20p - would you have?

[POAH]

I beg to differ, it's only the truth if you opt out of civilised society.
The rapist/attacker is certainly responsible for the crime but the woman wouldn't have been raped if the 30-odd others hadn't been so unfeeling as to allow her to be put in that position.

a series of unfortunate events but the only person to blame is the rapist. we don't even know if the girl in question actually asked for 20p.

 

[gramps]

we don't even know if the girl in question actually asked for 20p.

You don't see that as a problem ... that she would even need to ask? ... that not one of the passengers offered to give/loan her 20p without needing to be asked? ... that it was worth putting her off the last bus for 20p?
This was at 3am on the last bus home ... if you really don't feel that shows a problem with those involved, I don't know what else to say to you.

 

[Asha]

This was at 3am on the last bus home ... if you really don't feel that shows a problem with those involved, I don't know what else to say to you.

FWIW I see it as very much a problem with those involved ....according to form the young lady was pleading with the bus driver for EIGHT minutes. I wonder had she been given a chance to obtain money from the cash machine, would that then have been refused on the basis of having no change!

From the bus drivers side, wether or not it is strict company policy to decline passengers in these situations, this goes way way beyond the point of jobsworth.....that aside, if this is a sign of what the UK popultion has become in recent years .....heartless and a self centered ( I'm ok jack f you attitude)....then I am ashamed to be British!

 

[POAH]

You don't see that as a problem ... that she would even need to ask? ... that not one of the passengers offered to give/loan her 20p without needing to be asked? ... that it was worth putting her off the last bus for 20p?
This was at 3am on the last bus home ... if you really don't feel that shows a problem with those involved, I don't know what else to say to you.

People have the right to offer but they also have the right not to offer - we cannot blame people for that. you also got to remember this was a late night bus home full of drunk young people not probably paying attention to the front of the bus.

 

[Davec223]

Where does it say that she was drunk, that does not seem to be an issue here at all.

I have not said she was drink, I said if the person is drunk.

 

[snoop69]

As an ex bus driver, we are taught never to leave people (especially kids on the way home from school) at a bus stop if they do not have the correct fare for these very reasons.

There are forms they can fill in & make a payment at a later date.

Sad news

 

[gramps]

you also got to remember this was a late night bus home full of drunk young people not probably paying attention to the front of the bus.

Where does it say that it was a bus load of 'drunk young people'?

I have not said she was drink, I said if the person is drunk.

Sorry I thought you were suggesting she was drunk, I don't think drunkenness featured anywhere in this event ... other than the rapist who had been taking cocaine and alcohol.

 

[snooker147]

as bus driver myself i would without doubt let her on think it is sad that driver refused to help would rather stand in front of tribunal than have that on my consience

 

[gramps]

As an ex bus driver, we are taught never to leave people (especially kids on the way home from school) at a bus stop if they do not have the correct fare for these very reasons.

There are forms they can fill in & make a payment at a later date.

Sad news

as bus driver myself i would without doubt let her on think it is sad that driver refused to help would rather stand in front of tribunal than have that on my consience

Glad to hear this.

 

[wibbly]

if this is a sign of what the UK popultion has become in recent years .....heartless and a self centered ( I'm ok jack f you attitude)....then I am ashamed to be British!

Welcome to the UK, 2012 stylee.... :| :thumbsdown:

 

[Lynton]

Would have given her the whole fare.... had she needed it.

Shocking lack of judgement by the bus driver and bus co.

however can also suggest maybe she should have tucked £5 somewhere for the fare...

 

[49Clicks]

Unfortuanetly something too many people lack!

+1

 

[cyclamens]

So if you're female you're not allowed out after dark on the off chance you get attacked, which is always your fault because you were out on your own? People should be allowed to walk about at any hour free from being attacked!

You can mitigate to a point but it seems rather unfair to make people prisoners due to the behaviour of a minority. Perhaps women should be allowed to carry weapons to deal with these scumbags instead? Much better to deter them so everyone else can walk about safely rather than asking a section of the population to stay home because another section can't control themselves.

Agreed - tantamount to stating the old one - shouldn't dress like that either.

