20p - would you have?

What many here seem to be missing is that she didn't hold the bus up for 8 minutes, she stood remonstrating with the driver for all that time whilst other passengers continued to board.

Surely in those 8 minutes she could have done what she said she wanted to and used the atm that was, according to the media reports, just across from the bus stop?
 
Are there any statistics on the proportion of women attacked after walking about alone at night compared to other times of day? Without knowing the actual risks then it is hard to say whether it would have been an expected consequence of not letting her on the bus. There's no way I'd be out at that hour on my own. I'd assume it was a 90% risk of something happening like being mugged at a minimum. The actual risk may be far lower than that.

If you were facing the prospect of walking home in the dark at 3am on your own for the sake of 20p I'd imagine quite a lot of normally quiet people would kick off.
 
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None of it makes any sense to me, the bus leaves without her £4.80 loss of profit, leaves with her £4.80 profit why not just let her on if it's just about to leave

I think it's more of a reflection of the youth of today than a reflection of the general population that nobody helped her out

It's a guess but I assume most of the 3am passengers were under 30, some of the McDonald's generation seem to have been born without compassion
 
srichards said:
Are there any statistics on the proportion of women attacked after walking about alone at night compared to other times of day? Without knowing the actual risks then it is hard to say whether it would have been an expected consequence of not letting her on the bus. There's no way I'd be out at that hour on my own. I'd assume it was a 90% risk of something happening like being mugged at a minimum. The actual risk may be far lower than that.

If you were facing the prospect of walking home in the dark at 3am on your own for the sake of 20p I'd imagine quite a lot of normally quiet people would kick off.
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I think the risk of being attacked when out late is a lot lower than most people think.

That's why stories like this make the news as they are still quite rare. If it was a common occurrence then it would simply not make the news, apart perhaps from the local rag.
 
Surely the time is irrelevant. The real question is: Does being on a bus significantly decrease the risk of you being raped at 3am? If the answer is yes, or even maybe-let her on the bus.
 
wack61 said:
I think it's more of a reflection of the youth of today than a reflection of the general population that nobody helped her out

It's a guess but I assume most of the 3am passengers were under 30, some of the McDonald's generation seem to have been born without compassion
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I'm not sure it is just a "youth of today" problem ......I have both here and in the UK known and seen selfishness, arrogance and a general disregard to other people from EVERY age group.....pretty much similar numbers from each generations.

It is too easy for the youth of today to be blamed for the areas of modern life that we dislike but in all fairness they were born into a society and brought up by us, their elders!!

Are the youth then not a reflection of what we have offered them and taught them as a society or do we simply deny any responsibilty?
 
Just a question: Does hindsight affect your decision as to whether or not you would have given her money?

If she hadn't have become a rape victim, or even if she was trying to save money so she could afford more booze. To what extent or what reasoning goes into your decision ? How much hinges on circumstance?

(Try to be short here)
A homeless guy asked me for 70p for a bus one night, I obliged giving him the money it came with a good story too. (Didn't look homeless)
Then I heard him saying the exact same thing to another person waiting for a bus. I told the guy that I'd just fallen for that and that he was begging.
The chaps response was "ah well so what, if it ends up in his arm later on at least he's happy; I'm not going to miss it"

It felt strange he had such a black and white answer to it, it was as if it didn't matter what he wanted the money for. Personally I would have to think on certain circumstances before handing money over - Not the amount, but the actual reason they're asking.
 
at that time of night the driver should have just let her ride the bus
 
Not read through the replies here, but heard the story on The Jeremy Vine Radio 2 program the other day. So sad...do I blame the driver or other passengers? Yes and no. Sadly, the society we live in seems not to give a sheet, or you're a weirdo when you offer to help.

I've been in a local corner shop, the local Co-OP. and even one or two of the big supermarkets where the person in front is caught short with a few bob or pence, and offered and paid the balance. Often it's a child or young mother, and whilst they show some gratitude, I always feel others around me look at me suspicously, especially the till person in the supermarkets...but the experience of helping out a fellow human-being isn't always a happy one.
 
I've not read this entire thread, but I did catch the Radio 2 JV show. Personally I think the driver's action is despicable, but he's not entirely at fault - the bus company should also shoulder some of the blame. Neither could be blamed for the actual rape of course but failing to do the decent thing is what lead to the crime. If the driver had done what is right and made sure a vulnerable young lady wasn't left stranded miles from home late at night then it would not have happened.

