What looks like another piece of poorly thought out legislation

[Tringa]

Companies (with 250 or more employees) have to publish the difference in the pay between male and female workers - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42580194

Male and female employees, doing the same job, should obviously be paid the same but what is the point of requiring companies to publishing information based on figures comparing the pay all male workers with all female workers?

Dave

 

[Meeten]

Easyjet had come out poorly in this, but it's not difficult to see why if you look at the details ....

Like you say, poorly thought out legislation.

 

[munch]

Of the staff I am responsible for my highest paid employee is female.

 

[nilagin]

Why is it poorly thought out legislation? If you are a woman after a job, surely you want to know you will be paid the same as men doing the same job.

 

[Meeten]

Does an air hostess expect to be paid the same as a male airline pilot?

If there are categories that you can dissect into then it is useful. However, this is I'll thought legislation

 

[Tringa]

surely you want to know you will be paid the same as men doing the same job.

I agree, but this requirement does not do that. It looks at the pay of all male employees compared to that of all female employees. It says nothing about specific jobs.

Dave

 

[Nod]

The biggest inequality I can think of is football (as in soccer). I wonder how many times more male players get paid than female players do...

 

[nilagin]

The biggest inequality I can think of is football (as in soccer). I wonder how many times more male players get paid than female players do...

But all the players on a team don't receive the same pay anyway. Plus how many teams have men and women combined. As far as I am aware they play in separate teams.

 

[Nod]

Same job, doing the same thing.

 

[Phil V]

Does an air hostess expect to be paid the same as a male airline pilot?

...

I know you’re not this stupid, but I’m fairly certain there are plenty of male cabin crew and female pilots.

The fact you posted this just proves gender equality has a long way to go for some people.

 

[Marc]

Same job, doing the same thing.

Not at all. Do you think the CEO of a company with a turnover of £1m should earn the same as a CEO of a company with a turnover of £3bn?

 

[Nod]

It's exactly the same job - kicking a ball around for 90 minutes. Bigger audience for the men, I'll agree but the job is the same for both sexes.

 

[Marc]

It's exactly the same job - kicking a ball around for 90 minutes. Bigger audience for the men, I'll agree but the job is the same for both sexes.

Ok, then do you think that someone who play for Accrington Stanley should get the same pay as someone who plays for Manchester United? After all, they both kick a ball around for 90 minutes. Do you think an actor in a low budget independent film should get the same pay as one in a blockbuster tat grosses £100m? After all, they both act.

 

[Phil V]

Same job, doing the same thing.

Not at all.
A premiership star is worth a ton more than a conference plodder. The value is based on attractiveness to TV and to a lesser extent live fans.
I can go watch Donny Belles for a tenner and they never get on telly. How does that compare to a £80 seat at Man City with millions watching in TV?

 

[nilagin]

Same job, doing the same thing.

But on the likelihood that no two male players in the same team are on the same pay, it's not the same. If all the male players earnt the same amount it would be different.

 

[Nod]

Ok, then do you think that someone who play for Accrington Stanley should get the same pay as someone who plays for Manchester United? After all, they both kick a ball around for 90 minutes. Do you think an actor in a low budget independent film should get the same pay as one in a blockbuster tat grosses £100m? After all, they both act.

I think that both sets are hugely overpaid - at least the actors of both sexes are on approximately the same wage. TBH, I'm with Lily Allen and assorted earlier proposers that football be banned!

 

[Marc]

I think that both sets are hugely overpaid - at least the actors of both sexes are on approximately the same wage. TBH, I'm with Lily Allen and assorted earlier proposers that football be banned!

But that's not what this is about. You're comparing apples and pears and then saying that apples should be banned because you don't like them.

 

[rick448]

Same job in the same company in most cases should be the same pay. Sport / TV etc are different as people rarely do exactly the sad and often negotiate their own deals. In my experience (fire and rescue) and now aviation at an international airport, all staff in the same role receive the exact same pay. It’s ridiculous comparing males v females on salary only irrespective of roles / skills and responsibilities. Though I can’t say I’m surprised by this, most legislation appears to be written by people who don’t live in the real world, and the process of creating it goes through channels of the same type of people, if not even more cosseted.

 

[rick448]

I think that both sets are hugely overpaid - at least the actors of both sexes are on approximately the same wage. TBH, I'm with Lily Allen and assorted earlier proposers that football be banned!

Why ban football?? Does the taxpayer pay for it? It’s a concious decision to watch it or pay towards it. When people refuse to pay ticket prices or subscribe to Sky et al then the salaries will drop. Until then why wouldn’t players make hay? I agree the salaries are obscene but it’s not costing me anything so fair do’s to them. It’s the same for many “professions “ I’m afraid. As with most things it’s supply and demand that drives the price.

 

[nilagin]

I think that both sets are hugely overpaid - at least the actors of both sexes are on approximately the same wage.

