180 shutter rule....

specialman · 23 May 2012

So I understand the mechanics of a film shutter and why the 180 rule exists, and I've kind of got my head around the fact that shooting at 1/50th (or thereabouts when at 24/25fps) it creates a 'filmic' blur, but I'm struggling to understand why I'd need to slavishly stick to it when using a 'shutterless' DSLR.

I've seen some natty demos of what happens when you shoot at higher and higher shutter speeds - you end up freezing the action more, a'la Saving Private Ryan - but for what I need it for (angling web featurettes) is to a big deal if the rule goes out of the window? What action I do capture is generally slower (except for casting) and ultimately, it's a workaround from not having built-in ND filters when base ISO is used and I still can't get low f-stops.

Just after some general thoughts.....

AESamuel · 23 May 2012

It will look weird, even to the untrained eye. Depends whether you want it to look weird or not.

jacob12_1993 · 24 May 2012

Its all about the look, if you needed to go for a higher shutter speed maybe shoot at 30fps? It won't make a massive difference but will allow you to shoot at 1/60s and maybe even a smidge higher without looking wrong to the viewer. 24fps is the classic cinematic look but its not too practical for fast moving action.

AESamuel · 24 May 2012

jacob12_1993 said:
Its all about the look, if you needed to go for a higher shutter speed maybe shoot at 30fps? It won't make a massive difference but will allow you to shoot at 1/60s and maybe even a smidge higher without looking wrong to the viewer. 24fps is the classic cinematic look but its not too practical for fast moving action.

That is possible, but it also depends on the editing software. If you have editing software than can only deal with PAL (25 frames a second) and doesn't work with NTSC (30fps) then you may have some trouble. If you are using a decent bit of software though you should be able to use any framerate you want. Although if you want to mix framerates you may get some interesting results without transcoding.

specialman · 24 May 2012

AESamuel said:
It will look weird, even to the untrained eye. Depends whether you want it to look weird or not.

I'll have a look for the term 'weird' in the camera manual :lol:

I'm using FCP X so it should be able to handle all sorts of frame rates - I know it handles 30 and 24/25 because I've edited footage from various devices that have worked fine

I've shot some footage today in both manual (1/50th and whatever aperture is required) plus I've shot some in AV mode, so setting the aperture and letting the shutter speed ride into the hundredths of a second..... I'll take a closer look once it's all uploaded to see what the difference is. It's all about learning the kit I suppose, so I better get used to what works and what doesn't

AESamuel · 24 May 2012

specialman said:
I'll have a look for the term 'weird' in the camera manual

I'm using FCP X so it should be able to handle all sorts of frame rates - I know it handles 30 and 24/25 because I've edited footage from various devices that have worked fine

I've shot some footage today in both manual (1/50th and whatever aperture is required) plus I've shot some in AV mode, so setting the aperture and letting the shutter speed ride into the hundredths of a second..... I'll take a closer look once it's all uploaded to see what the difference is. It's all about learning the kit I suppose, so I better get used to what works and what doesn't

Is it possible for you to upload the video where you were in Av mode? Would be interesting to see what fluctuating shutter speeds looks like

specialman · 24 May 2012

Will do - I'll upload it to Vimeo and then do a link

specialman · 25 May 2012

As promised, two scenes that were shot at something like f/5.6 so the shutter speed went up to something like 1/400thsec....

[youtube]tpHPI4CGzRQ[/youtube]

jacob12_1993 · 25 May 2012

specialman said:
As promised, two scenes that were shot at something like f/5.6 so the shutter speed went up to something like 1/400thsec....

[youtube]tpHPI4CGzRQ[/youtube]

Its quite obvious that the higher shutter speed has been used in this, watch the movements, there are lots of little judders rather than a nice smooth movement

AESamuel · 25 May 2012

specialman said:
As promised, two scenes that were shot at something like f/5.6 so the shutter speed went up to something like 1/400thsec....

[youtube]tpHPI4CGzRQ[/youtube]

To be honest, that isn't as bad as I would have imagined. It really depends on what you are going to be using the video for. If its a commercial thing for someone else then they might not be happy but if it is for yourself and you think it looks good then by all means go for it. The movements of the guy are acceptable in some circumstances but the thing that annoyed me most was the flies; they seemed to randomly pop up out of nowhere :lol:

Like I said, depending of what you are using it for it is perfectly usable. Thanks for uploading it!

specialman · 25 May 2012

jacob12_1993 said:
Its quite obvious that the higher shutter speed has been used in this, watch the movements, there are lots of little judders rather than a nice smooth movement

I wouldn't say it's that obvious, although there is a a real definition in every movement because of the higher shutter speed.

AESamuel said:
To be honest, that isn't as bad as I would have imagined. It really depends on what you are going to be using the video for. If its a commercial thing for someone else then they might not be happy but if it is for yourself and you think it looks good then by all means go for it. The movements of the guy are acceptable in some circumstances but the thing that annoyed me most was the flies; they seemed to randomly pop up out of nowhere

Like I said, depending of what you are using it for it is perfectly usable. Thanks for uploading it!

These are for use on the magazine websites, viewed in a YouTube-sized panel and not really for full screen. They're also going to be embedded into magazine apps for iPad/iPhone, so again, not massive viewing size.

The flies do look a bit mad - I've told the location manager to order slower flies in future :lol:

AESamuel · 25 May 2012

specialman said:
These are for use on the magazine websites, viewed in a YouTube-sized panel and not really for full screen. They're also going to be embedded into magazine apps for iPad/iPhone, so again, not massive viewing size.

The flies do look a bit mad - I've told the location manager to order slower flies in future

I can't really see it being a problem then, just be sure to not let the shutter speeds get near the 1/1000ths and you'll fare fine. Also good to check your footage as much as possible, if it doesn't look ok to you then change up what your doing.

Hope I was some help!
Asa

EDIT: Also to add for any shots where there will be a lot of movement, especially where it is important to see what is going on it will be better to keep it at 1/50th so whoever is watching can see it without stutters.

specialman · 25 May 2012

AESamuel said:
I can't really see it being a problem then, just be sure to not let the shutter speeds get near the 1/1000ths and you'll fare fine. Also good to check your footage as much as possible, if it doesn't look ok to you then change up what your doing.

Hope I was some help!
Asa

EDIT: Also to add for any shots where there will be a lot of movement, especially where it is important to see what is going on it will be better to keep it at 1/50th so whoever is watching can see it without stutters.

It's good to get someone else's take on this. It's a new thing to me, especially having control over settings - the previous camcorders I used at work were full auto so there was little else for me to do other than point it and press record.

Today I did the whole 15-minutes of movies in AV mode and it was a guy doing a lot of creeping around, stalking in the bushes (sounds dodgy, it's not :lol:

) so that'll be the acid test, so to speak