What happened when Canon changed to EF mount in 1987?

[Cuh5]

Hi. I'm starting to think about upgrading to full frame. I don't feel obliged to stick with Nikon. I've seen that Canon do nice lenses that Nikon don't have equivalents for, and vice versa.

I've read that Canon change their lens mount system every so often. Can anyone tell me what happened when Canon switched to the current EF mount in 1987. Did that mean that anyone who had bought into Canon just before 1987 suddenly was stuck with cameras and lenses that were no longer current? Was it really as rapid and unexpected as that or was there more to it?

I'm the kind of equipment junkie that likes to have up to date gear. It's a bit scary to think that if I go for Canon then at some point they will update their mount and the newest lenses won't be available to me.

 

[RichardTaylor]

The older lenses still worked on the current bodies, but not the new bodies.
Pentax did the same thing a few years earlier, from screw mount to bayonet mount.
I did not find it a problem using screw mountlenses for at least 20 years when I switched to Canon.
Personally not having the latest and greatest body/lens doesn't worry me (It has been 5 years since my last camera body purchase and 4 years since my last lens purchase).

 

[pooley]

It was a bit of a strange one for canon when they changed. I'm sure there were reasons which I'm not aware of, but the fact is other manufacturers managed to switch from manual focus systems to autofocus whilst retaining the same mount.

When canon changed their mount from the manual focus 'FD' mount to the autofocus 'EF' mount, autofocus was still very much in its infancy, and was not at all widely used by pro's. It was seen as a brand new system for the new EOS cameras, and everybody new that you were buying into new systems. Speaking very broadly (I'm sure people can post exceptions) amateurs didn't then have the kind of kit they do now, and as EOS was a amateur system at the start there wasn't that much of an issue.

It did change once the EOS 1 became available, with the first really usable AF system, and a lot of sports pro's had to make a significant choice over their next upgrade which did cause several grumbles. However, canon were fortunate in that their early AF system was far superior to Nikons, and they found that not only did they retain their canon fans, a lot of nikon shooters moved to the new EOS system as well - I was one of them!

Nowadays though, I wouldn't expect any of the major manufacturers to change their mount for their normal system - there is just too much investment to make it viable.

What you will have to consider is changing format - with the likes of M43 coming to the fore, new mounts can develop, but like Nikon have shown with their '1' system, and canon with the ef-m mount - keeping compatability is still seen as important

In a nutshell - if you are thinkiong of going full frame just choose the kit that suits you. It is very unlikely that a mount change will happen.

 

[StewartR]

It is very unlikely that a mount change will happen.

Exactly.

One interesting aspect of the EOS system, which is easily overlooked, is that Canon seemed to get most of the important decisions right at the time. They saw what a fully electronic system needed to do, and implemented it, and the proof of the pudding is this: every EF lens manufactured since 1987 will offer 100% functionality with every EOS camera manufactured since 1987. I don't think any other manufacturer can say that.

 

[Willid1]

Exactly.

One interesting aspect of the EOS system, which is easily overlooked, is that Canon seemed to get most of the important decisions right at the time. They saw what a fully electronic system needed to do, and implemented it, and the proof of the pudding is this: every EF lens manufactured since 1987 will offer 100% functionality with every EOS camera manufactured since 1987. I don't think any other manufacturer can say that.

Nikon on the other hand soldiered on with their legacy mount on the introduction of autofocus and ended up with some bodies that would not would work with some lenses and visa versa. Not sure where they are with this now, but as Stewart says Canons move seems very well thought out now.

David

 

[Phil V]

As others have said, Canon took the gamble that rather than trying to shoehorn new technology into legacy mounts, it'd make sense to create a totally new mount that would be able to handle anything that the future could throw at it.

So whereas, Nikon (and others) are stuck with a 2 tier system where 'all lenses fit all cameras' but with massive caveats regarding functionality. Canon were able to design a brand new system that offered the best AF system on the market for about 20 years.

That's not brand loyalty btw, its just how it was. Nikon have eventually caught up with the AF system (some would say surpassed) but there are still issues with certain lenses that'll fit but not 'work'.

Canon shot their purity down a little with the introduction of the EFS mount, which allows lenses with elements that go deeper into the camera body and are only suitable for APS digital cameras, but all manufacturers have similar issues with croppers like this.

 

[Alastair]

Sometimes step changes are needed to advance the technology, particularly if your legacy technology isn't adaptable to modern advance. I don't think Canon are any more likely than Nikon to change their proprietary mounts in the future.

Although, that doesn't stop manufacturers running models with different mounts side-by-side (Canon, Sony and Nikon are all currently running two mount systems with varying cross-compatibility across different product ranges). And I can't quite believe that the rumoured Canon medium format system will retain the EF mount, even if it is suggested that it will retain the EOS branding.

 

[Digitalize]

Of all the things I'd be worrying about, this is not one of them.

 

[magicolor1]

I've read that Canon change their lens mount system every so often.

That's an interesting statement! As far as I'm aware, Canon has only changed SLR mounts once when they went from FD to EF in 1987. I suppose you could add the EF-S mount although that's just a development of EF for non-full-frame cameras. There's no suggestion that they'll do it again, although that's up to them, and as others have said, all EF lenses will work with all Canon SLRs made since 1987.

Nikon on the other hand have made subtle changes to their lens mounts many times over the years which has resulted in a lot of confusion over which lenses will work with what bodies.

 

[heidfirst]

Canon shot their purity down a little with the introduction of the EFS mount, which allows lenses with elements that go deeper into the camera body and are only suitable for APS digital cameras, but all manufacturers have similar issues with croppers like this.

That's not true for Minolta AF/Sony A-mount or Nikon & it shouldn't be for Pentax (if they develop a FF body).

