Beginner Where to start

Mich56

Mich56

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I want to move on to taking shots in manual mode - where would be the best place to start with this? I am wondering if I should maybe do an on-line course so I work through and understand all the different elements or is there one thing to grasp first that's the most important - thanks in advance for any pointers. :) (I am using a fuji X-S1 bridge camera)
 
Rather than doing an online course, watch some YouTube videos, it's a whole world of info and you can watch them at your leisure, watch a bit, pause it, try it out, then watch a bit and so on. I have learned so much from there and it's all free which is always a winner with me.

Have fun!
 
Honest opinion, you're looking for 'advancement' in the wrong place.

Shooting Manual in itself will give you nothing you can't get without, your 'control' increases by understanding your metering. The quality of your photography improves when you learn to understand light. No one ever became a better photographer because they turned their camera to Manual mode. Learning the exposure triangle is handy, but it teaches you nothing about 'photography'.

I'm not too familiar with your camera, but I'll bet that it's not simple to use in Manual mode (it'll put ergonomic problems in your way). So rather than 'improving' your photography, it'll just make getting the same results more frustrating.

Eventually you'll need to improve your gear, because there are technical limitations using bridge cameras, but hopefully that'll happen organically when your frustration can't be cured any other way.
 
Mich56 said:
I want to move on to taking shots in manual mode - where would be the best place to start with this? I am wondering if I should maybe do an on-line course so I work through and understand all the different elements or is there one thing to grasp first that's the most important - thanks in advance for any pointers. :) (I am using a fuji X-S1 bridge camera)
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This is a good place to start - good tutorial on the basics by our Pookeyhead http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/th...ure-theory-but-were-afraid-to-ask-101.440126/

Many newcomers think that using Manual is in some way better, but it's not - it's just a different route to the same end, ie correct exposure. The key to success is understanding what the different settings do, and how they work together in relation to the light and the subject. It's all in that link :)
 
Mich56 said:
I want to move on to taking shots in manual mode...
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Why? As Phil says, it won't make you a better photographer. Understanding metering - ie learning how to set the correct exposure for a given subject/scene - will make a difference, but it's a different topic. If you understand metering, then you know when you can trust the settings your camera recommends for you in its automatic exposure modes, and when to over-ride them. But overriding them doesn't necessarily mean using manual mode.
 
if the fuji XS1 is anything like the OH's HS30 EXR fuji then using manual is pretty straight forward ( other than manual focus which on these cameras as soon as you touch the focus ring it zooms in which is supposed to be an aid to help you ensure sharp focus but is a hindrence in that you cant see the whole subject matter ).
also if it has the same controls as the exr you have to switch between f stop and shutter speed rather then have 2 seperate controls for them so it can be a little fiddly and time consuming.
bridge cameras are fine for what they do and shooting aperture or shutter priority on them is ok to a point ( though ive found they tend to over expose by 1-2 stops and end up using exposure compensation to step them down ) as said above though manual or auto , if you can judge the light ( and the composition ) then it makes little difference.
 
Thanks everyone :) - the links are very helpful and I will be reading a lot! Thanks Stewart & Phil - I understand what you are saying re metering and am going to focus on that. (Dean yes the fuji XS1 has the switch between f stop and shutter speed rather than 2 separate controls.)
 
I'm sorry to contradict what some have said but understanding the basic exposure triangle is the first step to bettering your photography as a beginner. Many, including myself find that using the manual mode is good way to do this. You can not understand how to work with light until you understand how to expose properly. Here are some links that will help you in a lot of ways. Shutter speed and iso are pretty easy to understand. I would suggest that you spend extra time getting a very good understanding of aperture. Spending extra time on this is well worth it in my opinion.

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/

http://www.adorama.com/alc/

:canon:
 
shaylou said:
I'm sorry to contradict what some have said but understanding the basic exposure triangle is the first step to bettering your photography as a beginner. Many, including myself find that using the manual mode is good way to do this. You can not understand how to work with light until you understand how to expose properly. Here are some links that will help you in a lot of ways. Shutter speed and iso are pretty easy to understand. I would suggest that you spend extra time getting a very good understanding of aperture. Spending extra time on this is well worth it in my opinion.

