1D Shutter Life - Failure at 20k reasonable?

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1DMARKII

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Murray
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Hello peeps,

As some of you may be aware I recently had a 1D IIN shutter die at 20k actuations since new.

Being a member of CPS I received my quote today:

"Replace shutter unit.Set up and test. = £188"

I am curious if a 1D series failing at 20k is acceptable or am I right to feel a little bit disheartened to have this happen and pay £188?

Maybe I am being unrealistic? :shrug:

Must admit it does make me wonder whether it is worth buying all this expensive gear only for it to fail so soon.

Cheers,

Murray :)
 
Given that it's rated to 200k, I would be quite annoyed if it failed any anything under about 100-150k.
 
Isn't the 1DMK3 rated at 300K shutter actuations? It isn't that long ago that the Canon F1 was the mechanical 'built like a tank' flagship of the Canon range - fully mechanical, and the shutter was rated at just 100k actuations.

Manufactures are well aware that digital shooters shoot a lot more exposures than film users ever did, and there's little doubt the pressure is on them to increase life expectancy of the focal plane shutters. These cameras are now capable of 8-10 exposures per second. Think what happens every time you press that shutter button...

The aperture closes to it's preset size, the mirror goes up-shutter opens and closes- mirror comes down - aperture opens up again. The problem with FP shutters is they're right on top of the sensor, so the only way they can uncover the sensor is to be the same size as the sensor. They're big mechanisms and subjected to enormous stresses, particularly on continuous shooting.

I don't ever remember shutter life being quoted for any of the leaf type shutters in other cameras they just seem to go on forever. and need the odd adjustment or spring replacing at most.

Whether manufacturers can routinely achieve the expected shutter lives they're quoting with FP shutters, I'd have to have my doubts.
 
If I had a camera that was supposed to be good for 200,000 shutter activations, and it went belly up after 20,000, :eek: I'd be very peed off. :(

I'd feel even worse if they wanted to charge me for a replacement. :bonk:
 
Let's not get too carried away with the 200,000 figure, folks. It's just an expected value, not a guarantee.

Assuming Canon's engineers know what they're doing, I would expect that to be the MTTF (Mean Time To Failure), which would imply that 50% will fail before that time and 50% after that time. Or maybe they've picked some other percentile - perhaps it means that (say) 20% will fail before 200,000 actuations and 80% after. It is certainly not a guarantee that your shutter will live to 200,000 and it is not a prediction that it will die at 200,001.

Having said that, I agree that 20,000 does sound a bit on the low side. But unfortunately I don't think you have much of a leg to stand on legally. If I were you I'd get back to Canon and suggest that (bearing in mind you're a CPS member and you've got all this expensive Canon kit, blah blah blah, and unlucky you've been for a shutter to fail so far short of its rating) they might like to contribute to the cost of repair.
 
StewartR said:
Let's not get too carried away with the 200,000 figure, folks. It's just an expected value, not a guarantee.

Assuming Canon's engineers know what they're doing, I would expect that to be the MTTF (Mean Time To Failure), which would imply that 50% will fail before that time and 50% after that time. Or maybe they've picked some other percentile - perhaps it means that (say) 20% will fail before 200,000 actuations and 80% after. It is certainly not a guarantee that your shutter will live to 200,000 and it is not a prediction that it will die at 200,001.

Having said that, I agree that 20,000 does sound a bit on the low side. But unfortunately I don't think you have much of a leg to stand on legally. If I were you I'd get back to Canon and suggest that (bearing in mind you're a CPS member and you've got all this expensive Canon kit, blah blah blah, and unlucky you've been for a shutter to fail so far short of its rating) they might like to contribute to the cost of repair.
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depends on age of camera and the claims of the company

most things are covered for up to six years, but that doesnt mean you will get a new one after six years.

to me clear case of not meeting the claims of the company and not meeting the described for purpose advertising.

need to know age and then go from there. and yes he does have a leg to stand on legally.
 
If you went the legal route under SoGA I think you'd have a winner. 20k isn't reasonable when Canon quote 200k and that's what the decision will be based on, the expectations of a "reasonable person".

But do you want to spend the time and effort taking that option and is it worth the saving of £188 when balanced against the time without the camera? It might be worth testing the waters with the shop to see how they stand, they might, just might, feel it's worth paying for the repair in order to avoid the additional costs they'd face from defending a claim.
 