And yet actresses complain about the pay gap.

 

[john.margetts]

Ok, then do you think that someone who play for Accrington Stanley should get the same pay as someone who plays for Manchester United? After all, they both kick a ball around for 90 minutes. Do you think an actor in a low budget independent film should get the same pay as one in a blockbuster tat grosses £100m? After all, they both act.

Yes, I do. And neither should get very much.

 

[Marc]

Yes, I do. And neither should get very much.

So you think the football club owners should get all the money?

 

[cambsno]

What a compete waste of time! There are many factors behind pay and sex (in my experience is not one of them).

In a previous job i recruited 5 sales people, 2 women and 3 men. The men got paid more than the women... why? Because they negotiated it! It was a sales role and starting point was £25k although we would go to £30k for the right person. First one was an internal recruit and he actually got less than everyone else as he had limited experience but within 12 months was at the top end, on £30k as he was the highest performer. We offered another guy 25k but he would only accept on 27k while another demanded 30k (and had the experience we were looking for). The two women accepted £25k. The amounts they got paid was purely on experience and what we needed to pay to get them.

Over the years I have recruited many people and always decided on salary based on those factors, experience, do they have the skills to succeed and their negotiating power. Like someone said above about footballers, often people would not be on the same pay as they al had different skills and experience. Even for a basic admin role, you have people of different abilities and if you identify someone you really want you will push the boat out that bit more.

What is equal pay? Famously female tennis players campaigned for years about men getting more, but men play far more games and are normally more entertaining.

 

[cambsno]

Yes, I do. And neither should get very much.

I am guessing that the busker in town should also get the same as Ed Sheeran or Paul McCartney? Why should Steve McCurry or David Bailey get paid more than me or anyone else on here?

 

[john.margetts]

I am guessing that the busker in town should also get the same as Ed Sheeran or Paul McCartney? Why should Steve McCurry or David Bailey get paid more than me or anyone else on here?

I would pay people according to their contribution. Bin men contribute massively more than footballers and so should be paid massively more. Nurses ditto. And teachers.

 

[nilagin]

I would pay people according to their contribution. Bin men contribute massively more than footballers and so should be paid massively more. Nurses ditto. And teachers.

I can't imagine many people paying to go and watch someone empty the bins.

 

[gman]

Companies (with 250 or more employees) have to publish the difference in the pay between male and female workers - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42580194

Male and female employees, doing the same job, should obviously be paid the same but what is the point of requiring companies to publishing information based on figures comparing the pay all male workers with all female workers?

Dave

Initially it does seem pretty pointless and as far as comparing actual pay it is due to the broad brush being used. But it does perhaps provide an indication which gender is commanding the higher paid jobs, but this doesn't necessarily prove discrimination is the reason.

I'm also guessing that other benefits are not taken into account such as commission, bonuses, car allowances, amount of paid annual leave, additional non statutory paid maternity leave etc.

Personally, I think the legislation will probably only serve to fuel knee jerk reactions from feminist groups and the usual media outlets. Something more comprehensive and specific is required to be useful and less potentially inflammatory.

I also don't see why it only has to be companies with over 250 employees. Why not all companies? Equality laws apply to everyone surely? Regardless of size, it's a five minute calculation unless the company is using a very, very, very bad payroll system.

 

[Marc]

I would pay people according to their contribution. Bin men contribute massively more than footballers and so should be paid massively more. Nurses ditto. And teachers.

Footballers' skills contribute millions to the people who pay their wages. Those are the people who own the clubs. You seem to be confused as to the difference between private businesses and the public purse. As I said above, if footballers were to be paid what you think they're worth, where do you think that excess money will then go?

 

[rick448]

Footballers' skills contribute millions to the people who pay their wages. Those are the people who own the clubs. You seem to be confused as to the difference between private businesses and the public purse. As I said above, if footballers were to be paid what you think they're worth, where do you think that excess money will then go?

Absolutely this, OK, lets pay Doctors, Nurses, Teachers etc. the same wage as premiership footballers, I feel there may be a problem in funding that somehow. Maybe if we put the base rate tax up to 99% we may get somewhere near 25% of the way there, just before the country goes bankrupt.

 

[viv1969]

I think that both sets are hugely overpaid - at least the actors of both sexes are on approximately the same wage. TBH, I'm with Lily Allen and assorted earlier proposers that football be banned!

Not even remotely.

 

[sphexx]

Not sure why so many mentions of male and female footballers. It’s employees of a single company of 250 or more. Are there any companies that employ male and female footballers? Are footballers employees? Do football clubs employ lots of females in other jobs?

 

[Phil V]

Not sure why so many mentions of male and female footballers. ...

Maybe it’s just because someone’s simply clueless.

