Which lighting is best?

[Sydney]

Hello! I'm new year, I'm not a very experienced photographer (I have studied it briefly for 2 years and know the basics) but it's very important for my little business.
I've started an online business selling vintage clothing and in attempt to complete a professional look, I'd like for my photos of each item to look...well...professional.
It's fairly standard photography - clothing on a hanger/grid/mannequin with a white backdrop but I'm struggling with lighting. I really love the look of natural lighting, I don't want to play around too much with shadows - just straight forward, clean, sharp images with a plain backdrop. On summer days, my room is the perfect (or almost) light to do this but as it's winter now and the days are darker, one window and a little light bulb really don't work. I need something fairly standard that gives even lighting.
I was thinking of getting LED lights - you know when you walk into a shop and it's nice and bright on ceiling- that sort of thing, but because I never got the hand of studio lighting or anything I do need a bit of help deciding.

Would getting LED light panels on my ceiling work for an even lighting, do you have any other suggestions?

A fairly cheap alternative to standing outside and taking photos (I'm turning my room into a little office) - I don't want to get too into studio lighting until I'm a bit more advanced and do shoots with models - currently it's just the standard.

this is a photo I found online to give you an idea of ideally, the perfect outside look - I don't expect exactly this, but to replicate something similar

something like this would be okay, just an even lighting


I'm sorry, I'm not very good at all this but I'm desperate to make the right choice!

 

[Sydney]

heres a better example of what I'm looking for...maybe a little too blue but any suggestions would be great

 

[Garry Edwards]

Frankly, those last two examples are appalling!
Basically you have two choices, for online sales.
1. Produce boring, flat shots with virtually no shadows, against a white background. These will indicate what the goods actually look like and will be consistent, the downside is that they won't produce a 'want' in the customer.
2. Produce imaginative, well-lit photos that show the composition, shape and texture and which make the customer want to own the item. This involves much greater investment in lighting equipment and a much sharper learning curve, but will pay off in terms of sales.

Whichever option you go for, you will, in each case, need a 'money' shot that is consistent with all other shots and which shows the complete item, and you will also need several detail shots, from various angles, showing the benefits in detail. With clothing, and especially women's clothing, shots on mannequins are a very poor substitute for using attractive models. People who buy clothes like to convince themselves that if they buy that item, they will look like the model who is wearing it - and nobody wants to look like a lump of plastic

Using daylight is not an option, it is inconsistent and unreliable and is difficult to control, and lighting is really all about control. If you use daylight you will be limited to shooting in dull light only, sunlight is far too contrasty, and you won't get consistency unless you take every single shot in the same lighting conditions.

The LED panel lights are frankly a waste of time. The biggest single problem with them is that it is impossible to modify the size and shape of the light in any way, in addition they are usually made from unsuitable LED's that do not render colours accurately. You can get photographic quality LED lights that produce light of the correct colour and with enough power, and that also take the essential modifiers that change the shape and size of the light, but they are more expensive than studio flash heads, so it would make economic sense to get flash heads instead.
Household-style LED lights are even a greater waste of time, if that is possible, than LED panel lights.

Hope this helps

 

[Sydney]

Thank you for the response!
I'm not at a professional level at either photography or vintage selling - currently, I'm just after the really basic and bland white background, no shadows. I sell online on various apps and websites so it's really just about giving the most realistic photograph, nothing to creative or arty! as if it were on an online store. It's a very basic set up, I'm only looking towards using models and experimenting with more creative 'money shots' once I have got my own website and have gotten a bit more of a following.
No worries about how I'm going to sell my items, I'm doing pretty well haha, just need something basic to start from and then develop my business further - no point investing £££ on all of this when all that I need at the minute is an even light!