Only yesterday I read an article from a sports tog shooting up to 3,000 images a day at some events he attends; so on that basis this new camera could break after a week???

Yep - seriously peed off would be my response too

I'm with pxl8 on this one

DD
 
Could someone post a link to the Canon 'rated to 200,000 statement' as I can't find it and would like to read what they actually say.

I would also like to know how old this camera is and if the shutter count of 20,000 is warranted and if it was bought new in the UK.
 
A magnesium alloy body with dust and moisture resistant sealing protects the EOS-1D Mark III from harsh weather and the rigours of daily use. Shutter reliability is a durable 300,000 cycles.
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is what Canon say for the mkIII, I'm guessing it was similar for the mkII but 200k instead.
 
write a well worded letter, include example shots of shutter going tits up and don't forget to mention sales of goods act and reasonable wear and tear - if its rated to have a life expectancy in the region of 200,000k then to fail at 10% of this is unacceptable. this happened to me (non-N version), had a chat to canon - who did nothing for a couple of weeks, until I got fed up and called back and said I was CPS then a bit of frantic shuffling their end and I got a call back in an hour, ups sticker came the next day and it got fixed f.o.c. - be reasonable and polite and you should be fine.

sale of goods act means its basically got a reasonable life time in which it is expected to work without problems, six years seems to be the norm, and for higher value equipment this is obviously weighted towards an extended period of time; you paid a lot so expect it not to die in only 2 or 3 years! I believe professional equipment (like the 1d series) falls into this category. That canon state an average life expectancy on a critical working part does help in your favour - 10% of the lifespan and it fails is, without wanting to sound stupid, taking the ****. mine died at 15k so I know exactly how it feels...
 
My 20D is around 40k, id of been annoyed had it died at the 20k mark nevermind a professional grade camera.
 
admirable said:
Could someone post a link to the Canon 'rated to 200,000 statement' as I can't find it and would like to read what they actually say.

I would also like to know how old this camera is and if the shutter count of 20,000 is warranted and if it was bought new in the UK.
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See Canon's 1D Mark IIN White Paper, page 14.
 
Hello,

First off thanks for taking the time out to reply to my thread - I appreciate the help :)

Here was the first response from the CPS rep:

"I have spoken to the Canon service department and there have informed me that there is no policy stating that if the camera has done under 20,000 shots that we'll replace the shutter free of charge, if it's out of warranty by more than a couple of months then it's out of warranty and chargeable. However, they did say to ask the customer to send it in for inspection and they will see if there's anything we can do, depending on the condition and how far it's out of warranty, but it will purely be goodwill.
If the camera is in a good condition, you have a better chance of them repairing / replacing the faulty unit for you though I cannot promise you anything."


I did not say to them that there was a policy of free repair - I did mention that other folk had theirs fail above 20k and got it repaired free of charge.

What gets on my wick as such is when you hear on the net that other folk had a shutter that failed at 50k and Canon said it was well below expected limits so replaced it free of charge.

I do not mind paying £188 if I have to as in the end it makes more financial sense to get it repaired for the cost of £188 than to throw away the camera.

Camera was purchased from a small independant shop in Scotland 6 months after launch so well out of warranty and the shop itself has ceased trading.

Over two and a bit years I have put 20k through it so to have it fail at such an early stage given the light use is disapointing to say the least.

It has certainly left a sour taste in my mouth and the 5D MKII looks like a no go for me now as I really do not like the way this has worked out so far.

Will just send them another email - might even send one to the board :)

I was not to sure if I was being unrealistic so I thought I would ask you guys and it seems that I am not being to far off the ball.

Many thanks again,

Murray :)
 
The plot thickens:

Using my downloaded 1D shutter counts from the web its says 19,206 actuations.

Just had a phone call from Canon and they say it has done 140,000 actuations.

Now I am not going to call Canon a liar but it seems I have been stitched up good and proper by the shop I bought it from.

Just a shame the shop is now out of business otherwise it would have been a time for some :bat::rules::bat:

Will just fork out the cash and notch it up as another hindsight moment.

Why cant life be simple?

