Beginner White balance quandary.

[Thatchapthere]

Hey,

Getting to grips with WB, however there is something puzzling me - I'm tending to set it to Cloudy as a default for all outdoor conditions, as, after experimenting (setting Daylight/Auto in both dark and light conditions) I tend to get a warmer non-flat, desirable result.using Cloudy,

I always get a bluish/grey hue when in Daylight/Auto, in all outdoor conditions. Is having a default setting for all outdoor standard? This goes against what I'm reading in tutorials etc.

 

[sep9001]

Hi

Do you shoot raw or JPEG? If raw leave it at auto and correct according in pp. i

If you shoot JPEG please wait for the experts to reply.

Thanks

 

[Thatchapthere]

Hi

Do you shoot raw or JPEG? If raw leave it at auto and correct according in pp. i

If you shoot JPEG please wait for the experts to reply.

Thanks

Shoot in RAW but not for PP purposes as not doing that just yet (tho have Lightroom).

 

[KIPAX]

Do you shoot raw or JPEG? If raw leave it at auto and correct according in pp. i

You think telling him to take a bad picture and fix in computer is good advice ?

OP what camera system is this ?

 

[woof woof]

You think telling him to take a bad picture and fix in computer is good advice ?

OP what camera system is this ?

"Kev" didn't tell him to do that. Are you replying to the right thread?

There's nothing wrong with altering the WB post capture if shooting raw. All a JPEG is is a file processed in camera with settings decided by the manufacturer. There's nothing magic in a JPEG that makes it correct and superior to what a user can do with a raw and I'll say that 100 times out of 100 I'll be more satisfied with the end result when shooting raw with auto WB set and correcting the WB (and anything else I see fit to fiddle with) later if need be than shooting JPEG and letting the camera decide what settings, including WB, to apply.

 

[woof woof]

Hey,

Getting to grips with WB, however there is something puzzling me - I'm tending to set it to Cloudy as a default for all outdoor conditions, as, after experimenting (setting Daylight/Auto in both dark and light conditions) I tend to get a warmer non-flat, desirable result.using Cloudy,

I always get a bluish/grey hue when in Daylight/Auto, in all outdoor conditions. Is having a default setting for all outdoor standard? This goes against what I'm reading in tutorials etc.

I've usually found cameras to be pretty good at getting the WB somewhere near looking natural in daylight but sometime it can be off and much more so once artificial lighting comes into play.

I don't know what camera you have but if you've spent a decent amount of money or have an interest in photography rather than happy snapping I think you might get more from the experience and your pictures by shooting raw and processing them yourself. It really isn't a daunting thing to do and I'm sure there are video clips and tutorials on line to help you with the camera and processing software of your choice and if you can't find any I'm sure someone here will help.

 

[BillN_33]

You will get different views

I never shoot cloudy ..... always too warm for me .........., but many do use cloudy in daylight conditions

I shoot RAW and use Auto in daylight and then adjust in pp

In camera adjustments can have a mind of their own

 

[buxtonmick]

What's your WB set at on your camera settings? Not 'Tungsten' by any chance...

 

[snerkler]

You need to get to know your camera, some are better at auto WB etc than others. On my Sony A77 and Olympus EM10/EM5 I find I have to tweak WB in post more often than not, but 99% of the time my D750 gets WB spot on and so happy to leave it in Auto. You can also fine tune WB on this camera too so you can add more magenta for example to a WB setting.

I went on a wildlife photography course and the guy said to leave it on cloudy to give a nice warm colour but it looked terrible on my camera so went back to auto.

 

[J.D.]

"Kev" didn't tell him to do that. Are you replying to the right thread?

There's nothing wrong with altering the WB post capture if shooting raw. All a JPEG is is a file processed in camera with settings decided by the manufacturer. There's nothing magic in a JPEG that makes it correct and superior to what a user can do with a raw and I'll say that 100 times out of 100 I'll be more satisfied with the end result when shooting raw with auto WB set and correcting the WB (and anything else I see fit to fiddle with) later if need be than shooting JPEG and letting the camera decide what settings, including WB, to apply.

Exactly this, if shooting in RAW the WB set in camera is irrelevant and has no effect at all on the image data. Selecting a WB in PP is no different to setting it in camera, with the exception that you can manipulate it to whatever values are required more easily.

I always leave WB set to auto in camera and use a grey card to set WB in PP.

 

[Thatchapthere]

Cheers for replies.
Have the entry level Nikon D3200. I do feel the Cloudy setting works for me outdoors as stated, tho appears there's a view to alter PP and just set to auto.- This may be the next step (after mastering the camera first haha!)

.

 

[Emja]

Cheers for replies.
Have the entry level Nikon D3200. I do feel the Cloudy setting works for me outdoors as stated, tho appears there's a view to alter PP and just set to auto.- This may be the next step (after mastering the camera first haha!)