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/

http://www.adorama.com/alc/

:canon:
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Too many people think that "Using Manual" is synonymous with "Exposing Properly", which is the crux of this point. It's complete tosh.

No-one suggested the OP didn't learn correct exposure, just that 'shooting manually' is neither the best or only way of doing so. Which to be honest is usually the advice of the relatively inexperienced. You'll notice some of the people who say it's neither the best or only way have been teaching photography for longer than most have been practicing it.

The number of times I've had problems re-teaching someone how to expose properly because they'd blindly followed the 'shoot manual' mantra and couldn't understand why they were getting bad results is frustrating.

Correct exposure is a product of understanding metering. Manual mode is one of the ways you can choose to control your camera. They are not bound in any sort of relationship at all, there are lots of methods for controlling your exposure, and using manual will not give you better results than any of the alternatives until you understand exposure. And if you understand exposure, any of the alternatives are open to you, and sometimes using Manual will be the best option.
 
shaylou said:
I'm sorry to contradict what some have said but understanding the basic exposure triangle is the first step to bettering your photography as a beginner. Many, including myself find that using the manual mode is good way to do this. You can not understand how to work with light until you understand how to expose properly. Here are some links that will help you in a lot of ways. Shutter speed and iso are pretty easy to understand. I would suggest that you spend extra time getting a very good understanding of aperture. Spending extra time on this is well worth it in my opinion.

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/

http://www.adorama.com/alc/

:canon:
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It's kind of a chicken-and-egg thing, but you cannot use manual settings properly until you first understand exposure metering. And then when you do understand it, you realise that manual is just another way of working, a different means to the same end, and is often (even mostly) not the best way. However, if you then want to 'force' the correct thinking process by using manual, then fine, but knowledge is the key. If you use an auto mode and then apply exposure compensation, you are actually taking more manual control of the camera than blindly lining up the needles in manual mode.

Most experienced photographers tend to use aperture-priority most, often with exposure compensation applied, and manual for those times when it's important to 'set & lock' the exposure.

Another myth popular with newcomers is 'spot metering is most accurate' but that is also just another way of working. In fact, used without understanding, spot metering is almost guaranteed to deliver incorrect and inconsistent exposures.
 
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I was simple pointing out that by using full manual as a beginner is a good way to teach yourself how exposure works. In my opinion it is important to understand what adjustments effect others. Unlike Phil, I see it as a good way to learn exposure and am not trying to force feed it to the op or anyone else for that matter. Thanks for the low shot Phi, I will stand behind my work as a measurement of my qualifications and not the amount of time I have been doing it. I see a lot of "key board photographers" that have a world of knowledge but their work is stinks. There is more than one way to look at....
 
Most experienced photographers tend to use aperture-priority most, often with exposure compensation applied, and manual for those times when it's important to 'set & lock' the exposure.




I use aperture priority more than any other mode when I am shooting street photography. I am constantly changing the aperture based on the distance between the subject and the background. That leaves me little to no time to make the other exposure adjustments. When shooting these moving targets time is not on your side.

As far as learning in manual, I found that it was a very effective way of learning when I started out but there are a 100 ways to skin a cat. lol
 
some of us didnt have the benefit of auto this or that when we started out. learning how to use manual mode is as good a way as any other as it forces you to think about ALL your settings rather than rely on the camera to think for you. its not always possible to use full manual effectively if trying to shoot a certain kind of shot but where you have the opportunity to sit, compose and think about what your shooting ( landscapes and the like for instance ) then by shooting in manual you can study the effects of different DOF and shutter speed combinations while retaining the same amount of light ( same with Adjusting ISO too ) and then looking at expanded aspects such as under of over exposing by 1 or 2 stops and taking two images of the same scene at different exposures ( sky and land as an example ) to allow you to bring them together later for an evenly exposed shot.

there are many different ways to learn but it never hurts to try them out rather than just dismiss them offhand as one way being better than another
 
dean messenger said:
some of us didnt have the benefit of auto this or that when we started out. learning how to use manual mode is as good a way as any other as it forces you to think about ALL your settings rather than rely on the camera to think for you. its not always possible to use full manual effectively if trying to shoot a certain kind of shot but where you have the opportunity to sit, compose and think about what your shooting ( landscapes and the like for instance ) then by shooting in manual you can study the effects of different DOF and shutter speed combinations while retaining the same amount of light ( same with Adjusting ISO too ) and then looking at expanded aspects such as under of over exposing by 1 or 2 stops and taking two images of the same scene at different exposures ( sky and land as an example ) to allow you to bring them together later for an evenly exposed shot.