Thank you for all the advice though, will keep it all in mind - I think I'm going to settle for LED lights after all, an unemployed 19 year old can't really afford all the big time photography things! I will see how this goes

 

[boyfalldown]

Thank you for all the advice though, will keep it all in mind - I think I'm going to settle for LED lights after all, an unemployed 19 year old can't really afford all the big time photography things! I will see how this goes

@Garry Edwards has given you some great advice. Don't ignore it. Buy LED lights and you'll be wasting your cash. It'll just take longer to save for 'big time photography things'

 

[benc98]

If your images are being uploaded to a marketplace, it's more important that they stand out in terms of quality etc...

 

[Phil V]

What Garry and Hugh said, you've asked for advice, and having got some really good advice, you've decided to ignore it. Keep a bookmark of it anyway, for when you've realised that LED lighting won't do what you want, then you can come back to it.

 

[Diving Pete]

If you pay attention to anything - then please listen to Garry about this - you can quite definitively call him an expert on this subject..
Check out your competition websites - they use flash for a reason & it all comes back to they will sell more..

 

[Sydney]

Ahhh I didn't mean to offend anyone, I am strongly considering all of his advice, it's just not exactly what I need at this stage - it is something I will be focusing on in the future but currently it's more of an 'ebay' thing than anything else. Once I've got my own website and sorted out the businessy things then I'm going to be taking it far more seriously, but right now I just need something to lighten up my room that's really, really dark! I've discussed this with some people I know and we've experimented with what we've got so far and LED seems like an alright idea, please don't think I'm not taking his advice - I really am, but right now I just want a neat, even, clean photo, nothing more.
Sorry if I seemed a bit ignorant, I just turned to this forum as part of my research into my situation

 

[FlyTVR]

As already said, Garry is the light guru.

Thinking about this, have you considered paying someone to take the shots for you? This would allow you to concentrate on the clothing business.

Good luck

 

[Sydney]

I can't afford to do that, it's very, very amateur at the minute, I just need something to lighten the room - I think I'd rather try learn for myself when I want to do something more experimental though, photography is a beautiful art and something I wouldn't mind learning a bit more about when the time comes. I do know a guy who takes the most beautiful film photos though - I was thinking at some point he could help with promotional images.
Considering I've sort of settled for LED lights, if you guys do happen to have any suggestions at all of lighting equipment - do let me know! I'm happy to compare and research a bit further to ensure I end up with the right thing.

 

[Phil V]

...
Considering I've sort of settled for LED lights, if you guys do happen to have any suggestions at all of lighting equipment - do let me know! I'm happy to compare and research a bit further to ensure I end up with the right thing.

Not wishing to labour the point, but cheap LED lights aren't really bright enough and the colour means they can't show the colour of your items properly. This makes them unsuitable. If you want to spend a fortune, we can recommend LED lights that will work well, but flash is much cheaper brighter and has better colour in comparison.

So we can recommend LED lights, but would you really want us to?

 

[miker]

Are you talking LED lights designed for photography, or general LED interior lighting?

I think everyone here is assuming you are talking about LED photography lights, but if that is not the case, then LED is probably an even worse choice. If all you want is to make the room you do your photography in brighter, then just add more lighting. Most LED's are pretty poor at offering anything in the red part of the spectrum, which is why they (And things lit by them) often look so cold.

Also, any quality LED interior lighting will be far from the cheapest option!

 

[Sydney]

would you suggest a photography studio starter pack? they have some on amazon for like £50, would that be better?

 

[Phil V]

would you suggest a photography studio starter pack? they have some on amazon for like £50, would that be better?

If they're the continuous lighting kits, it's the same issue, underpowered and inconsistent/incorrect colour.

I appreciate you don't want to be a 'pro' or get too technical, but if you remember at school when you shone a white light through a prism, there was a full spectrum of colour making up the white light. Well the cheap 'daylight balanced' white bulbs don't do that, they don't produce the full spectrum.

Therefore when you light something with them, the light bouncing off your subject isn't the same as you'd see in daylight, so the colours are 'off' in a way you can't fix. Flash and really expensive continuous lights don't suffer the same symptoms, but flash is brighter and cheaper. You can start by bodging around with a speedlight, it's not an easy tool to use, but it'll give you better results.
Start with the speedlighters handbook, to understand how light behaves and can be manipulated.

