What scam did I avoid?

[JonathanRyan]

Yesterday I went to buy a second hand car. Spec looked good online and I saw lots of pictures and talked to the dealer beforehand. Everything looked good so I took 2.5 hour train ride to the dealer's with the intention of checking it matched spec and buying it then driving home. Car was spot on - one very minor stone chip I didn't expect but everything else checked out - drove beautifully. So the car was very nearly perfect and a good price but some things about the dealer didn't quite add up for me.

The killer was when he mentioned that the v5 had been lost but they could transfer ownership to me no problem. With a heavy heart, I thanked them for their time, walked to the station and got a long train ride home.

The question isn't "was I right to walk out?" That was my decision based on several factors and for me it was the right one. But I'm really interested to know what could they have been up to. Best I can guess is that it would be possible to sell a stolen car by swapping the plates from a vehicle that had a clean HPI status - but I bet there are more scams.

TL;DR: dealer tried to sell me expensive car without a v5 - what danger was I in?

ETA: I did a "full" HPI check on the vehicle - but that was based on the reg - not the VIN and for obvious reasons not the v5 code

 

[Tringa]

You have probably seen this already but I thought this part was interesting -

You should then ask the seller/registered keeper to apply for the replacement log-book online so that you don’t have to buy a car without a logbook.

The seller will then have to pay £25 and can pay by credit or debit card. The new DVLA duplicate log book service can be accessed here.

Before they start the process they will require:

• Vehicle registration number (VRM)
• VIN/chassis number of the vehicle
• Surname and Postcode registered on the log book

For security purposes and to ensure the seller owns the vehicle, if they fail to enter the correct information, the DVLA will refuse to issue a new logbook.

from here - https://www.carguide.co.uk/buy-a-car/buying-a-car-without-a-logbook/

Given the above it does seem strange that the dealer would not apply for a duplicate log book.

Dave

 

[Box Brownie]

Yesterday I went to buy a second hand car. Spec looked good online and I saw lots of pictures and talked to the dealer beforehand. Everything looked good so I took 2.5 hour train ride to the dealer's with the intention of checking it matched spec and buying it then driving home. Car was spot on - one very minor stone chip I didn't expect but everything else checked out - drove beautifully. So the car was very nearly perfect and a good price but some things about the dealer didn't quite add up for me.

The killer was when he mentioned that the v5 had been lost but they could transfer ownership to me no problem. With a heavy heart, I thanked them for their time, walked to the station and got a long train ride home.

The question isn't "was I right to walk out?" That was my decision based on several factors and for me it was the right one. But I'm really interested to know what could they have been up to. Best I can guess is that it would be possible to sell a stolen car by swapping the plates from a vehicle that had a clean HPI status - but I bet there are more scams.

TL;DR: dealer tried to sell me expensive car without a v5 - what danger was I in?

ETA: I did a "full" HPI check on the vehicle - but that was based on the reg - not the VIN and for obvious reasons not the v5 code

I certainly recall asking and being shown the V5 when I bought my car from a large franchise dealer once I had struck the deal. It was the original not a copy.

You have probably seen this already but I thought this part was interesting -

You should then ask the seller/registered keeper to apply for the replacement log-book online so that you don’t have to buy a car without a logbook.

The seller will then have to pay £25 and can pay by credit or debit card. The new DVLA duplicate log book service can be accessed here.

Before they start the process they will require:

• Vehicle registration number (VRM)
• VIN/chassis number of the vehicle
• Surname and Postcode registered on the log book

For security purposes and to ensure the seller owns the vehicle, if they fail to enter the correct information, the DVLA will refuse to issue a new logbook.

from here - https://www.carguide.co.uk/buy-a-car/buying-a-car-without-a-logbook/

Given the above it does seem strange that the dealer would not apply for a duplicate log book.

Dave

It does surprise me, if without explanation, a dealer does not already have the copy as necessary of the V5.

@JonathanRyan
If you so to speak saw red flags when at the dealer, I wonder what a Google of the dealer will show? Have they got "form' for selling wrong 'uns ? If so perhaps let the local Trading Standards know to add to the tally of suspicious activities???

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

Advice from family member who's a traffic copper: "Never buy a used car without having sight of the V5 and checking the VIN against that. If they don't match, your insurance will be invalid, on top of everything else!"

It would be unfortunate to have to discuss the matter with the coppers in the layby...

 

[srichards]

Yesterday I went to buy a second hand car. Spec looked good online and I saw lots of pictures and talked to the dealer beforehand. Everything looked good so I took 2.5 hour train ride to the dealer's with the intention of checking it matched spec and buying it then driving home. Car was spot on - one very minor stone chip I didn't expect but everything else checked out - drove beautifully. So the car was very nearly perfect and a good price but some things about the dealer didn't quite add up for me.

The killer was when he mentioned that the v5 had been lost but they could transfer ownership to me no problem. With a heavy heart, I thanked them for their time, walked to the station and got a long train ride home.

The question isn't "was I right to walk out?" That was my decision based on several factors and for me it was the right one. But I'm really interested to know what could they have been up to. Best I can guess is that it would be possible to sell a stolen car by swapping the plates from a vehicle that had a clean HPI status - but I bet there are more scams.

TL;DR: dealer tried to sell me expensive car without a v5 - what danger was I in?

