus drivers fault, but it does suggest the bus driver would prefer to leave a girl stranded, miles from home, at 3am, rather than let her off 20p. Which paints the driver as, at least, a reprehensible, lowlife human being.
 
gramps said:
Sorry I completely disagree IMO your view is totally implausible ... but you are free to hold it and present it.
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Then you have less faith in the human race than me. Maybe that's the north south divide rearing it's head again? :shrug:
 
joescrivens said:
Then you have less faith in the human race than me. Maybe that's the north south divide rearing it's head again? :shrug:
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Or reality? - Sorry but I can't believe that you really believe what you are saying ... come on, you just like to be controversial don't you.
 
joescrivens said:
Then you have less faith in the human race than me. Maybe that's the north south divide rearing it's head again? :shrug:
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I think you're right. In London, you'd never expect that kind of charity from a stranger. It exists, sure, but it exists in the sense that it would be a story you'd tell for at least a month after if it happened to you.

Like I said in the beginning of the thread: My girlfriend got on the bus, ****ing with rain, early in the morning, eight months pregnant. Bus driver wouldn't hear of letting her on without the exact change. This is Kensington high Street, so obviously the bus was completely packed. She was crying at the front of the bus, knowing she had to walk a mil in the rain to her work, and not a single person stepped up to help her.

I think south of the Watford Gap, people just become complete *******s.
 
joescrivens said:
how long does it take to use a cash machine? Ask the driver if he'll wave the 20p, he says no, say please, he says no. Thats 1 minute gone, she now has 7 more to use the machine.
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How did she know the had 7 more minutes?

Answer: we don't know because we are not in possession of all the facts.

Maybe she asked if he would wait while she went to get cash and he also said no? What should she do then? Risk the bus river leaving or try and plead some more?
 
so is Nottingham in the North or the South? I always class it as the north (I'm from Newcastle - the 'real' north).

Could it have been, perhaps, a class issue?

I used a bus in Oxford and several buses drove straight past me at the terminus stop (I didn't know which bus I needed so I didn't have my hand out - but I was at the stop looking hopeful) one driver stopped and was rude and unhelpful so I tried the next bus where the driver kind of helped but was very grumpy. In the city centre he did nothing but moan about the 'rich' students. Could that be why no-one helped her? Because (assuming here) she had a posh voice? sadly class is still very much an issue in this country :(
 
sturisoma said:
so is Nottingham in the North or the South? I always class it as the north
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Nottingham is in the North? Just how far down the UK do you have to go before it becomes the South?
 
gramps said:
Or reality? - Sorry but I can't believe that you really believe what you are saying ... come on, you just like to be controversial don't you.
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I think you are being more controversial than me. You're saying that passenger after passenger walked past her knowing that she was 20p short of her fare but ignored it. I find that impossible to believe, it just doesn't add up.
 
gramps said:
It's not because it differs from mine, it's because it differs from the known facts ... you are making up alternative scenarios that don't exist and presenting them as facts for the case ... that's why your point of view is misguided.
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Can you point me to where these facts are? As far as I can find it is all newspaper stories, which are not exactly known for a non biased point of view are they?
 


Seems pretty obvious that this one's going to start heading the same way as a lot of other threads lately.

For anyone who hasn't seen it, I suggest having a read here and taking a minute to think about what they're posting before hitting the "submit" button.
No second warnings in this thread.
 
SarahLee said:


Seems pretty obvious that this one's going to start heading the same way as a lot of other threads lately.

For anyone who hasn't seen it, I suggest having a read here and taking a minute to think about what they're posting before hitting the "submit" button.
No second warnings in this thread.
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I am surprised that with in mind that such a blatantly racist comment is allowed to stay on this thread.

u8myufo said:
I was approached by an immigrant asking for 1p because he was short of his plane fare back home, I gave him a £1 and said take another 99 back with you.
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ding76uk said:
I am surprised that with in mind that such a blatantly racist comment is allowed to stay on this thread.
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As far as I can see, that was addressed by another mod earlier and everybody was asked to move on and get back on topic.

This is now feeling extremely close to a second (or possibly third) warning - if there's an issue with an earlier post or moderating decision RTM it. This thread isn't the place for it.
 
Back on the OP - If i'd been behind her in the queue i'd probably have given her 20p , if only to get the queue and bus moving.

However that said it does seem like the bus driver is being made a scapegoat for what happened later... would he have been disciplined had she got home safe and sound and then complained ? or would no one have given a toss ?

as various people have said everyone involved could have played their cards differently

the bus driver could have let her travel

she could have made sure she had her fare... or travelled as far as 4.80 would take her

another passenger could have lent her the money

and the rapist could have not been such a **** and controlled his baser urges

however imo only the last can realy be said to be a sad indictment of society today... if young girls were safe on the streets it wouldnt matter whether bus drivers were compassionate or not
 
SarahLee said:


Seems pretty obvious that this one's going to start heading the same way as a lot of other threads lately.
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Come on SarahLee, this is nothing like some of the other threads, there is discussion here amongst people with different views, nobody has been offensive or rude and as far as I can see and just one case of righteous indignation.
Just because everybody doesn't share the same view doesn't mean they have to be threatened with a stick.
 
ding76uk said:
Can you point me to where these facts are? As far as I can find it is all newspaper stories, which are not exactly known for a non biased point of view are they?
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I could say the same, where are your facts for the alternative view that you present? There are no such facts to support your view, on the other hand the court reports are there for those 'in the know' to dispute if they misrepresent the facts and no such authoritative dispute has been forthcoming.
 
gramps said:
Come on SarahLee, this is nothing like some of the other threads, there is discussion here amongst people with different views, nobody has been offensive or rude and as far as I can see and just one case of righteous indignation.
Just because everybody doesn't share the same view doesn't mean they have to be threatened with a stick.
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:thumbs: Wouldn't life be dull if we were all the same? Absolutely nothing wrong with different opinions - and IMO healthy debate is actually good for the forum as long as it stays civil.

I've seen enough of these sort of threads on here and other forums though, to know when things are at that turning point of getting personal. I'd far prefer people to take a step away now and just think before they post, rather than wait for it to get to the point where we have to think about closing threads / giving people some time out.
 
I find it very odd the driver did completely ignore the training and not let her on for the sake of 20p. Makes me wonder whether there was some previous animosity between them.

Nottingham is a rough place. Mansfield isn't much better. The last bus home isn't likely to be full of the most capable people at that hour either. The passengers could have assumed her and him were just chatting potentially which is why they didn't step in?
 
gramps said:
I could say the same, where are your facts for the alternative view that you present? There are no such facts to support your view, on the other hand the court reports are there for those 'in the know' to dispute if they misrepresent the facts and no such authoritative dispute has been forthcoming.
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But that is the point I am making. We are both arguing different sides of the same coin. The facts have not been released and the only stories are in the press which are obviously going to paint a picture designed to promote outrage amongst the readership so a balanced argument is low on their list of priorities.

The only people who will truly know what went on within that bus conversation are the driver and the girl. Truth be told he may have been a jobs worth, she could have been verbally abusive. Passers by should have helped with 20p, but may have seen an argumentative young girl being an arse, or they may have been all complete ignorant idiots. We will never know.
 
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