The one thing I was left thinking though is that this would not have happened in years gone by, we as a society seem to have lost the ability to care and sympathise with our fellows. There is simply no good reason why the girl could not get on the bus for the sake of 20p. Someone could have lent her it, the bus driver could have said "get on, pay us later" or whatever.

My other half had an incident when we were expecting our little one. She was 7 months gone and on her way home from work. She'd forgotten to get cash and had grabbed the penny jar. There she was in the pouring rain, refused entry because the driver would not accept a quids worth of pennies. Luckily a passenger had a shop and gladly changed it for her. Another time the bus happened to be busy and the ONLY person to offer her a seat was another pregnant lady.

It's a long while since I used buses. The other thing that surprised me was the cost - £5.00?!! I seem to recall the highest fares being no more than about £1.20 and for that you could travel right across West Yorkshire. What the heck?
 
chuck said:
Just a question: Does hindsight affect your decision as to whether or not you would have given her money?

If she hadn't have become a rape victim, or even if she was trying to save money so she could afford more booze. To what extent or what reasoning goes into your decision ? How much hinges on circumstance?
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For me, no ... the fact that she was a young woman ... 3am ... last bus home would be all that was needed.

chuck said:
(Try to be short here)
A homeless guy asked me for 70p for a bus one night, I obliged giving him the money it came with a good story too. (Didn't look homeless)
Then I heard him saying the exact same thing to another person waiting for a bus. I told the guy that I'd just fallen for that and that he was begging.
The chaps response was "ah well so what, if it ends up in his arm later on at least he's happy; I'm not going to miss it"

It felt strange he had such a black and white answer to it, it was as if it didn't matter what he wanted the money for. Personally I would have to think on certain circumstances before handing money over - Not the amount, but the actual reason they're asking.
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If I had been you I would likely have done the same but if I realised what was being done I wouldn't give. I rarely if ever give to beggars but I often 'give' to 'Big Issue' sellers.
 
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Although I do not condole what the driver did, he is no way responsible for what a monster did to her.
Yes, in this day in age, 20p short of anything will get the operator questioned for theft even if it was a genuine mistake.

This is a sad combination of events. I just hope she recovers and can enjoy her life as much as possible.
 
I grew up in Newcastle which is a very safe city. I regularly walked 4 miles home on my own at 3am on a Saturday night. If I knew I needed to get a bus or taxi (usually due to distance) I would always make sure I had the fare tucked away where I wouldn't accidently spend it.

I always remember walking home over the Redheugh bridge one dark wet winter night with my mam and sisters (age about 7) when a bus driver stopped and made us get on the bus, then he dropped us off at the other side of the bridge. my mam said he did it in case the skin heads threw us off the bridge. This was early 70s and I have never worked out if that was the real reason.
 
chuck said:
Just a question: Does hindsight affect your decision as to whether or not you would have given her money?
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nope, I'm always handing over money, I have plenty and I am not materialistic at all (a ragged-trousered philanthropist ha ha)

20p, I mean come on??

The only time I refuse to give money is when it's kids asking for booze/fag money (yep, they are brazen)

I think people are sometimes worried about being seen as a 'soft touch'
 
u8myufo said:
I was approached by an immigrant asking for 1p because he was short of his plane fare back home, I gave him a £1 and said take another 99 back with you.
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:( :( :( very disappointed with this comment
 
No sense of humour.... eh?
 
Splog said:
No sense of humour.... eh?
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If you're relating to this comment:

Originally Posted by u8myufo

"I was approached by an immigrant asking for 1p because he was short of his plane fare back home, I gave him a £1 and said take another 99 back with you."

then that is not humour , it is a blatent lack of acceptance of immigrants..........also very much off topic!
 
I would have given 20p. The bus drivers around here are a little far right and don't like some policies, no idea if its bus company, local or government but are often told that we don't have to pay for my son 5yrs (5yrs being when fairs have to be paid around here) as they are sick of letting foreigners and ethnic minorities on for free. Sure they'd have let her on.
 
You me or the bus driver, who would agree with their Mother, wife or daughter being thrown off the bus at 3am becouse they were 20p short?

No one!! Hope the bus driver can sleep at night.
 
If I was on the bus yes I would if given 20p.

If I was the driver yes I would of let her on for £4.80.
 
If she was behaving rationally do you not think someone would have helped her for 20p? Despite what some may think the majority of people are decent human beings. I have given people a quid for a bus fair and have also told people to **** off due to their attitude.

