Will we be able to keep warm this winter ?

badlywornroy

badlywornroy

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How many are aware of the parlous state of the UK's gas supply ?
You must have noticed the meteroic rise in energy costs ? my dual gas & electric costs are 40% higher than a year ago !

I worked for the then nationalised British Gas for many years in Transco within the gas transmission network. After privatisisation I 'snatched' at early retirement at the 1st chance. It was already apparent that decisions that would previously always be taken by engineers i.e safety and continuity of supply were now being taken by 'bean counters' (accountants)

The UK's main gas storage facility the Rough field which provided 70% of the UK's gas storage capacity was closed in 2017 after a government (of the day) decision not to subsidise the cost of maintenance.
Many experts (then and now) lambasted this decision as short-sighted and highlighted the long term dangers.

That closure reduced Britain's buffer against price moves and left it at the mercy of global markets. ... When Centrica closed Rough, no other storage facilities were built.

The UK's stores hold enough gas to meet the demand of four to five winter days, or just 1% of Europe's total available storage. The Netherlands has capacity more than nine times the UK's, while Germany's is 16 times the size. Britain's continental neighbours also have lower gas market prices, we no longer have the storage to alleviate market fluctuations and are forced to purchase gas at current maket prices.

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I think out of your text " after a government (of the day) decision not to subsidise the cost of maintenance." is pretty much it.
why should government pay for private enterprise? we are in the problems today because there is no value in storing gas and private companies just want profit.
 
I will cos I don’t have have gas.
Oil and wood for the win!
 
Didn't you get the memo? We're all moving over to ground source heat pumps despite (1) lots of people living in flats and (2) them not actually, you know, working.

That's after all the gas firms go under because the lovely government capped what they could sell at but not their purchase cost.

Progress, innit?
 
Mr Bump said:
I think out of your text " after a government (of the day) decision not to subsidise the cost of maintenance." is pretty much it.
why should government pay for private enterprise? we are in the problems today because there is no value in storing gas and private companies just want profit.
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The UK government has always subsidised private industry when it suits them and when it is in the national interest.

In 1980 Margaret Thatchers government funded the creation of the Rough storage facility via the nationalised British Gas.

N:B Rough storage was a depleted gas field in which gas was pumped back in for security of supplies

In 1986 Margaret Thatchers government privatised British Gas.
In 2017 the Conservative government made the decision to allow Rough storage to close and no more storage facilities to be built.

We are now importing around 60% of our gas from Europe. N:B Russia supplys 50% of Europe's gas.
Experts report Russia is restricting supplies to Europe which is part of the reason for the large price rise.

As our off sea gas supplies continue to run down we will increasingly become dependent upon Russia for continuinty of gas supplies.
Does this give you a warm 'fuzzy' feeling ? :( or was it in 'The national interest' to keep adequate gas storage supplies ?
 
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The govt subsidise heavily the private rail operators. TBH it seems wrong that if they cap the selling price, they're isn't a quid pro quo in terms of either subsidising the purchase price or subsidising storage to stabilise the market price.
 
badlywornroy said:
Does this give you a warm 'fuzzy' feeling ? :( or was it in 'The national interest' to keep adequate gas storage supplies ?
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Once again, that religious book they all claim to adhere to is clearly being ignored - sell off the seven fat cows for a profit now and let the seven thin cattle look after themselves!
:tumbleweed:
 
I'm guessing these I'm alright Jack responses are tongue in cheek and you might not use gas but manufacturing industry does and you certainly won't be alright when price sky rocket.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
Once again, that religious book they all claim to adhere to is clearly being ignored - sell off the seven fat cows for a profit now and let the seven thin cattle look after themselves!
:tumbleweed:
Click to expand...
We can always burn the cardboard boxes the grey imports arrive in rofpmsl
 
jakeblu said:
I'm guessing these I'm alright Jack responses are tongue in cheek and you might not use gas but manufacturing industry does and you certainly won't be alright when price sky rocket.
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Much of the 'manufacturing industry' that are large users of gas are on " Interruptible Gas supply contracts" this allows the National Grid to require these users to switch to alternate
supplies ? The use of interruptible contracts is one of the standard tools National Grid uses to balance the gas network in the conditions expected in a severe winter.