 

[Phil V]

For an extreme example to illustrate the above what 'colour' is a red car under streetlights?

 

[riddell]

OK, to be harsh your photos look amateur in everyway. What I would describe as ebay quality photos.

Unfortunately just buying a set of lights really isn't going to solve your problem as you need to understand all the subtleties of how to use them.

As a full time photographer I shoot collections for several different companies from some small designers to major high street retailers and I know from experience just how often you have to move, adjust change the lighting and camera settings between different items of clothing - jeans, dresses, skirts, tops etc. and between different fabrics on the same types of items. Shooting dresses the other day needed changes virtually every garment. On top of this you often have to make changes between items that are exactly the same, just different colours. For a whole range of teeshirts the other other day I needed to keep putting up or taking down various silks, flags and bounces.

Its not easy, and needs far more equipment than just a couple of cheap LED lights* Far better to invest in a professional photographer.

You'll be surprised how much quality photos matter to customers when internet shopping. I've several small clients who after a couple of years of struggling and using cheap photographers have bitten the bullet and finally invested in quality photography, and subsequently have started to increase sales of 30% or more. It really makes a difference.

*p.s. LED lights aren't very good for photography at all. Quality, expensive units are however excellent at videography, which is what they are designed for.

 

[Garry Edwards]

You'll be surprised how much quality photos matter to customers when internet shopping. I've several small clients who after a couple of years of struggling and using cheap photographers have bitten the bullet and finally invested in quality photography, and subsequently have started to increase sales of 30% or more. It really makes a difference.

100% right. We live in a crowded marketplace, where everyone and his dog is running an online sales business, all the products look very similar when the photography is poor and it needs outstanding photos to persuade a customer to choose a specific product.

If you're selling nuts and bolts, or little gizmos that plug into computers, then a photo that just shows what a product looks like may be good enough, but if you're trying to sell aspirational products such as clothes then you need to make the customer aspire to own them...

It's all about sales, and poor or even average photos are no longer good enough - if they ever were.

 

[Lemaildetom]

Not an expert at all but these pictures you linked look really dull and ugly. I have done few times some pictures for putting stuff on ebay or even on here, and also I'm really not an expert i did got better results than this!

Buy a tripod so you can slow down the shutter speed and get a nice exposure even in tough light, use a reflector made of a white sheet (optional), and had a bit more separation between item and the backdrop and you will already get much better results... Without even investing in any kind of lightning. What I think is important for you is to get the white balance right. Nothing worse that buying item which are not the colour expected.

Then I agree with everyone else. If you are a business, some good picture will definitely bring you out of the pack! ANd show your professionalism.

 

[Sydney]

yeah these aren't my pictures theyre ones I quickly found online to demonstrate - it's not the photography I've been concerned about but just a way to light up a dull corner of my bedroom so start working with. I realise I'm on a photography forum so it's all really important to you to get technical but I was just wondering how to get an even, bright light. I'm pretty happy to stay very amateur until I want to go a bit further into this, I understand and have considered everything you are suggesting but again, it's not important right now while I'm on ebay and stuff - I just wanted light, not a professional photograph. when I decide to take this further I'll consider photography as an important factor but I was only asking for light and dare I say it - I use my iphone to take most of the photos - because on depop it's really not that important. Once I have my own website, photography/styling etc would be very important so I'll keep all the advice for a later date.
Maybe I wasn't very clear but thanks anyway everyone

 

[simonbarker]

What's actually going to serve the op the best though? They're not going to get a full setup on the kind of budget we're talking about here, a lot more work needs to go into just composing the shots properly and then there's the lighting to consider!

 

[Sydney]

no worries, I've found a really helpful article online that's making it all very clear and giving good suggestions - I'll refer to that and do my own research and experimenting with my room and situation before I buy - thanks everyone, that'll be okay from here

 

[benc98]

you've received some pretty good business / marketing advise as well as photography advice - you should really listen. The photos you posted are dull, unprofessional, dindgy and unattractive - this does not sell products. Nowadays people expect great images at a minimum when buying online, some websites have started to provide videos with models wearing the garment.