there are many different ways to learn but it never hurts to try them out rather than just dismiss them offhand as one way being better than another
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I totally agree!
 
shaylou said:
I was simple pointing out that by using full manual as a beginner is a good way to teach yourself how exposure works. In my opinion it is important to understand what adjustments effect others. Unlike Phil, I see it as a good way to learn exposure and am not trying to force feed it to the op or anyone else for that matter. Thanks for the low shot Phi, I will stand behind my work as a measurement of my qualifications and not the amount of time I have been doing it. I see a lot of "key board photographers" that have a world of knowledge but their work is stinks. There is more than one way to look at....
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Really!!:thinking:

Get a grip, there was no low shot!

It's f*** all to do with talent, but you'll note that most people who assert that Manual is the best way to learn are often still learning (not an insult, come back in 20 years to discuss). Whereas people who teach photography, write about photography and shoot professionally generally agree it's an irrelevance.

These people you're slagging off now are the same people who helped and advised you not that long ago (in the grand scheme of things), it's nice you're so grateful:confused:
 
Phil V said:
Really!!:thinking:

Get a grip, there was no low shot!

It's f*** all to do with talent, but you'll note that most people who assert that Manual is the best way to learn are often still learning (not an insult, come back in 20 years to discuss). Whereas people who teach photography, write about photography and shoot professionally generally agree it's an irrelevance.

These people you're slagging off now are the same people who helped and advised you not that long ago (in the grand scheme of things), it's nice you're so grateful:confused:
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You can sugar coat it all you want but an insult is still an insult.

I learned from you as well as many others on this site. I studied and studied and with this sites help learned a lot. I owe so much to the sites members for always helping me. I would think that would be rewarding to people like yourself. I think I have a good enough understanding on the basics to give advise and don't see why it's necessary to lash out against someone that simple and politely disagrees with you. I won't apologize for considering being grouped as a beginner an insult. I have a ton to learn but I'm far from a beginner at this point.
 
just one of a myriad of articles from Pro's and otherwise
http://www.naturephotographysimplif...why-professional-photographers-always-use-it/

sorry but think your talking utter tosh to say that those who shoot, teach or write pro think its an irrelevance.
and as for saying those who say manual is the best way to learn are still learning.. what a total crock of s***.. lol sorry but thats just a ridiiculous and totally foolish statement to make
 
shaylou said:
You can sugar coat it all you want but an insult is still an insult.

I learned from you as well as many others on this site. I studied and studied and with this sites help learned a lot. I owe so much to the sites members for always helping me. I would think that would be rewarding to people like yourself. I think I have a good enough understanding on the basics to give advise and don't see why it's necessary to lash out against someone that simple and politely disagrees with you. I won't apologize for considering being grouped as a beginner an insult. I have a ton to learn but I'm far from a beginner at this point.
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There's no insult, there's no sugar coating, there's definitely a grow up and stop taking s*** personally and making stuff personal. It's hilarious!
 
dean messenger said:
just one of a myriad of articles from Pro's and otherwise
http://www.naturephotographysimplif...why-professional-photographers-always-use-it/

sorry but think your talking utter tosh to say that those who shoot, teach or write pro think its an irrelevance.
and as for saying those who say manual is the best way to learn are still learning.. what a total crock of s***.. lol sorry but thats just a ridiiculous and totally foolish statement to make
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Dean, you should really stop believing fairy stories on the internet, it makes you look silly!
 
Phil V said:
There's no insult, there's no sugar coating, there's definitely a grow up and stop taking s*** personally and making stuff personal. It's hilarious!
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Come on Phi, this passive aggressive crap is just that. I owe you so much for all your help over the years and I won't forget that. But please remember that if someone insults me I will defend myself. Even if it's you. So if you decide to lash out against people that disagree with you then you should prepare for the worst.

I hope that you are like me and can have a disagreement with someone and be friends with them a minute later. No hard feeling.
 