ETA: I did a "full" HPI check on the vehicle - but that was based on the reg - not the VIN and for obvious reasons not the v5 code

I didn't see the V5 when I bought mine. Just the new keeper slip. I then discovered that was because they had lied about the number of previous owners.

V5 will also show any log book loans. I think it also shows other information like write offs, if it's an import and other things which might end up being an issue. It will also show if the previous owner was a rental company. That's another thing dealers like to hide.

I'd be curious to know which dealer it was. Feel free to PM with their name and location

 

[Deleted member 95743]

Question:

Is a car dealer classed as being a registered keeper of the vehicle?

 

[bass_junkie83]

There seems to be a lot more written off cars being put back on the road and not being properly declared these days, Not saying that is the case with the car you saw but you are definitely right to play it safe.

For example...




EDIT: https://autoauctions.io/ is good for searching Vin numbers, it will flag up issues without needing to pay, all be it a fairly vague description. But still better than other "free" sites.

 

[Box Brownie]

Question:

Is a car dealer classed as being a registered keeper of the vehicle?

AFAIK no, when I put my car in PX I made sure to complete the V5 section where if IIRC declared it had been sold to a dealer..... and they have a special arrangements with DVLA possibly akin to holding the car in 'escrow'. In other words 'they' don't become the registered keeper.

 

[JonathanRyan]

I certainly recall asking and being shown the V5 when I bought my car from a large franchise dealer once I had struck the deal. It was the original not a copy.

It does surprise me, if without explanation, a dealer does not already have the copy as necessary of the V5.

@JonathanRyan
If you so to speak saw red flags when at the dealer, I wonder what a Google of the dealer will show? Have they got "form' for selling wrong 'uns ? If so perhaps let the local Trading Standards know to add to the tally of suspicious activities???

On FB they have 4 reviews which are mixed - couple of people unhappy with minor things (no Bluetooth when they expected it etc). On Autotrader far more reviews with a score of 4.8 ish.

They told me that if they got a v5 issued it would add them as an owner which would affect value. I don't believe this is true and one of the main reasons I walked (if they told me one thing I knew wasn't true, what else did I not spot?)

HPI check showed that a vehicle with that reg had not been written off or stolen and only had dealer finance on it - but I became nervous that the Vin might say otherwise. I decided to walk before I checked that.

 

[Box Brownie]

On FB they have 4 reviews which are mixed - couple of people unhappy with minor things (no Bluetooth when they expected it etc). On Autotrader far more reviews with a score of 4.8 ish.

They told me that if they got a v5 issued it would add them as an owner which would affect value. I don't believe this is true and one of the main reasons I walked (if they told me one thing I knew wasn't true, what else did I not spot?)

HPI check showed that a vehicle with that reg had not been written off or stolen and only had dealer finance on it - but I became nervous that the Vin might say otherwise. I decided to walk before I checked that.

So by inference they bought a car without a V5......or they mislaid it since buying it in!

Is the former actually very fishy (illegal?) or a permitted dealer process? If the latter, I would have thought there would be a process between the dealer & DVLA to mitigate the process?

Either way in your shoes I would have done the same.

 

[Deleted member 95743]

According to Car dealer magazine car dealers won't necessarily have a V5C document.

 

[srichards]

Taking a car into the trade doesn't add an owner. If they don't know that then they're failing at page 1. Could be pretending to be a private sale or it's on sale or return and they're hiding that fact. Either way it's suspicious.

 

[Box Brownie]

According to Car dealer magazine car dealers won't necessarily have a V5C document.

View attachment 364224

But as the seller, private or to a dealer in PX, IIRC you don't send the V5 to DVLA but only the section/tear off part that is your appropriate declaration of sold or traded in! You hand the rest to the buyer/dealer.

If a dealer takes a PX without proof of registered keeper as part of the proof that the PXer is the legal owner.....who is to say the car is properly documented for sale???

 

[JonathanRyan]

So by inference they bought a car without a V5......or they mislaid it since buying it in!

Is the former actually very fishy (illegal?) or a permitted dealer process?

As it happens I looked this up while mulling the purchase over There's no law that says you can't buy a car without a V5. There are plenty of websites that tell you that you're an idiot if you do - which means if there was a car that had somehow lost it's V5 (for example a probate sale with lost docs) it's most likely to end up at an auction and from there find its way to a dealer. I would expect that a decent dealer at this point would pay £25 and wait and get a duplicate V5 before selling. It's annoying and expensive to wait but I think most reputable dealers would do this.

What's very hard is taxing a vehicle without a V5 and since several years ago, you cannot buy a used car with tax already on it. So I would certainly have been untaxed on the way home - all the way through the ANPR round Dartford There's an argument that untaxed vehicles are also uninsured and insurers hate your driving uninsured vehicles.

Needless to say, the price was good - a vehicle from a dealer I trust will cost me about 5% more.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

Two pages that are worth checking out...

Check a used vehicle you’re buying

Check registration, MOT, tax, vehicle identification number and other details to help make sure a used car is not stolen or unsafe

www.gov.uk

Vehicle insurance

Rules on what motor insurance you need, what to do if you're in an accident, insurance for driving abroad, penalties for uninsured vehicles and drivers.

www.gov.uk