Thanks for your help,

Murray :)
 
1DMARKII said:
Hello peeps,



"Replace shutter unit.Set up and test. = £188"


Murray :)
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I'd be happy to pay £188 for a shutter replacement on my 1D MKII N with 63K clicks on it. My estimate was £425 for shutter replacement.
A complete shutter unit costs delivered for the states £126 if I thought I could fit it myself I'd do it!
 
Cost me about £180 to have mine done and on the invoice the part was £65
the rest was labor, vat and return postage.I was hapy at that price in the end as the camera got a full service and calibration.
 
I've a 1DMK2 and a 1DMK2N. The N has about 345,000 on it. Checked with an image uploaded to flicker the other day. The camera is just on its way back from CPS after have a focus and over exposure problem fixed. So 20K should be brand new. If Canon say its done nearly 150K there should be some tell tale signs of wear and tear on the body.

Mine is looking a bit battered. Been dropped. Banged it into a wall whilst climbing over it. Been soaked through, to the point where it gave up and game me the Err 99 message. Quick overnight staying the airing cupboard and its always fine.
 
I'm calling CPS for an estimate this week my body is like new with the odd small mark on it 64k clicks out of 200k they rate on the camera.
 
You will win this case for sure if counter is really under 200k This kind of camera shutter expected life time is a lot longer than 20k. It might take a bit time, but in legal way you will win.

Call directly to UK Canon sales or service manager, i think their might have a lot more understanding than custom service :D

Canon and every manufacturer things have "extended warranty" over normal 12month warranty if problem is quality based or fault in manufacture.

They called it Goodwill warranty but actually it based on law( at least in here, i think it is common in eu area)
 
I don't think anyone IS reading this thread, it was started last year!
 
I'd be gutted if mine went at 20,000.

I bought a 450D and put 8,000 on it in less than 2 months, and that was using it now and again. When bursting motorsport it adds up quickly.

I now have a 50D that is on 3,000, so that's a large percentage of the shutters life!
 
Canon UK sent me out a ups label so camera could be returned to them it was collected from my house wed but they will not get it until mon. Not a very good service so far if you ask me & at one of my busiest times of the year if things keep going along this routethe move to Nikon are looking more & more likely.
 
That sounds strange, any time I've had anything collected by UPS for Canon it's arrived the next day!

Are you paying for this service?
 
Kryptix said:
I'd be gutted if mine went at 20,000.

I bought a 450D and put 8,000 on it in less than 2 months, and that was using it now and again. When bursting motorsport it adds up quickly.

I now have a 50D that is on 3,000, so that's a large percentage of the shutters life!
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My 40D shutter went at about 40K and 15 months old, not a happy bunny as the previous camera, a 300D is still going strong and I put over 75k shots through that.

The 40D wasn't fixed in a reasonable time under warrenty (8 weeks of faff through Jessops), so in the end I demanded a refund and had vouchers, so upgraded to a 50D.
 
Canon User said:
Canon UK sent me out a ups label so camera could be returned to them it was collected from my house wed but they will not get it until mon. Not a very good service so far if you ask me & at one of my busiest times of the year if things keep going along this routethe move to Nikon are looking more & more likely.
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That's strange. My 400D went through Canon to Colchester Cameras who sent a courier, collected, booked in the same day and had it turned around fixed to me in 6 days.

The other mob who Jessops used, took a week to book it in, 8 weeks to continuously tell me the part would be there in two days, yes we've got it/no we haven't..


With a 1D Mk2, do you qualify for CPS membership and a 3 day turnaround?
 
Byker28i said:
With a 1D Mk2, do you qualify for CPS membership and a 3 day turnaround?
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It used to be you needed 2 pro quality bodies and a minimum of 3 L lenses to qualify for CPS membership . I'm not sure if it's still the same, but I wouldn't rely too heavily on that 3 day turn around anyway. :D
 
People keep banging the drum about 200,000 actuations but that is "tested for 200,000 cycles" which sounds to me like Canon fire the shutter 200,000 times to make sure it is working okay and does not fail, not saying it will last on average 200,000 cycles.

Even if it is meant that it lasts 200,000 cycles on average there is no indication of variability; 1, 1000 and 1999 have the same mean and median as 999, 1000 and 1001 yet the number series varies highly.
 
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