Not worth getting into an argument over gents. It's just two approaches to learning at the end of the day. One method might work for an individual and another method for someone else.

For what it's worth, I side with Phil's take on things. In starting out, it seemed like manual shooting was some sort of end goal to aspire to which I think is misleading. I can see the pros, in that you're making a judgement on each variable in the exposure triangle, but I see this as almost a trial and error approach. My take on it was to absorb as much knowledge through reading, watching tutorials etc and then apply it and the starting point for that was how the metering system works and then how to expose an image accordingly. Once that sunk in a little, then the uses for manual, aperture priority, shutter priority etc, seemed obvious and they all just seem like tools that are available when needed.

Its not everybodies cup of tea, but I found Bryan Peterson's understanding exposure book a very good starting point.
 
Thanks Graham for cooling things off - I feel bad now :( I think I at first thought that if I wasn't shooting in manual mode then my shots wouldn't be good - however, after reading all the replies I really feel that's not the case. I am going to read up about light & metering because I think (having read things) that after composition this is a good place to start. At the end of the day, I want to be happy with my shot and if it's taken in auto, manual or whatever then it doesn't really matter as long as I'm happy with the shot or can see how I can improve it for the next one.
 
StewartR said:
Dean, that article really is absolute rubbish. I can think of several situations where I would want, or even need, to use manual mode, but none of the situations described in that article require it. For many of them it just makes it harder rather than easier.
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The article is poor because:
- it says pros always use manual, which is completely untrue
- it starts by making manual control sound difficult, and a high hurdle to jump - it isn't
- it implies that many creative effects are only possible in manual - not true

And you don't need an entire book to understand exposure, metering and manual camera settings. The TP tutorial linked in post #6 says it all. What you need is a sound understanding of the basics, then plenty of practise in different situations to turn theory into reality and hammer it home. It then becomes easy and instinctive.
 
I started exploring the exposure triangle on a digital bridge camera. Mine had aperture priority, shutter priority, manual iso, and much more. Although I can't say that full manual mode was of much use - aperture and shutter speed priority programs were. Even with the limitations of such a camera, I could use these to create a number of effects in my images - freezing motion, blurring motion, etc.

That is where I would suggest starting. Try using shutter speed priority to create these sort of effects in an image.

Its all about how much light that you allow to hit your sensor (or film). Aperture controls how much volume of light can pass through the lens. Shutter speed controls for how long, ISO controls how sensitive your sensor is to light. Adjust one - you need to balance the other two. I could recommend the following triangle emulator as an example of how it works:

http://www.kamerasimulator.se/eng/?page_id=2

I'm just an amateur enthusiast. I'm always on a learning curve. If I wasn't, then photography would lose my interest.

These days, I spend a lot of my time using a fully manual medium format film camera. It doesn't even have a light meter. The exposure stops are easier to understand on many film cameras - a simple shutter speed control, an aperture ring on the lens marked with stops - and with a depth of field indicator. ISO depends on the film loaded in a film back. My light meter are my eyes and grey matter. I don't always get it right, but perfection isn't my style. I also sometimes take a box camera out. One stop - that is to say, no aperture or speed controls at all. You need to find the light to match the film. These sort of experiences brings the simplicity of the triangle home. I don't think that you need a course.
 
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I think if I were teaching a beginner that had never picked up a camera before, I would probably takes PhilVs approach.

For me, it is a choice. I shoot probably 99% of my stuff in manual, as that is what I am comfortable with. It works for me, I can adjust quickly without much thought, and without taking the camera away from my eye.

No right or wrong..just personal choice.
 
I think that composition is the hardest part of photography, and therefore it's best to practice that first whilst letting all the wonderful technology in the average bridge camera sort out technicalities like focus and exposure.

I also think that manual mode is considerably easier to use on DSLRs than it is on bridge cameras or compacts.

I shoot in manual all the time - but then, the controls on my DSLR are pretty much entirely geared around doing that. On a bridge camera, this isn't the case.

I sort of slid into manual mode accidentally; I was trying to achieve a particular effect (I think it could have been narrow DOF in low light; that'd be right. On a tripod, needing a wide aperture but also to maintain a slow shutter and low ISO, no flash. All eminently doable in manual mode but neither shutter priority nor aperture priority was floating my boat) and so I read a bit more of Understanding Exposure and continued practiced taking pictures of the Christmas tree on a tripod.