Either way, it’s got b****r all to do with football. The gender pay gap is fairly obviously real, but there’s no easy solution because there’s no simple question.

 

[cambsno]

I would pay people according to their contribution. Bin men contribute massively more than footballers and so should be paid massively more. Nurses ditto. And teachers.

And how do you work out who is more important? While a nurse does a great job, if there are no bandages or drugs they cannot do a great job, so that brings in the people who make these things, plus the drivers who get them there, who need roads so the people building them are all important. Arguably farmers and the people working at the water companies are the most important as we all die without that? Where does it end?

 

[Dave *]

I know you’re not this stupid, but I’m fairly certain there are plenty of male cabin crew and female pilots.

Phil, the Easyjet example is explained in the link in the OP.

At Easyjet, for example, 6% of its UK pilots are women - a role which pays £92,400 a year on average - whereas 69% of lower-paid cabin crew are women, with an average annual salary of £24,800.

There are very few female pilots and a lot more female cabin crew.

 

[cambsno]

Phil, the Easyjet example is explained in the link in the OP.



There are very few female pilots and a lot more female cabin crew.

Also, what is important to consider is that being a pilot for example has been a male dominated sector. So there is every chance that male pilots on average earn more as they have more experience and hours under their belts. Which is why these type of stats don't tell the whole story, it does not mean that company is sexist or pays women less. The only way you can do that is to look at a male and female pilot on similar hours/experience and see what they are being paid.

 

[rick448]

Also, what is important to consider is that being a pilot for example has been a male dominated sector. So there is every chance that male pilots on average earn more as they have more experience and hours under their belts. Which is why these type of stats don't tell the whole story, it does not mean that company is sexist or pays women less. The only way you can do that is to look at a male and female pilot on similar hours/experience and see what they are being paid.[/QUOTE]

I'd wager a large amount they are paid the same... but where is the news story in that? Typical short sighted news story borne out by short sighted knee jerk legislation.

 

[nilagin]

Also, what is important to consider is that being a pilot for example has been a male dominated sector. So there is every chance that male pilots on average earn more as they have more experience and hours under their belts. Which is why these type of stats don't tell the whole story, it does not mean that company is sexist or pays women less. The only way you can do that is to look at a male and female pilot on similar hours/experience and see what they are being paid.

The way I would look at it is if they have enough hours experience to be an airline pilot then both sexes should be on the same money. Extra hours or years experience don't mean a thing they are doing the exact same job. If someone has better qualifications and allows them to do more in the job then yes they can be on more money.

 

[cambsno]

The way I would look at it is if they have enough hours experience to be an airline pilot then both sexes should be on the same money. Extra hours or years experience don't mean a thing they are doing the exact same job. If someone has better qualifications and allows them to do more in the job then yes they can be on more money.

It does in airline terms as well as type of aircraft. Of course new pilots are safe and well trained and do all sorts of scenarios but there is no substitute for experience. The more hours you have the more varied conditions you have flown in and like anything, the more times you do something the better you get. It also matters on the types of aircraft you fly, generally you earn more on large jets than small ones and both earn more than propeller aircraft. So you simply cannot in the case of pilots simply compare salaries and I guess this is true in many jobs.

I would argue that once you have been doing a job for a while qualifications become less important to experience. Qualifications are a gateway in, keeping to aircraft why would a pilot with a PhD be worth more than one with a BA?

 

[gman]

Extra hours or years experience don't mean a thing they are doing the exact same job. If someone has better qualifications and allows them to do more in the job then yes they can be on more money.

What about two mechanics both doing exactly the same job but one with two years experience and one with twenty years experience? Surely from a general and broad point of view you would expect the latter to be able to diagnose and repair quicker and to a more reliable standard of workmanship?

Taking an airline pilot for example, a more experienced pilot may be able to handle freak weather conditions better, operate under pressure better in emergencies etc.

Then there's also the loyalty factor to consider if the experience has been gained with the same company.

 

[rick448]

All of these arguments are subjective, a pilot may have flown for 30 years and never have experienced freak weather, whereas another may experience it on their first day, that is why the training covers this. It is no good saying, well I crashed the aircraft because I had never experienced turbulence like that before. This thread has gone completely off the initial scope, which I think was to highlight the fact that saying women earn less than men on the whole is unfair. Well to me it is quite simple....

• If either a woman or man earns more money than the other when carrying out the same role with equal levels of competence, that is unfair
• If a woman or man is not allowed the same development opportunities because of their gender, then this is unfair (lets not get into the other equality strands in this thread pleeeaaase)
• If a woman or man is overlooked for promotion because of their gender, this is unfair
• If a woman or man is excluded from a job opportunity this is unfair

There are probably many more I could go into, but it's bedtime for me now. But i think you can see the pattern.

Without having read this in detail, I'd say most of it is covered in here.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1975/65/pdfs/ukpga_19750065_en.pdf