 

[benc98]

why not try to collaborate with local hobbyist photographers and models for TF - Photographers and models get to use vintage clothing for the portfolios and you get to use the images on your website. it might be enough to get you started

 

[simonbarker]

yeah these aren't my pictures theyre ones I quickly found online to demonstrate - it's not the photography I've been concerned about but just a way to light up a dull corner of my bedroom so start working with. I realise I'm on a photography forum so it's all really important to you to get technical but I was just wondering how to get an even, bright light. I'm pretty happy to stay very amateur until I want to go a bit further into this, I understand and have considered everything you are suggesting but again, it's not important right now while I'm on ebay and stuff - I just wanted light, not a professional photograph. when I decide to take this further I'll consider photography as an important factor but I was only asking for light and dare I say it - I use my iphone to take most of the photos - because on depop it's really not that important. Once I have my own website, photography/styling etc would be very important so I'll keep all the advice for a later date.
Maybe I wasn't very clear but thanks anyway everyone

Try to consider, you're speaking with some professionals who are telling you what you need to do to get the best results possible. I do think some of the advice right now isn't ideal for you but in the long run it's what you need to do.

Considering you want to spend the least money possible and you aren't fully committed (no offense) I'd suggest you source a cheap but not horrible second hand 2 head kit and something like a Colorchecker passport. Which would set you back about £150-200 but it would help give you more consistent results and should things go well for you this would be a basic foundation to work from.

At the very least take the advice to heart about not touching LED or continuous lighting, they'll give you enough light to shoot but not a lot more.

 

[Phil V]

I really appreciate that you think it's 'professional' so you don't need to know, but please take a minute to read my posts about why the type of light is very important.
It's about colour accuracy. Whenever I'm discussing business advice I start from the same place. Why would it matter to your customers?
Customer looking for a blue jumper to go with some trousers they already have, they find some blue-grey ones on your site that look perfect, they order them, and when they arrive the colour is wrong, because your cheap lights are crap. They're now p***ed off and have to return them for a refund?

Does that really not matter to you as a business owner?

Forget all the 'nice to haves' like decent photography and standing out from the crowd, this is fundamental, if your colour is wrong, you're setting yourself up to fail.

 

[Sydney]

thank you SO much simonbarker, you've really given the sort of response I was hoping for. I am taking all of the advice, as I have said multiple times but as you said, some of it isn't ideal right now - doesn't mean I'm not considering it - I really, really am! For some reason everyone seems to think I'm knocking all of the advice but I'm not, I'm just trying to think for my current situation which is a really dull room that I have to use to take photographs!
I'm going to look for second hand kits - do any of you have any suggestions for books for beginners or about lighting?
and yeah thank you Phil - I did read them and I completely understand, thank you for all your help. I was mainly focussed on LED lights because of the brightness and thinking about when I'm in a clothing shop and found the lighting in there something quite nice to work with to take 'snapshots' not studio shots. I also thought they'd be good because I follow someone on Depop, who takes photos of their clothing in their store and the lighting was absolutely lovely - I could see in the mirror that the room had LED lights.
You must remember that I am literally taking ebay style photos for now, so I appreciate all the advice from everyone regarding how to use photography to sell, how important the shadows and lighting and colour are but I just want a continuos light, really not keen on the idea of shadows either. If I find in the future that this is something that I would like to take further, then I will consider models, a proper studio etc - but I've only been using an iphone and daylight and I've done really, really well, so this was the next step - because winter became a problem and my clothing has become popular, I've decided to invest a little more into it, using my canon and getting display grids and stuff to help out. I'm still really stuck on this because I understand that LED lights is not the BEST option but from what I've experimented with it seems to have worked okay for me - and when looking and other sellers lighting situation, I just wanted to replicate the lighting. I want it to be easy, not much setting up and fiddling - just adding light to my room.
I dunno! I'll have a look at second hand kits and have a little think and research more into it.
thanks everyone!