In it's simplest terms gas pipeline pressure must be maintained or pilot lights on domestic appliances will go out.
 
jakeblu said:
I'm guessing these I'm alright Jack responses are tongue in cheek and you might not use gas but manufacturing industry does and you certainly won't be alright when price sky rocket.
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yeah spot on mate, all the wood burning super polluters think they are proper clever, even dirtier than diesel so if you have a diesel and a wood burner you are at the lower end of the pond.

Wood burning at home now biggest cause of UK particle pollution​

This article is more than 7 months old
Fires used by just 8% of population but cause triple the particle pollution of traffic, data shows
 
JonathanRyan said:
Didn't you get the memo? We're all moving over to ground source heat pumps despite (1) lots of people living in flats and (2) them not actually, you know, working.

That's after all the gas firms go under because the lovely government capped what they could sell at but not their purchase cost.

Progress, innit?
Click to expand...
I read a couple of articles yesterday about ground and air sourced heat pumps.
I think BoJo and the rest of his cronies must have been on crack cocaine when they announced the 5K grant for switching to a heat pump.
I'll post the links to the articles if I can find them as they are very enlightening.
 
hashcake said:
I read a couple of articles yesterday about ground and air sourced heat pumps.
I think BoJo and the rest of his cronies must have been on crack cocaine when they announced the 5K grant for switching to a heat pump.
I'll post the links to the articles if I can find them as they are very enlightening.
Click to expand...

Yes, I read a bit about heat pumps, gawd help us if this is the long term solution to global warming. You will be OK if you have plenty of money and can afford a heat pump the size of a small shed. If your not 'well off' or live in a poorly insulated house you will need your heat pump supplemented by ancillary heating.
 
Mr Bump said:
yeah spot on mate, all the wood burning super polluters think they are proper clever, even dirtier than diesel so if you have a diesel and a wood burner you are at the lower end of the pond.

Wood burning at home now biggest cause of UK particle pollution​

This article is more than 7 months old
Fires used by just 8% of population but cause triple the particle pollution of traffic, data shows
Click to expand...

oooh, another name to add to my belt along with bigoted, racist, xenophobic, transphobic, uneducated, smugger (from another active thread) and now super polluter.

Yes, I burn oil because I don't have a choice and also occasionally properly kiln dried wood which is not the cause of particle pollution unlike wet wood.

Concerned About Air Pollution | South Yorkshire Firewood

Concerned About Air Pollution | South Yorkshire FirewoodIn response to this and as a business involved in the supply of high quality kiln dried firewood & kindling, we would like to take the opportunity to add our comments on the matter.
www.southyorkshirefirewood.com

I also drive a diesel van.
 
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i believe it's even worse to burn peat. Any takers?
 
hashcake said:
I read a couple of articles yesterday about ground and air sourced heat pumps.
I think BoJo and the rest of his cronies must have been on crack cocaine when they announced the 5K grant for switching to a heat pump.
I'll post the links to the articles if I can find them as they are very enlightening.
Click to expand...

My next door neighbours had ground source. They used to have engineers there tinkering for at least a week and usually 2 every year. They also supplemented with solar hot water because they liked hot water instead of warm. At least in the summer.

Also, lucky we had good double glazing. Their outside pump was pretty noisy and ran constantly. I can only imagine what their electricity bills were like.

I'm really not sure this is going to go too well.
 
JonathanRyan said:
My next door neighbours had ground source. They used to have engineers there tinkering for at least a week and usually 2 every year. They also supplemented with solar hot water because they liked hot water instead of warm. At least in the summer.

Also, lucky we had good double glazing. Their outside pump was pretty noisy and ran constantly. I can only imagine what their electricity bills were like.

I'm really not sure this is going to go too well.
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Our next door neighbour has the air version in their old stone barn conversion. I have no idea how well it works, but haven't heard complaints and it's not particularly noisy.

In France from 2022 oil and gas boilers can no longer be fitted, and heating must be by heat pump or conventional electric, though I have a feeling that wood is also encouraged in some areas. There's also a range of modern wood pellet heaters that appear to be super clean and functional.
 
Mr Bump said:
yeah spot on mate, all the wood burning super polluters think they are proper clever, even dirtier than diesel so if you have a diesel and a wood burner you are at the lower end of the pond.

Wood burning at home now biggest cause of UK particle pollution​

This article is more than 7 months old
Fires used by just 8% of population but cause triple the particle pollution of traffic, data shows
Click to expand...
Depends what you're burning and how efficient your burner is.
 
ecoleman said:
oooh, another name to add to my belt along with bigoted, racist, xenophobic, transphobic, uneducated, smugger (from another active thread) and now super polluter.