My wife thought it was most amusing.
 
Phil V said:
Dean, you should really stop believing fairy stories on the internet, it makes you look silly!
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as i clearly stated its just ONE of a myriad of articles if you bother to use google. which makes your reply rather silly and petty too to take it in its full context.
and i still stand that to dismiss manual out of hand as irrelevant is a pretty p*** poor statement and makes YOU look rather silly in doing so.

wasnt so long ago there were no such things as full auto , AP or SP.. and people had no choice about how to learn how to use a camera fully manual. or are you going to just dismiss the past 100 years of photography in your arrogant statements too?

doesnt matter how much you sugar coat Shutter and aperture priority there will always be situations that arise when manual is the best option rather than ignore it and muddle along in semi auto mode
 
Mich56 said:
I have put some shots in my gallery - some were taken on auto some on aperture priority.

http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/gallery/authors/mich56.71868/
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Some nice stuff in there. You're obviously getting out and shooting which is always key.

Maybe teaching my granny to suck eggs here but what really needs to be remembered is that for any given exposure combination (i.e. combination of aperture, shutter speed and iso) it matters not a jot to the final image whether those numbers were selected entirely by the camera, partially by the camera or entirely on your own, the final image will look the same. Where the key benefits to the semi auto and manual modes come in is when you want to take charge of something (or a few things for that matter), whether that be a fast shutter speed to freeze motion, a wide aperture to isolate a subject or maybe you dial in some exposure compensation as you expect that the camera is going to underexpose a shot because there is a lot of white in the image and its going to 'fool' the meter. Just three examples there of an infinite number of possible scenarios.

To me at least, the key is then knowing what modes suit you in those circumstances and why you're using them (and there are often several right answers to the that question). Sounds complicated in some ways but once you're familiar with the way a camera meters a scene and the 'exposure triangle' it will all gel together nicely I assure you. There are some great tutorials on this site for all this stuff as well as a huge number of other great online resources and all for free.
 
Nice post there Graham, and...

pass the popcorn :)
 
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dean messenger said:
as i clearly stated its just ONE of a myriad of articles if you bother to use google. which makes your reply rather silly and petty too to take it in its full context.
and i still stand that to dismiss manual out of hand as irrelevant is a pretty p*** poor statement and makes YOU look rather silly in doing so.

wasnt so long ago there were no such things as full auto , AP or SP.. and people had no choice about how to learn how to use a camera fully manual. or are you going to just dismiss the past 100 years of photography in your arrogant statements too?

doesn't matter how much you sugar coat Shutter and aperture priority there will always be situations that arise when manual is the best option rather than ignore it and muddle along in semi auto mode
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I can use Google Dean - but I don't need to on this occasion because the premise of the search is nonsense (if I searched I could find 'proof' that man never landed on the moon or that the Royal Family are lizards). Feel free to post up some more similar links, unfortunately they'll all be the same bogus link bait. It doesn't matter how many websites you can find that'll tell you that 'all pro's use manual' you only have to read this thread, or a hundred others on this site to know it's simply not true, similarly; The Apollo missions landed on the moon and the royal family are indeed human beings.

I also learned on fully manual cameras, I was shooting professionally on medium format cameras when digital was a pipe dream, I didn't possess an auto focus body till the 21st century. Exposure modes are a complete irrelevance, they always were, and they'll continue to be so. Understanding what your meter tells you is crucial whether shooting Manual or auto. The simple act of turning the dial to Manual teaches you nothing - understanding exposure will allow you to use any mode (which you'll have to agree is the important bit).

I'm afraid you'll have to quote where I dismissed Manual 'out of hand'. I'm dismissing it in the context of the OP's question about it being necessary to use in order to be using his camera 'properly'. It's easy to get sucked into an issue without first grasping the question, I'm afraid you're looking for an argument rather than looking to help the OP.

I use Manual when it's the best option, I use AV when it's the best option and I use TV when it's the best option (even been known to use P). I have an instinctive understanding of what 18% grey looks like. Back to the OP; he would gain nothing but frustration trying to use Manual on a camera without a decent control set, he'll gain far more reading the article linked in post 6, and progressing to Manual when he's ready.