 

[Sir SR]

why not try to collaborate with local hobbyist photographers and models for TF - Photographers and models get to use vintage clothing for the portfolios and you get to use the images on your website. it might be enough to get you started

Possibly the best solution all round given the budget/expertise.

 

[Sydney]

No worries, I've found a set up that might be just what I need - I didn't want to commit full price for vintage selling but I've found one that's gone from almost £400 to £180, which means that if I do decide to sell it at a later date, in good condition, I will most likely get my money back.

 

[riddell]

To the OP - reading all your last posts, its obvious that you have no idea what you are doing and don't want to listen to all the excellent advice you have received.

Like someone desperate to hear only the answer you want to hear and nothing else you've gone with the one solution you want to hear - Buy a couple of cheap heads. An answer (and no disrespect to Simon) has come from someone with no prior credits and not even an image posted on this site or a link to their website.

So go and buy a couple of heads its obvious you have no idea what you are doing with them or how to control them and since you are comically using an iphone you won't even be able to control them properly or even get them to work properly.

 

[boyfalldown]

To the OP - reading all your last posts, its obvious that you have no idea what you are doing and don't want to listen to all the excellent advice you have received.

Like someone desperate to hear only the answer you want to hear and nothing else you've gone with the one solution you want to hear - Buy a couple of cheap heads. An answer (and no disrespect to Simon) has come from someone with no prior credits and not even an image posted on this site or a link to their website.

So go and buy a couple of heads its obvious you have no idea what you are doing with them or how to control them and since you are comically using an iphone you won't even be able to control them properly or even get them to work properly.

So few words......so much irony

 

[simonbarker]

Like someone desperate to hear only the answer you want to hear and nothing else you've gone with the one solution you want to hear - Buy a couple of cheap heads. An answer (and no disrespect to Simon) has come from someone with no prior credits and not even an image posted on this site or a link to their website.

Was the ad hominem really necessary?

 

[FJS]

Great advice from Garry, but if it's a little eBay style shop or boutique with low turnover and you have no ambitions to be a still life/fashion/product photographer then I'd use available light or what you can afford. Just don't expect great results!

Teaming up with a local aspiring photographer might be a good option for you!

 

[JennyGW]

Thank you for the response!
I'm not at a professional level at either photography or vintage selling - currently, I'm just after the really basic and bland white background, no shadows. I sell online on various apps and websites so it's really just about giving the most realistic photograph, nothing to creative or arty! as if it were on an online store. It's a very basic set up, I'm only looking towards using models and experimenting with more creative 'money shots' once I have got my own website and have gotten a bit more of a following.
No worries about how I'm going to sell my items, I'm doing pretty well haha, just need something basic to start from and then develop my business further - no point investing £££ on all of this when all that I need at the minute is an even light!

Thank you for all the advice though, will keep it all in mind - I think I'm going to settle for LED lights after all, an unemployed 19 year old can't really afford all the big time photography things! I will see how this goes

Not sure why you came here for advice?

 

[Garry Edwards]

This is really a very simple matter.
We have given you advice, it's sort of advice on lighting (because you asked your question in the lighting forum) but it's really as much business advice as lighting advice.

Having read our advice, you are left with various options:
1. Follow it, which will cost you more than you budgeted for and which will involve a lot of learning and practice but which will improve your sales dramatically. That's what successful business people do, regardless of whether they can afford it or not, because that's the approach that improves sales.
2. Pay a professional to do it for you. Bear in mind though that 'professional' is a very imprecise term in photography and there are loads of professionals around who know no more about lighting products than you do - even if they think they do.
3. Get a keen amateur to help you, but with the same caveat above - and bear in mind too that photography is as much about marketing the product as lighting it, so even if someone has lighting knowledge and equipment, it doesn't follow that the shots will be any good.
4. Follow Simon Barker's advice, it's pretty poor advice in terms of lighting but very good advice in terms of a compromise solution for your specific and immediate needs.
5. Stick with your view that just having more light will do, in the hope that producing bad photos of your products will somehow generate enough profit to make it possible to do it properly in the future.