Yes, I burn oil because I don't have a choice and also occasionally properly kiln dried wood which is not the cause of particle pollution unlike wet wood.

Concerned About Air Pollution | South Yorkshire Firewood

Concerned About Air Pollution | South Yorkshire FirewoodIn response to this and as a business involved in the supply of high quality kiln dried firewood & kindling, we would like to take the opportunity to add our comments on the matter.
www.southyorkshirefirewood.com

I also drive a diesel van.
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it think the the term is DYTIGAFAY?
 
DYTIGAFAY? & YDGAFAABYAYMB

What are these, scrabble words ? :(
 
badlywornroy said:
Yes, I read a bit about heat pumps, gawd help us if this is the long term solution to global warming. You will be OK if you have plenty of money and can afford a heat pump the size of a small shed. If your not 'well off' or live in a poorly insulated house you will need your heat pump supplemented by ancillary heating.
Click to expand...
I read it that you won’t even qualify for the heat pump grant unless you have a super efficient house, so double or triple glazed, massive amounts of loft insulation etc etc. So there’s already a considerable outlay before you even qualify for the £5k grant. I also wonder what other catches there will be… when I looked into applying for the old green grant to top up our loft insulation I found we didn’t stand a hope of getting anything because we’re not on any sort of benefits and our kids are grown up.
 
I don't see why not?

Do I have enough clothing to keep me warm when I am walking outside the house? Yes.

Then why would I be in trouble when inside the house? No one is forcing me to stay naked (unfortnately! :banana:) When pushed comes to shove, I only need hot water to shower.
 
Remember when the government encouraged us to buy diesel cars and since changed their mind.
It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if they back tracked on heat pumps.
 
ecoleman said:
oooh, another name to add to my belt along with bigoted, racist, xenophobic, transphobic, uneducated, smugger (from another active thread) and now super polluter.

Yes, I burn oil because I don't have a choice and also occasionally properly kiln dried wood which is not the cause of particle pollution unlike wet wood.

Concerned About Air Pollution | South Yorkshire Firewood

Concerned About Air Pollution | South Yorkshire FirewoodIn response to this and as a business involved in the supply of high quality kiln dried firewood & kindling, we would like to take the opportunity to add our comments on the matter.
www.southyorkshirefirewood.com

I also drive a diesel van.
Click to expand...
Don't people in cities realise that not everyone has a gas supply?
Or mains sewage?
Or even mains water?
Or fast broadband?
And need to drive diesel-powered 4WD vehicles?

One of the problems of governments (or all persuasions) is that the people who make the decisions are wealthy city dwellers who are completely out of touch. Fuel availability (and price) simply doesn't affect them.
 
boogie man said:
I read it that you won’t even qualify for the heat pump grant unless you have a super efficient house, so double or triple glazed, massive amounts of loft insulation etc etc. So there’s already a considerable outlay before you even qualify for the £5k grant. I also wonder what other catches there will be… when I looked into applying for the old green grant to top up our loft insulation I found we didn’t stand a hope of getting anything because we’re not on any sort of benefits and our kids are grown up.
Click to expand...
Ah ! heat pumps, 'The devil is in the detail' as they say.

Leaving aside the 'machinations' required to actually obtain sufficient heat from your heat pump there are physical considerations to overcome ?

Ground source heat pumps are more efficient, and more expensive.
A ground source heat pump system harnesses natural heat from underground by pumping water through underground pipes.

The maximm length for a loop of pipe will be 400m but depending on the size of the heat pump required you may require 2 or more ground loops. The average system
will require between 600 and 1200 square metres of land. The land must be clear of trees and buildings. Your average 'stately home' should be Ok then ? :D

Air source heat pumps that the ' hoi polloi ' will install will need something the size of a small washing maching ' plumbed in ' on an outside wall.
They will need a hot water storage cylinder. Most CH systems installed in recent years are ' Combi ' systems (direct hot water) with no hot water cylinder.
Before you folk with indirect hot water (you have a HW storage cylinder) begin to feel smug be aware that most existing HW cylinders will not be big enough.
 
badlywornroy said:
Ah ! heat pumps, 'The devil is in the detail' as they say.