I'm not dismissing anyone as being arrogant - again you'll have to show where I did, please remember to play the ball not the man.
 
Mich56 said:
I want to move on to taking shots in manual mode - where would be the best place to start with this? I am wondering if I should maybe do an on-line course so I work through and understand all the different elements or is there one thing to grasp first that's the most important - thanks in advance for any pointers. :) (I am using a fuji X-S1 bridge camera)
Click to expand...

I think that one of the great things about digital (we are talking digital aren't we?) is that it's very low cost so as long as you know the basics of aperture, shutter and ISO personally I see nothing wrong in putting the camera in manual and shooting lots and lots of pictures and then reviewing them on your pc. Unlike with film you don't have to pay your hard earned dosh to have it developed and then wait to see the results and you don't have to make a note of your settings either as it's all in the exif so you can shoot, review and study the results and see the effect of changes very quickly.

Personally I only use manual if it's the best... or more likely the only option. I use aperture priority mostly and the most likely reason for me to choose manual mode is to keep the shutter speed higher than aperture mode wants to set it.
 
woof woof said:
I think that one of the great things about digital (we are talking digital aren't we?) is that it's very low cost so as long as you know the basics of aperture, shutter and ISO personally I see nothing wrong in putting the camera in manual and shooting lots and lots of pictures and then reviewing them on your pc. Unlike with film you don't have to pay your hard earned dosh to have it developed and then wait to see the results and you don't have to make a note of your settings either as it's all in the exif so you can shoot, review and study the results and see the effect of changes very quickly.

Personally I only use manual if it's the best... or more likely the only option. I use aperture priority mostly and the most likely reason for me to choose manual mode is to keep the shutter speed higher than aperture mode wants to set it.
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Actually there's an interesting point re learning hidden in the above:
If you shoot Manual, and your shots are incorrectly exposed when reviewing on the PC, you have no way of knowing what the light was like, so your baseline isn't set. If you're thinking exposure compensation in a semi auto mode, you can experiment with that and see what effect +1 stop or -1 stop looks like. :banana:
 
I have taught photography and at no stage did I ever suggest that people go full manual as it has little benefit for most people. IMHO what you need to do is learn what the individual controls do;

Aperture controls how much is in focus, little number, little in focus and large number lots in focus and as people progress introduce how focal length and distance from camera to subject also affect this.

Shutter speed, long shutter speed gives lots of movement and the shorter the shutter speed the less the movement until we get to the point of freezing the movement.

Once they have mastered both skills individually it is time to put them together and it is at that point that you look at the triangle including ISO and then and only then can you consider full manual however with most modern cameras we also have things like ISO priority so we can set aperture and shutter speed and let the camera do the rest.

There is however something much more important and that is reading the light and knowing what you want to be exposed in what manner ( a good knowledge of the zone system helps) i.e. what metering mode and where to meter from and how to adjust the reading to give what you want.

The biggest learning tool is the EXIF data, you can always go back and review what you have done and see what works and what does not.

I do use manual when in a studio set up because I have full control but when outside I use the tools that I have paid for.

I believe that many are drawn in to the emperors new clothes of photography that is full manual, much better to learn the controls individually and take controlled steps.

Mike
 
Phil V said:
Actually there's an interesting point re learning hidden in the above:
If you shoot Manual, and your shots are incorrectly exposed when reviewing on the PC, you have no way of knowing what the light was like, so your baseline isn't set. If you're thinking exposure compensation in a semi auto mode, you can experiment with that and see what effect +1 stop or -1 stop looks like. :banana:
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I don't see much point in taking one shot as you can't tell much from that but if you take more than one shot you can see and learn something. For example take one shot with the cursor smack in the middle of the exposure scale and then take more shots changing the aperture, shutter or ISO as you go and so causing the cursor to move to the right / left hand side in turn. Also, changing the value of one thing and then changing the value of the others to keep the cursor in the same position may help to understand the exposure triangle.

mike weeks said:
I believe that many are drawn in to the emperors new clothes of photography that is full manual, much better to learn the controls individually and take controlled steps.
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Yup. Manual mode has it's place but for me and possibly for the majority of users the semi auto modes Aperture and Shutter are probably going to be used a lot more with Manual mode probably only being used in specific circumstances.
 
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