.

I also have the d3200. I shoot in RAW, but also leave the wb on cloudy like you as I prefer a warmer image most of the time. If I feel it doesn't suit the subject, or I've been shooting very close to sunrise/set I often adjust in PP as it can definitely seem too much. If I'm shooting under artificial light I always change it in camera. Hope you're enjoying getting to know the camera - I certainly am! A couple of good books and some great advice on here has definitely helped

 

[Thatchapthere]

I also have the d3200. I shoot in RAW, but also leave the wb on cloudy like you as I prefer a warmer image most of the time. If I feel it doesn't suit the subject, or I've been shooting very close to sunrise/set I often adjust in PP as it can definitely seem too much.

Yeah! I'm not going colour blind then
Flickr account set up - just need the gonads to put up a first pic.

 

[Kodiak Qc]

You think telling him to take a bad picture and fix in computer is good advice ?

•
An advice becomes a good one only when applied by the user.

Here is my advice:
RAWs files may be interpreted with much greater latitude than jpg pictures. Though
I will aim at my students adopting the (my) old school SOOC chemical approach, it
is clear, in respect to digital photography, that contrary to DoF, sharpness, or exposure,
WB is a lesser problem.

Granted, understanding WB is a must! …as using one specific WB setting for all situations
is not understanding it at all nor is it good practice (though of lesser consequence).

I shoot RAW and use Auto in daylight and then adjust in pp. In camera adjustments can have a mind of their own

+1

In photography, as elsewhere, the only absolute is… relativity!

 

[mortimerhill]

Hey,

Getting to grips with WB, however there is something puzzling me - I'm tending to set it to Cloudy as a default for all outdoor conditions, as, after experimenting (setting Daylight/Auto in both dark and light conditions) I tend to get a warmer non-flat, desirable result.using Cloudy,

I always get a bluish/grey hue when in Daylight/Auto, in all outdoor conditions. Is having a default setting for all outdoor standard? This goes against what I'm reading in tutorials etc.

When you say you get a colour cast, is that on the screen on the back of the camera or on a pc / laptop screen? If the latter, have you calibrated the pc / laptop screen? Check the output device before blaming the camera

 

[AJQS]

Cheers for replies.
Have the entry level Nikon D3200. I do feel the Cloudy setting works for me outdoors as stated, tho appears there's a view to alter PP and just set to auto.- This may be the next step (after mastering the camera first haha!)

.

This has always been my view too, but people on here seem to prefer cool for some reason, those of us who prefer warm images are very much in a minority.

 

[HoppyUK]

White balance is both a science and an art.

There is technically correct, where colours accurately match reality; and subjective, where they look the way you most like them - both are equally valid.

The subjective side comes into it because of the way we interpret colours, with a our brains applying large amounts of correction so everything looks the same, regardless of the colour of the light source. Technically correct white balance works for that, but not always. Common examples are candle light, or a bonfire or sunset where correct WB just looks wrong.

Then there is an inbetween option where correct WB is just tweaked a bit to make it look nicer - usually a bit warmer often looks attractive. But don't try that with a bride's dress (unless she's on fire).

As a comment, our vision is often quite tolerant of slight colour inaccuracies when viewed in isolation, but very sensitive to it when presented with a series of images of the same subject rendered with slightly different white balance. Ask any wedding photographer that has to cope with everything from bright sun to cloud to shade to indoors under all kinds of artificial light and still come up with a consistent set of images.

 

[omens]

White balance is both a science and an art.

There is technically correct, where colours accurately match reality; and subjective, where they look the way you most like them - both are equally valid.

I think this is something that's making me reconsider WB more and more. I'm still at that novice stage where if I take a photo, I'll use the dropper to correct WB but I'm finding more that it doesn't match what I saw. In the morning sun, with the golden hour, white is going to take a yellowish hue. In the strong midday sun, it might look slightly bluey. For some reason, I seem to notice this eg I'm at my desk and there's a stack of white paper but I'm aware it looks more orange-tinted because of the fluorescent light tubes in the office.

 

[HoppyUK]

I think this is something that's making me reconsider WB more and more. I'm still at that novice stage where if I take a photo, I'll use the dropper to correct WB but I'm finding more that it doesn't match what I saw. In the morning sun, with the golden hour, white is going to take a yellowish hue. In the strong midday sun, it might look slightly bluey. For some reason, I seem to notice this eg I'm at my desk and there's a stack of white paper but I'm aware it looks more orange-tinted because of the fluorescent light tubes in the office.

I use the dropper as technically accurate is a good starting point, then take it from there to taste.