There are many valid points in this thread - some I agree with others I don't. Suffice to say a woman had to endure an unimaginable, degrading and undoubtedly terrifying ordeal....... for 20 ****ing pence. Dosen't matter who's at fault this should not be allowed to happen.

The crime has been committed - the punishment should fit the crime when the scumbag is bought to account.

But undoubtedly there will be some mamby pamby liberal standing up for his rights. I'd like to volunteer to give them to him

 

[Bristolian]

This was being discussed on the radio today and without a doubt the only person to blame for the horrific assault and injuries this girl sustained is the person that did it to her. Personally, I hope they lock him up and throw away the key.

Having said that, the driver and passengers on the bus must accept some responsibility for the fact she was attacked - they chose not to offer her assistance and therefore put her into danger (whether knowingly or not). I'm sure that, if they have any conscience at all, they will regret their lack of action for a long time.

During the radio debate a traffic manager from another bus company called in and he was adamant that every bus company he had worked for had a system whereby the driver could use his/her discression in cases like this. They simply have to take the passenger's details and the company could then persue the outstanding payment, if they chose to do so. I know this works here in Bristol (First Bus) as I've done it myself when I lost my wallet in town one night.

 

[SuperzShields]

Surely she could of just gone as far as she could on £4.80 when she lost the argument and then walked the rest of the way? The buses around where I live it's an extra 15p to a stop around the corner so it couldn't have been far for her to walk.

I'm not in anyway saying that the driver shouldn't have let her on or someone shouldn't have helped, but in a situation like that would common sense not tell you to go as far as you can?

 

[Lynton]

Surely she could of just gone as far as she could on £4.80 when she lost the argument and then walked the rest of the way? The buses around where I live it's an extra 15p to a stop around the corner so it couldn't have been far for her to walk.

I'm not in anyway saying that the driver shouldn't have let her on or someone shouldn't have helped, but in a situation like that would common sense not tell you to go as far as you can?

Yes she could, however I maintain the bus driver should be hauled over the coals...... what is 20p?

 

[SuperzShields]

Yes she could, however I maintain the bus driver should be hauled over the coals...... what is 20p?

Yeah I know I completely agree with you but it just seems silly to stay 15miles away from home as apposed to 1 mile

 

[Deleted member 29733]

......Having said that, the driver and passengers on the bus must accept some responsibility for the fact she was attacked - they chose not to offer her assistance and therefore put her into danger (whether knowingly or not). I'm sure that, if they have any conscience at all, they will regret their lack of action for a long time.

And I wonder what their reactions would have been if this had happened to one of their family.

And yes I would have given her the 20p and probably made the driver change a £20 note for it.

 

[malo50]

In response to the original post..of course I would.

 

[edthesock]

The driver should have used his head for more than a hat rack.

 

[new2me]

I don't want to read this story, because i've seen the same characters on late buses asking for the same 20p to get them home night after night after night



you know something


it's not a sad reflection of 'modern' society .... it's the same old shizzle folks!


if someone has been hurt, then I'm deeply sorry, but it's nothing new


people try to take advantage of the innocent public, then someone else of similar low moral standards takes advantage of them.

if a lass really was askng for 20p to get home and was a genuine victim, then I am sorry for her ... but sadly it happens and it's nothing new :|

 

[Flash In The Pan]

As an ex bus driver, we are taught never to leave people (especially kids on the way home from school) at a bus stop if they do not have the correct fare for these very reasons.

There are forms they can fill in & make a payment at a later date.

Sad news

as bus driver myself i would without doubt let her on think it is sad that driver refused to help would rather stand in front of tribunal than have that on my consience

Would have given her the whole fare.... had she needed it.

Shocking lack of judgement by the bus driver and bus co.

According to the Telegraph....

Commercial director Alex Hornby said: "Our drivers are well known for looking after people and there have been many examples of exceptional service by our teams, even including paying their own customers fares out of their own pocket.
"Sadly on this occasion this did not happen and our driver did not follow his training.
"The matter was dealt with through our disciplinary procedure within days of the incident last December."

 

[London Headshots]

I don't want to read this story, because i've seen the same characters on late buses asking for the same 20p to get them home night after night after night



you know something


it's not a sad reflection of 'modern' society .... it's the same old shizzle folks!


if someone has been hurt, then I'm deeply sorry, but it's nothing new


people try to take advantage of the innocent public, then someone else of similar low moral standards takes advantage of them.

if a lass really was askng for 20p to get home and was a genuine victim, then I am sorry for her ... but sadly it happens and it's nothing new :|

This is just.. wow..