Many of us on this forum are business people as well as lighting people, so we understand the importance of each - but only you can make the decision...

 

[simonbarker]

4. Follow Simon Barker's advice, it's pretty poor advice in terms of lighting but very good advice in terms of a compromise solution for your specific and immediate needs.

To be fair I did suggest she follow the advice she's been given but I don't follow why my advice is bad for lighting, why would a (for example) Lencarta kit with a few years on it not serve her well and be a good foundation?

 

[Sydney]

I find it very strange that at no point have I intentionally been rude to any of you, yet you all have seem to have taken a large offence to the fact that I am struggling to fit your suggestions into my situation - maybe I'm not too good and explaining but thanks for your help anyway, I'd suggest that the next time someone doesn't agree to follow your suggestions, you don't try and force it upon them. Besides, I HAVE been listening to your suggestions, while you've all been accusing me of not because as previously mentioned - I have decided on a small studio set up that I found - no LED. I just don't spent all my time on a forum letting you know each step of my research. Actually, I said many times (and thanked you all many times) for all your suggestions and that I was also considering them - I'm just not at the stage when it's all completely relevant... I think for professionals, it's quite unprofessional to be so rude to someone looking for a bit of help. Thanks anyway, I learnt a lot (through all the insults thrown at me) and managed to make a decision based on all the information given. I'm not the bad guy, I'm just trying to learn - I'm very uneducated on photography and it's just a part of my business venture I was trying to get a better insight to before I invested in lighting.

 

[Garry Edwards]

Try to consider, you're speaking with some professionals who are telling you what you need to do to get the best results possible. I do think some of the advice right now isn't ideal for you but in the long run it's what you need to do.

Considering you want to spend the least money possible and you aren't fully committed (no offense) I'd suggest you source a cheap but not horrible second hand 2 head kit and something like a Colorchecker passport. Which would set you back about £150-200 but it would help give you more consistent results and should things go well for you this would be a basic foundation to work from.

At the very least take the advice to heart about not touching LED or continuous lighting, they'll give you enough light to shoot but not a lot more.

.

To be fair I did suggest she follow the advice she's been given but I don't follow why my advice is bad for lighting, why would a (for example) Lencarta kit with a few years on it not serve her well and be a good foundation?

Any decent quality kit would of course be a massive improvement on the OP's proposals - no doubt about that, but a couple of flash heads isn't the solution - what is also needed, and what is far more important, is the knowledge element

 

[cosmicma]

i would suggest something like this

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-1250W...graphy_StudioEquipment_RL&hash=item5405e9ae10

cheap n cheerful and would give you a bit more even light ( but not a great amount ) for very little money

considering your using an iphone some sort of continuous lighting is the only way to go but LED lighting would be a waste of time unless your willing to invest a small fortune to achieve the amount of light you would need

if you do buy the lights in the above link ( or similar ) it is going to teach you how important decent lighting really is
a couple of bulbs in softboxes will be better than nothing but don't expect miracles but i think 50 quid is worth the lesson

 

[Sydney]

ahh thank you so much for a great suggestion that's a cheaper alternative to what I'm looking at, probably more or less exactly all that I need..
I do currently use my iphone (I only used it because I sell on an app and it made the process so much quicker) but I'm going onto using my canon as this is my next step - moving onto the internet for selling (think etsy)
I was considering buying this: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B005KYK1UU/ref=ox_sc_act_image_5?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A6ZVX1R8X207M
I know it's got a lot of stuff and even though I'm just keeping a really simple approach to taking the photos, I thought that as I progress I could then start to include models for lookbooks which means I'd use some of the features a bit more. Do you reckon that it'd be a good buy? considering it's on offer and has gone down so much in price (this means that if I choose to sell it, if still in good condition, I'd at least make my money back). I know it's quite a lot to go buy when you're not particularly looking for much but it does leave me a lot of space to start exploring photography a bit more when I get to that stage (e.g having my own website/promotional shots/lookbooks)