Easy to put her as an angel, yeah it as horrible and nobody deserves it, but things are never black and white.
 
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I don't go with this theory that the community is getting less compasionate etc.

A few years ago I was driving to wales for a weekend and my engine overheated. I pulled over 200 miles from home and my oli cap had come off. It was a saturday in chester and I went to a renault dealership to get a new oil cap only they didn't have one in stock, and neither did any withn a 50 mile radius. The mechanic I spoke to brought out 5 oil caps to try and fit them all and none did.

He could have just said, tough luck, on your way. Instead it turned out he had the exact same clio year and model as me. He went and took the oil cap from his car and gave it to me for free. He said he'd just drive the his van around over the weekend till they got one in stock. I was so grateful I gave him a case of ale I had in my car.

I see stuff like this happening all the time.
 
Someone at 3am about to be kicked off their only way home for 20p isn't likely to be acting rationally. Even the most sanguine person would probably make a scene. That shouldn't be held against them under such circumstances.
 
ding76uk said:
If she was behaving rationally do you not think someone would have helped her for 20p?

Easy to put her as an angel, yeah it as horrible and nobody deserves it, but things are never black and white.
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Easy to say but there is no evidence of this being the case ... even if it was it is still appalling that they let this (the missing of the last bus home) happen.


joescrivens said:
I don't go with this theory that the community is getting less compasionate etc.

A few years ago I was driving to wales for a weekend and my engine overheated. I pulled over 200 miles from home and my oli cap had come off. It was a saturday in chester and I went to a renault dealership to get a new oil cap only they didn't have one in stock, and neither did any withn a 50 mile radius. The mechanic I spoke to brought out 5 oil caps to try and fit them all and none did.

He could have just said, tough luck, on your way. Instead it turned out he had the exact same clio year and model as me. He went and took the oil cap from his car and gave it to me for free. He said he'd just drive the his van around over the weekend till they got one in stock. I was so grateful I gave him a case of ale I had in my car.

I see stuff like this happening all the time.
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No question that there are still some good people about but there is also no question that true community spirit is virtually a thing of the past, many neighbours don't even speak to/know one another, people walk past people in trouble regularly, people are more rude than they were and communities have become more fragmented etc. May not be so bad in some small communities but in larger towns and cities it is certainly the case.
 
gramps said:
Easy to say but there is no evidence of this being the case ... even if it was it is still appalling that they let this (the missing of the last bus home) happen.
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There is no evidence of her not doing either.

gramps said:
No question that there are still some good people about but there is also no question that true community spirit is virtually a thing of the past, many neighbours don't even speak to/know one another, people walk past people in trouble regularly, people are more rude than they were and communities have become more fragmented etc. May not be so bad in some small communities but in larger towns and cities it is certainly the case.
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You seem to have the point of view that this generation are all bad, no one cares etc. It is simply not that case. Easy to say how bad things are. Good, caring compassionate things happen on a day to day basis, but we never see them as they simply don't sell papers.

Those of you saying the driver should feel guilty. What if he accepted her fair 20p short and she made the journey only to be attacked the other end of the trip. Would he be guilty then?
 
gramps said:
No question that there are still some good people about but there is also no question that true community spirit is virtually a thing of the past, many neighbours don't even speak to/know one another, people walk past people in trouble regularly, people are more rude than they were and communities have become more fragmented etc. May not be so bad in some small communities but in larger towns and cities it is certainly the case.
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Out of interest, where do you live? Which city/town?
 
I've done it before, and I'll do it again. I would have not just paid the 20p for her, but I would have paid the full fare so that she would have at least had some money should she have needed it.

This is the kind of thing that reinforces my wish to stay here, and not return to the UK on any permanent basis. There doesn't seem to be any tolerance, benefit of the doubt, or good old common sense any more. People are automatically assumed to be dishonest unless they can prove otherwise.

Had this poor girl been in Switzerland she would have got home. Things are run on trust here, and you can board trains buses and trams even if you don't have a ticket or the money to pay for it, because it's assumed that you do have a ticket. If you're caught then you'll have to pay a fine and the cost of your journey (you get a bill in the post), but you'll be allowed to complete your journey.

I use the trams buses and regional trains everyday. I might get asked to show my ticket maybe 3 or 4 times a year. Naturally you'd think that everybody would trying it on wouldn't you, but in reality that's not the case. It costs way more to run the ticket inspections than the money that's got back through fines.

I'll stop now before I ramble too far off topic.
 