 

[chuck]

Haha, this is actually how I met my current girlfriend of 4 1/2 years!

I had crashed my scooter (Someone pulled out, not my fault!) and had to get the train to college, about halfway on my journey I saw her get on and sit down, of course me being 'James Bond' cool at this point only appeared to be looking out the window, when really I was catching her reflections as we went through the tunnels. Any way the ticket guy came and I overheard her saying "Oh sorry I don't have enough, I only have £X.XX" At which point I dived over and politely offered assistance!

I gave her a £1 she said thank you and gave me 55p change (lol) I then sat on the other side of the train nearer too her but couldn't bring myself to say anything, I'm a bit of a nerd the whole red face stutter kind of thing. Luckily she was persistent in her thank you's and eventually after a couple of weeks I saw her again. (I waited at the train station, built up my confidence, and pretended I just arrived when actually 3 hours had passed before she had finished college)

Things are great and it only cost me 45p......

 

[joescrivens]

With respect I believe that is a cop-out ... we all have a moral responsibility to look after one another, more especially the young and/or vulnerable.

But we shouldn't have to be looking out for people because of potential rapists, don't lose sight of the fact that the rapist in this story is the one in the wrong.

 

[joescrivens]

In a heartbeat you would give the girl the 20p she needed for her bus fare home if you were sat on that last bus.

I don't think it's as simple as that. Picture a scene where a girl gets on the bus and doesn't have the fare, but starts yelling and screaming and demanding he let her on, how unfair it is etc etc, then rudely addresses the rest of the bus with arrogance. Would you still give her 20p or would you think she shouldnt be so careless with her plans.

I'm not saying she was like this, only the peopl on the bus would know, but depending on the action to the situation I'm sure lots of people would choose not to help her out.

 

[neil_g]

This is just.. wow..

i can kind of see their point if maybe it wasnt quite put over very well.

for example, if you spend any sort of time around southampton train station there are always people doing the "scuse me have you got a £1, i dont have enough for a ticket" routine. they go from person to person collecting £1's for a large part of the day, some of them are young vulnerable looking girls. do that 50 times a day and whats that, about equivalent of a 23k salary?

i think their point was kinda boy who cried wolf.

 

[gramps]

But we shouldn't have to be looking out for people because of potential rapists, don't lose sight of the fact that the rapist in this story is the one in the wrong.

Nobody's losing sight of the fact that the rapist is in the wrong ... that's not the issue here ... the issue is the lack of help the girl received from the driver and passengers.

I don't think it's as simple as that. Picture a scene where a girl gets on the bus and doesn't have the fare, but starts yelling and screaming and demanding he let her on, how unfair it is etc etc, then rudely addresses the rest of the bus with arrogance. Would you still give her 20p or would you think she shouldnt be so careless with her plans.

I'm not saying she was like this, only the peopl on the bus would know, but depending on the action to the situation I'm sure lots of people would choose not to help her out.

It clearly wasn't like that in this case but even if it was I would expect at least 1 person to donate the 20p to shut him/her up and get the bus (already delayed 8 mins) moving.

 

[u8myufo]

I would have had no problem in throwing 20p her way along with a few words to the driver. The attack on the girl was all down to the usual chain of events in life, imo you cannot hold anyone responsible for that.If someone had given her the 20p or the driver waived it, she may have well got off the bus the other end and got knocked down by a car in a freak accident :shrug:

I was approached by an immigrant asking for 1p because he was short of his plane fare back home, I gave him a £1 and said take another 99 back with you.

 

[joescrivens]

Nobody's losing sight of the fact that the rapist is in the wrong ... that's not the issue here ... the issue is the lack of help the girl received from the driver and passengers.

It does seem like people are losing sight of that. You talk like the people on the bus could have prevented the incident. That's great with hindsight, no-one can know how actions are going to affect events. If someone saw her getting raped and chose not to intervene then, that's very different but take the fact that she got attacked out of the equation and basically we are talking about someone who didn't have the right fare not being allowed on public transport. That happens every day I'm sure.