When you get critical with white balance, it's important to have a calibrated workflow - monitor and printer etc. You have no control over the colours seen by others on their monitors, and they're quite likely to be all over the place, but at least you'll know your version is the way it should be. Also, if you send off to have prints made, a good lab will ensure their machines are kept in close tolerance but unless your monitor is also accurate the colours will be different.

 

[snerkler]

Yep, no rights and wrongs with WB. I personally adjust it so that it's as close to what I can remember seeing with the naked eye.

 

[Pookeyhead]

Hey,

Getting to grips with WB, however there is something puzzling me - I'm tending to set it to Cloudy as a default for all outdoor conditions, as, after experimenting (setting Daylight/Auto in both dark and light conditions) I tend to get a warmer non-flat, desirable result.using Cloudy,

I always get a bluish/grey hue when in Daylight/Auto, in all outdoor conditions. Is having a default setting for all outdoor standard? This goes against what I'm reading in tutorials etc.

If you are shooting raw, then technically, it doesn't matter what you set the camera too, as WB is not a fixed value, and adjustments in Lightroom or Adobe Camera raw cam be made with no quality penalty whatsoever. If you shoot raw, just set to Auto WB and adjust in post... or, best practice would be to take at least one image with a grey card in the frame as a WB point. Be aware though, that lighting conditions outside can change rapidly, so taking a grey card reference shot would have to be done regularly.

If you're shooting JPEG then it's important to get it right, as making colour balance adjustments to a JPEG WILL have a quality penalty, as your shifting colours around in a 8bit image. If shooting JPEG, then it's important to understand colour temperature. Colour temp changes throughout the day, and with varying weather conditions. There is no way to accurately assess it except with a light meter that also measures colour temperature. This is just one of many reasons not to shoot in JPEG unless you have a good reason to.

Shoot raw... make sure the first frame you shoot of any scene has a grey card in the frame, then you would just use the white balance dropper tool on the grey card. If outside, make sure you take regular reference shots with a grey card because light can change RAPIDLY, especially at the beginning, or end of the day, or as clouds roll in or out etc.

 

[snerkler]

If you are shooting raw, then technically, it doesn't matter what you set the camera too, as WB is not a fixed value, and adjustments in Lightroom or Adobe Camera raw cam be made with no quality penalty whatsoever. If you shoot raw, just set to Auto WB and adjust in post... or, best practice would be to take at least one image with a grey card in the frame as a WB point. Be aware though, that lighting conditions outside can change rapidly, so taking a grey card reference shot would have to be done regularly.

It's interesting as I went on a Nikon course and the Nikon rep said that he believes WB as well as picture control (standard, vivid, flat etc) will effect RAW as well as it effects the luminosity and dynamic range of the different colours so recommended to get setting right regardless of shooting jpeg or RAW. How true this is I don't know as I've not done any testing, but an interesting point of view nonetheless.

 

[Pookeyhead]

It's interesting as I went on a Nikon course and the Nikon rep said that he believes WB as well as picture control (standard, vivid, flat etc) will effect RAW as well as it effects the luminosity and dynamic range of the different colours so recommended to get setting right regardless of shooting jpeg or RAW. How true this is I don't know as I've not done any testing, but an interesting point of view nonetheless.

Well he's wrong. Looks like Nikon "teachers" don't know their arse from their elbow. Test it yourself if you want... but he's talking b******s.

WB settings in camera WILL be kept when importing a raw file, but it's a raw... you can reset the WB to whatever you want. Nothing in a raw file is a permanent change. You can just reset it to default any time you like.

 

[snerkler]

Well he's wrong. Looks like Nikon "teachers" don't know their arse from their elbow. Test it yourself if you want... but he's talking b******s.

Do you have evidence to back this up? (not being argumentative, just interested to know to understand for myself)

 

[BillN_33]

Well he's wrong. Looks like Nikon "teachers" don't know their arse from their elbow. Test it yourself if you want... but he's talking b******s.

just asking - is every RAW file, (Nikon, Canon, Sigma, etc., etc.,) - the same ............ and I seem to remember that my M8 churns out .DNG images

 

[Pookeyhead]

just asking - is every RAW file, (Nikon, Canon etc., etc.,) - the same ............ I seem to remember that my M8 churns out .DNG images

No idea with Leica and DNG (although I'm assuming it is so) but raw is raw whether it's NEF, CR2, ORF.. what have you... nothing is a permanent change. It can be reset to default, straight and unmolested at any time you like. That's one of the advantages of it (along with not being locked into a bitmapped image format).

 

[UaeExile]

Something I've never quite understood...

Why is it that "if you shoot RAW it doesn't matter", when you can change the WB of a JPEG just as easy? Is the outcome really that much better with RAW files?

 

[mrgubby]

Something I've never quite understood...

Why is it that "if you shoot RAW it doesn't matter", when you can change the WB of a JPEG just as easy? Is the outcome really that much better with RAW files?