Leaving aside the 'machinations' required to actually obtain sufficient heat from your heat pump there are physical considerations to overcome ?

Ground source heat pumps are more efficient, and more expensive.
A ground source heat pump system harnesses natural heat from underground by pumping water through underground pipes.

The maximm length for a loop of pipe will be 400m but depending on the size of the heat pump required you may require 2 or more ground loops. The average system
will require between 600 and 1200 square metres of land. The land must be clear of trees and buildings. Your average 'stately home' should be Ok then ? :D

Air source heat pumps that the ' hoi polloi ' will install will need something the size of a small washing maching ' plumbed in ' on an outside wall.
They will need a hot water storage cylinder. Most CH systems installed in recent years are ' Combi ' systems (direct hot water) with no hot water cylinder.
Before you folk with indirect hot water (you have a HW storage cylinder) begin to feel smug be aware that most existing HW cylinders will not be big enough.
Click to expand...
Thinking less locally, ground heat pumps will likely be fine in much of rural Europe, where having 1000m + of land is not unusual. Air heat pumps have been in use for quite some time (the one next door must be at least 10 years old now) and is roughly the size of 2 typical Aircon units stacked together. I saw smaller models in France.

They won't work for everyone, but will still be useful for some.
 
ancient_mariner said:
Thinking less locally, ground heat pumps will likely be fine in much of rural Europe, where having 1000m + of land is not unusual. Air heat pumps have been in use for quite some time (the one next door must be at least 10 years old now) and is roughly the size of 2 typical Aircon units stacked together. I saw smaller models in France.

They won't work for everyone, but will still be useful for some.
Click to expand...
Yes, much of Europe has been using them for years.
Heat pumps are ideally suited to new/recent build housing with high insulation standards. We in the UK have the oldest housing stock in Europe. The money required to
bring much of our housing up to the standard required may make the 37 billion spent on Test & Trace seem cheap ?
 
badlywornroy said:
Ah ! heat pumps, 'The devil is in the detail' as they say.

Leaving aside the 'machinations' required to actually obtain sufficient heat from your heat pump there are physical considerations to overcome ?

Ground source heat pumps are more efficient, and more expensive.
A ground source heat pump system harnesses natural heat from underground by pumping water through underground pipes.

The maximm length for a loop of pipe will be 400m but depending on the size of the heat pump required you may require 2 or more ground loops. The average system
will require between 600 and 1200 square metres of land. The land must be clear of trees and buildings. Your average 'stately home' should be Ok then ? :D

Air source heat pumps that the ' hoi polloi ' will install will need something the size of a small washing maching ' plumbed in ' on an outside wall.
They will need a hot water storage cylinder. Most CH systems installed in recent years are ' Combi ' systems (direct hot water) with no hot water cylinder.
Before you folk with indirect hot water (you have a HW storage cylinder) begin to feel smug be aware that most existing HW cylinders will not be big enough.
Click to expand...
Just been reading up on the hot water side of things heated by an air source pump. Firstly, you need a heavily insulated tank, which presumably needs a bigger space than a normal one. Secondly the pump only gets the water up to 45-50 C which is on the cool side for domestic water, so you need an auxiliary electric heater. So more power consumption. I can’t see how an air source pump will actually save much in running costs? (I know it’s more about getting rid of pollution from burning gas though).

I also assume, with my cynical head on, that once we’ve completely got rid of gas fired boilers and are totally reliant on electricity that the power companies will jack the price up as they’ll have a monopoly on how we heat our homes (and run our cars).
 
boogie man said:
Just been reading up on the hot water side of things heated by an air source pump. Firstly, you need a heavily insulated tank, which presumably needs a bigger space than a normal one. Secondly the pump only gets the water up to 45-50 C which is on the cool side for domestic water, so you need an auxiliary electric heater. So more power consumption. I can’t see how an air source pump will actually save much in running costs? (I know it’s more about getting rid of pollution from burning gas though).

I also assume, with my cynical head on, that once we’ve completely got rid of gas fired boilers and are totally reliant on electricity that the power companies will jack the price up as they’ll have a monopoly on how we heat our homes (and run our cars).
Click to expand...
Yes. And as much as I hate the typical inefficiencies and wastage of nationalised industries, it seems to me that there are some types of service industries that really should be nationalised, in the public interest, with benefits going to public owners not to private shareholders, and with government options to control prices.
 
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