It clearly wasn't like that in this case but even if it was I would expect at least 1 person to donate the 20p to shut him/her up and get the bus (already delayed 8 mins) moving.

How do you know it wasn't like that? Unless you were on the bus you couldn't know how it was like.

Also, if someone was like that you wouldn't want them on the bus with you. Just look at the video of the lad on the train who didn't have his fare. The train wouldn't move, did someone pay his fare to get the train going? Nope, someone physically removed him from the train to get the train going.

The lad in that video was a total jerk. He could have then been attacked on the way home. But the passengers or the train conductor would have felt little sympathy I'm sure considering his behaviour.

 

[nilagin]

i can kind of see their point if maybe it wasnt quite put over very well.

for example, if you spend any sort of time around southampton train station there are always people doing the "scuse me have you got a £1, i dont have enough for a ticket" routine. they go from person to person collecting £1's for a large part of the day, some of them are young vulnerable looking girls. do that 50 times a day and whats that, about equivalent of a 23k salary?

i think their point was kinda boy who cried wolf.

True enough, but she only needed 20p to pay her fare so if she was scrounging, she had set her sights fairly low. But if you do give them £1, that is all it costs you. I was in a shopping centre years ago and a girl of about 14 asked if I could spare a £1 for he bus fare home. I gave her the £1 willingly, she may have actually wanted it for another reason, I'll never know, she may have been doing as you suggested, but if she was legit, I'm happy I could help and for the sake of 20p I would have done the same for this girl too.

 

[gramps]

we are talking about someone who didn't have the right fare not being allowed on public transport. That happens every day I'm sure.

I'm sure it does, but my point is that at 3am, on the last bus home, for the sake of 20p, that should not happen - evidently from the Telegraph extract posted above, the bus company also agree that it shouldn't happen. I hope no one in your family is ever confronted with such an unempathetic group of people at such a difficult time.

How do you know it wasn't like that? Unless you were on the bus you couldn't know how it was like.

I can only go on the report, the absence of information that it was like that and the subsequent comment of the bus company, all of which indicates that it wasn't like that.

Also, if someone was like that you wouldn't want them on the bus with you. Just look at the video of the lad on the train who didn't have his fare. The train wouldn't move, did someone pay his fare to get the train going? Nope, someone physically removed him from the train to get the train going.

The lad in that video was a total jerk. He could have then been attacked on the way home. But the passengers or the train conductor would have felt little sympathy I'm sure considering his behaviour.

But again, with respect, that is a smokescreen as there is absolutely no indication that it was anything like that, it is an entirely different event and was clearly a very different set of circumstances.

 

[cobwebscavern]

This one of those wonderful threads that no matter what sort of opinion you give, no matter how reasonable or balanced you think you are being and seeing all sides of the story someone will jump down you throat. But I'll give it a go.

No one comes out of the story well sadly. The girl should have made sure she was safe with friends etc. The driver should have relented. The passengers should have chipped in. The rapist is a ****head. The bus company should have more options other then just cash perhaps?

Any answers from all this? No not really....it's just modern life. we would all like to think that we would do something different but we also hear stories of people who stand up to be counted being hurt (or worse).

Here's hoping that the girl can come through this and get on with her life...the driver doesn't get vilified too badly....and everyone else learns not to allow the same thing to happen again.

 

[Ricardodaforce]

I was approached by an immigrant asking for 1p because he was short of his plane fare back home, I gave him a £1 and said take another 99 back with you.

That must be the most controversial comment so far.

 

[gramps]

No one comes out of the story well sadly. The girl should have made sure she was safe with friends etc. The driver should have relented. The passengers should have chipped in. ...... The bus company should have more options other then just cash perhaps?

True! It would be great to think that lessons will be learned, but sadly I doubt that.

Any answers from all this? No not really....it's just modern life.

Maybe therein lies the problem, the impotence of complacency.

 

[joescrivens]

I'm sure it does, but my point is that at 3am, on the last bus home, for the sake of 20p, that should not happen - evidently from the Telegraph extract posted above, the bus company also agree that it shouldn't happen. I hope no one in your family is ever confronted with such an unempathetic group of people at such a difficult time.

to be fair, the bus company are hardly going to go against the visceral reaction to the circumstance are they.