The way I understand it is that with JPEG your camera decides the processing of the shot then throws away the "unneeded" data, with RAW it keeps all the data + shot settings for you to make the final decision

 

[Steve B]

Well he's wrong. Looks like Nikon "teachers" don't know their arse from their elbow. Test it yourself if you want... but he's talking b******s.

WB settings in camera WILL be kept when importing a raw file, but it's a raw... you can reset the WB to whatever you want. Nothing in a raw file is a permanent change. You can just reset it to default any time you like.

I think you are wrong there, especially if using a custom white balance.
Having done quite a bit of testing to achieve a white balance for shooting with welding glass as a neutral density filter, Adobe's RAW engine does not have enough latitude to correct the white balance and shows up its limitations.
Yes it is an extreme situation, but does show that there can be reasons for getting it right in camera, rather than relying on post processing after to correct.
Here's a comparison between using Canon's dedicated DPP software and ACR.
RAW or RAW ??? by Steve Bennett, on Flickr

 

[BillN_33]

RAW Converters are different???

 

[Steve B]

RAW Converters are different???

Yes they are it seems.

 

[BillN_33]

Yes they are it seems.

and that is the start of the process with what comes out of the camera

 

[BillN_33]

and that is the start of the process with what comes out of the camera

so what we FIRST see as a RAW image has been influenced by the software parameters set to convert the original digital information

 

[mrgubby]

Again the way I understand it is that "custom" settings can affect the auto exposure so may cause the RAW settings to clip (under / over expose) in any of the auto modes. Custom WB & other settings *should* have no bearing on the RAW file in manual mode

 

[BillN_33]

Again the way I understand it is that "custom" settings can affect the auto exposure so may cause the RAW settings to clip (under / over expose) in any of the auto modes. Custom WB & other settings *should* have no bearing on the RAW file in manual mode

Indeed, I may be wrong, but I believe that there is an auto WB setting that is applied to the info when taking RAW Nikon images that "controls" the highlights to a certain degree

(Edit - I am incorrect - such an adjustment is applied in a metering mode)

but I am in no way technical and someone on here must have the technical "truth"

 

[Steve B]

Again the way I understand it is that "custom" settings can affect the auto exposure so may cause the RAW settings to clip (under / over expose) in any of the auto modes. Custom WB & other settings *should* have no bearing on the RAW file in manual mode

I would be very surprised if a white balance setting effected exposure, though I dont know how Nikon handle it. I think they call it "PRE" or something like that, instead of custom white balance.

 

[snerkler]

I would be very surprised if a white balance setting effected exposure, though I dont know how Nikon handle it. I think they call it "PRE" or something like that, instead of custom white balance.

I think he said it was something along the lines of WB affecting the luminosity of the colours and so will affect how much of a colour is in the highlight areas, shadows etc. Was a while ago and my memory's shocking to say the least

 

[HoppyUK]

David PH is right, and the Nikon guy was wrong. There is no difference between setting correct white balance in-camera and adjusting the Raw in post-processing. The camera applies correction at the JPEG stage, not Raw, same as in post. The only thing I would say is I like to get the colour approximately right in-camera because it gives you a more accurate LCD image that is easier to assess when working. I prefer to use the camera's pre-sets for that (daylight, tungsten etc) rather than rely on auto-white-balance. Some cameras are pretty good at AWB, other less so, and I can usually guess it near enough. The other thing about AWB is that it can change slightly if you're shooting a lot of similar images under the same light, when they should be the same, eg different groups of people at an event. Having fixed WB fixed with the pre-sets makes things easier in post-processing because when you've corrected colour for one image, it can be applied to all the others.

How WB affects auto exposure is a different question, and it's possible (in theory) that it might shift slightly in evaluative/matrix mode. The latest cameras have very sophisticated metering systems, with RGB sensors linked to focusing and subject (face recognition etc). Details of manufacturer's algorithms are very complex and not published (and they're not necessarily accurate, either) but if you have WB set approximately right then that's working for you anyway.

As for shooting Raw vs JPEG, if you read the forums it's easy to come away with the idea that you can do anything in Raw, but next to nothing to a JPEG. While the former is true, you can actually do quite a lot to a JPEG in terms of colour balance or exposure etc and not notice any difference. However, if you post-process anyway, shooting JPEG is pretty pointless - you lose the benefits of Raw (well worth having) and you also lose at least a stop off the highlights straight off the bat by the in-camera process. That seems like madness to me. Raw uses a lot more memory, but that is cheap these days, very cheap.

 

[boliston]

i find that the sunlight setting seems to most accurately capture what the eye actually sees so i always leave the camera set that way

 

[HoppyUK]

i find that the sunlight setting seems to most accurately capture what the eye actually sees so i always leave the camera set that way

Yes, that should work. Provided you only shoot in sunlight...