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but where do you draw the line... 50p, £1.... This may sound harsh but when I go out I always make sure I have enough money on me to get home. I always put spare cash in separate pocket for bus/taxi.

Remember that if the drivers money doesnt add up he will face the sack for theft! The real criminal is the rapist who will probably be free in a few years. The rest is circumstance...
 
ding76uk said:
There is no evidence of her not doing either.
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So it's guilty until proved otherwise then :thinking:


ding76uk said:
You seem to have the point of view that this generation are all bad, no one cares etc. It is simply not that case. Easy to say how bad things are. Good, caring compassionate things happen on a day to day basis, but we never see them as they simply don't sell papers.

Those of you saying the driver should feel guilty. What if he accepted her fair 20p short and she made the journey only to be attacked the other end of the trip. Would he be guilty then?
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I didn't mention any specific generation, I don't believe it is a 'generation' thing, I think it is a conditioning of people in general - you get obnoxious rude youngsters and you get obnoxious rude elderly people ... why you even get Internet forums where the mods have to isssue a declaration against uncivil conduct!
I don't dispute that good caring things still happen what I do see is that society in general is not as caring, considerate and civil as it used to be.

The driver is not 'guilty', the rapist is guilty, but I do believe that the driver's action was wrong and ill-advised.


joescrivens said:
Out of interest, where do you live? Which city/town?
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I don't think that is particularly relevant because it is experienced is all different large towns and cities up and down the country. I am not, of course, saying that everyone is anti-social, what I am saying is that the community spirit of years past has been lost. Younger people will of course not see that because they have not experienced the change but most older people will have seen the difference and been affected by it.
 
gramps said:
I don't think that is particularly relevant because it is experienced is all different large towns and cities up and down the country. I am not, of course, saying that everyone is anti-social, what I am saying is that the community spirit of years past has been lost. Younger people will of course not see that because they have not experienced the change but most older people will have seen the difference and been affected by it.
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I think it is quite relevant as I see much more friendliness, community and general god human nature in the north of england compared to the south. I grew up in the south and now live in the north and I think a lot of what you are describing is actually more prevalent in the south of england, so I wondered if thats where you lived.
 
cambsno said:
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but where do you draw the line... 50p, £1.... This may sound harsh but when I go out I always make sure I have enough money on me to get home. I always put spare cash in separate pocket for bus/taxi.

Remember that if the drivers money doesnt add up he will face the sack for theft! ...
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Not according to the bus company.
 
joescrivens said:
I think it is quite relevant as I see much more friendliness, community and general god human nature in the north of england compared to the south. I grew up in the south and now live in the north and I think a lot of what you are describing is actually more prevalent in the south of england, so I wondered if thats where you lived.
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I can't argue with that, I do live in the south and you may well be right in that it is more prevalent here, however some of the larger cities in the north do still give indications of the change.
 
joescrivens said:
where is this footage? I'd like to see it.

Also, there's no sound on cctv is there? How do we know what she is saying?
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Most people would be able to discern someone's manner from their body language. We're hard-wired to recognise it, after all.
 
Would I have offered the extra fare if I was aware a woman was having a problem? Yes. Absolutely.

Regardless of the ****takers out there who are just begging, if I am on a night bus and someone is struggling, I would most definitely help out. Those bus services are quite often the ONLY means someone has of getting home because they link the outlying areas to the city centre. Yes, it's easy to say she should have made sure she had her full fare but stuff doesn't always go according to plan.

So yes, I would have given the money. The driver could have let her off the fare but she offered to go to the cash machine. This machine is very close to the bus stop, and ahead of the bus, so the driver could have waited the two minutes and seen she was actually getting cash.

Very sad really.
 
RichardtheSane said:
Would I have offered the extra fare if I was aware a woman was having a problem? Yes. Absolutely.

Regardless of the ****takers out there who are just begging, if I am on a night bus and someone is struggling, I would most definitely help out. Those bus services are quite often the ONLY means someone has of getting home because they link the outlying areas to the city centre. Yes, it's easy to say she should have made sure she had her full fare but stuff doesn't always go according to plan.

So yes, I would have given the money. The driver could have let her off the fare but she offered to go to the cash machine. This machine is very close to the bus stop, and ahead of the bus, so the driver could have waited the two minutes and seen she was actually getting cash.

Very sad really.
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But... multiply those 2 minutes for people to get cash out and all of a sudden buses are delayed by 30 mins and everyone is moaning!!

It is great to be wise after the event.
 
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