But again, with respect, that is a smokescreen as there is absolutely no indication that it was anything like that, it is an entirely different event and was clearly a very different set of circumstances.

Oh I know its unlikely thats what happened, but that scenario is really in comment to everyone that says they would always give 20p, I'm just saying, you don't know until you are there how the person is actually acting when they need that money.

I still don't think anyone on that bus should feel guilty. They couldn't prevent it, to prevent something you have to know it was going to happen in the first place. In another situation in another time, someone gives her the money, the bus crashes and she is the only one to die in the crash leaving the person wishing they never paid for her in the first place. You can't feel guilty for a turn of events, its very different to seeing an event and not intervening.

 

[gramps]

to be fair, the bus company are hardly going to go against the visceral reaction to the circumstance are they.

They state the driver's actions were contrary to training and that he had been disciplined as a result ... they could have offered a defence to the actions or kept silent. The 'visceral' reaction as you call it probably comes from an innate feeling of right and wrong, something too often suppressed in this modern age.

I still don't think anyone on that bus should feel guilty. They couldn't prevent it, to prevent something you have to know it was going to happen in the first place. In another situation in another time, someone gives her the money, the bus crashes and she is the only one to die in the crash leaving the person wishing they never paid for her in the first place. You can't feel guilty for a turn of events, its very different to seeing an event and not intervening.

To act out of good motive and have it turn out badly through misfortune does not bring guilt, though it may bring regret - however to fail to act and have it turn out badly is entirely different in my book.
If prevention was only carried out where knowledge of a specific event were present there would be no need of RoSPA or any of the other prevention 'societies'.
Prevention also has a general application ... you teach your kids how to cross the road so that they don't have an accident ... you fit a parapet to a roof so that nobody falls from the edge ... you place tyre-walls on motor-racing circuits so that nobody gets injured ... you help an otherwise stranded girl to the tune of 20p so that she gets home safely at night ... no?

 

[joescrivens]

To act out of good motive and have it turn out badly through misfortune does not bring guilt, though it may bring regret - however to fail to act and have it turn out badly is entirely different in my book.
If prevention was only carried out where knowledge of a specific event were present there would be no need of RoSPA or any of the other prevention 'societies'.
Prevention also has a general application ... you teach your kids how to cross the road so that they don't have an accident ... you fit a parapet to a roof so that nobody falls from the edge ... you place tyre-walls on motor-racing circuits so that nobody gets injured ... you help an otherwise stranded girl to the tune of 20p so that she gets home safely at night ... no?

perhaps.

But under that same theory. You make sure you have a way of getting home safely at 3am before you go out. You make sure you have your bus fare if you need it.

:shrug:

The point is, it's not her or anyone else's fault that she got raped but the rapist. Everything else that happened in the lead up is simply a turn of events. The rapist is the one in the wrong. Nobody else.

 

[gramps]

perhaps.

But under that same theory. You make sure you have a way of getting home safely at 3am before you go out. You make sure you have your bus fare if you need it.

:shrug:

The point is, it's not her or anyone else's fault that she got raped but the rapist. Everything else that happened in the lead up is simply a turn of events. The rapist is the one in the wrong. Nobody else.

Absolutely agree that the rapist is the one at fault here.
Absolutely agree that she should have made sure she had the extra 20p.
Absolutely disagree that the rest is just a 'turn of events', in my book it was preventable by simple human kindness - but it doesn't look like we're going to agree on that

 

[joescrivens]

Absolutely agree that the rapist is the one at fault here.
Absolutely agree that she should have made sure she had the extra 20p.
Absolutely disagree that the rest is just a 'turn of events', in my book it was preventable by simple human kindness - but it doesn't look like we're going to agree on that

Well, I agree that it could have not happened by the actions of others, but that's true of pretty much every single thing that happens in the world, but I just don't agree that anyone else is to blame for it.

If it had been me I would have given her 20p so long as she wasn't someone like I described above, someone genuinely just needing 20p and really helpless about it. But I wouldn't have done so in order to stop her being raped, there's no way I could have known that, i would have done it because it sucks to only be 20p short of a ride home, but if I didn't do it I couldn't be held responsible for the events that transpired afterwards.