 

[freecom2]

That's not true for Minolta AF/Sony A-mount or Nikon & it shouldn't be for Pentax (if they develop a FF body).

The Nikon DX line of lenses is definitely comparable to the EF-S line - crop only.

 

[PaulButler]

The Nikon DX line of lenses is definitely comparable to the EF-S line - crop only.

Yeah, sort of ... I think I'm right in that you cannot mount or use some efs lenses of Canon FF cameras as the rear elements damages the mirror. You can mount all DX lenses on nikon Fx bodies and either the camera will go into DX mode, or if you've overridden that option then you may get some vignetting. The mount is identical on the DX lenses to the FX lenses, it just (usually) has a smaller image circle.

 

[LongLensPhotography]

Not right now, but if mirrorless become the norm in 5-10 years you could expect smaller (and cheaper to make) glass to come out. New materials are also pushing the research the same direction. It will shake up the whole market (not just Canon) when it comes. I am honestly not looking forward to that day with my kit.

To be honest sony is already doing it. An E mount dSLR... A mount is getting a chop soon? I would be selling mine today personally.

 

[woof woof]

To be honest sony is already doing it. An E mount dSLR... A mount is getting a chop soon? I would be selling mine today personally.

Can't you use A mount on E via an adapter?

I expect other manufacturers will do the same, just as Canon do with their mirrorless.

 

[heidfirst]

The Nikon DX line of lenses is definitely comparable to the EF-S line - crop only.

No, it's not. You can use Nikon DX lenses on FF bodies (same as Sony DT lenses on FF bodies). Sure in most cases you'll only get an APS-C image circle but some APS-C lenses have an image circle that is pretty much nearly FF.

On the other hand afaik EF-S lenses won't fit Canon FF bodies because they intrude into the body & interfere with the mirror.

 

[heidfirst]

Can't you use A mount on E via an adapter?.

yes, you can - in fact there are 2 different adapters (1 incl. phase detect AF).
There is no sign of Sony discontinuing A-mount in the short term - they've just brought out a new A-mount Zeiss 50mm!

 

[Phil V]

There's a lot of pointscoring on this thread taking over from genuine information, which is a bit sad really.

For all those other camera systems, the fact is, you couldn't pick up a lens from 1982, bolt it onto their cheapest camera today and have a fully functional camera, that does all it was designed to. Nor could you get a lens from today, fit it to a camera from 1982 and have a fully functioning...

Whether the Canon or Nikon, Minolta, Olympus, Pentax approach is right is irrelevant to the original point of the thread, which is the risk of investing in gear that'll become obsolete.

The fact is that's no more likely to happen with a Canon today than any other manufacturer, but it'll definitely happen to a certain degree over time, it's part of the price of progress (for all manufacturers).

Have a watch of Bladerunner, androids and flying cars and TV's with massive screens (CRT screens!), only set 47 years on from it's release in 1982. It's impossible to predict the future.

I don't even think about my lens lineup for a switch to FF. Because I need my lenses to do a job today, it's pointless working round the wrong focal lengths now to save me the hassle of replacing lenses later :nuts:

 

[LongLensPhotography]

Can't you use A mount on E via an adapter?

I expect other manufacturers will do the same, just as Canon do with their mirrorless.

Of course you can, but even presuming 100% functionality, why would anyone buy an equivalent A-lens instead of smaller, cheaper and sharper E-lens?
I suppose at least you can use it, unlike FD.

 

[Phil V]

Of course you can, but even presuming 100% functionality, why would anyone buy an equivalent A-lens instead of smaller, cheaper and sharper E-lens?
I suppose at least you can use it, unlike FD.

Or MD mount lenses?

 

[Moreorless]

I'm the kind of equipment junkie that likes to have up to date gear. It's a bit scary to think that if I go for Canon then at some point they will update their mount and the newest lenses won't be available to me.

This was a rather different situation than dropping a mount today though. Today a mount your invested in dying means you potentially miss out on advances in image quality and autofocus, FD lenses on the other hand were never going to AF while image quality was still dependant on advances in film which could just as well be used on an FD camera.

Plus of course Canon still released FD mount cameras for several years after introducing EOS.

 

[Thrash]

I'm the kind of equipment junkie that likes to have up to date gear. It's a bit scary to think that if I go for Canon then at some point they will update their mount and the newest lenses won't be available to me.

You can say the same about any technology. If I buy a MacBook tomorrow, the latest one will be out at some point, if I buy a smartphone a new one will be released with the latest and greatest technology in less than a year; its just what happens with technology.

Technology does evolve and very quickly, I think cameras evolve slower with new models exhibiting better low light performance and I certainly wouldnt be worried about lens mounts; I cant see them changing anytime soon. Canon dont change their lens mount every so often, they changed to incorporate in lens auto-focus, I dont see any new technology which will result in a change of lens mount, I cant think of any new technology which could come out which will result in it either. EF mount has been going for 26 years!
In my opinion Canon made the best choice for consumers, their AF speed was better than Nikon so professionals chose Canon and have since had no reason to change.

One of the reasons I got annoyed with Nikon is because their low-end DSLRS dont support AF-D lenses, if you want a body which does you have to go for older technology or spend a lot; not something a lot of amateur-hobbyists can do - Canon second-hand lenses can be pretty cheap and you know they autofocus with pretty much any body.

 

[heidfirst]

their AF speed was better than Nikon so professionals chose Canon and have since had no reason to change.

back in the day Canon went to all the big newspapers etc. & offered to lend them a pile of kit f.o.c. - Nikon wouldn't ...

 

[DemiLion]

back in the day Canon went to all the big newspapers etc. & offered to lend them a pile of kit f.o.c. - Nikon wouldn't ...

Ever heard of 'Back to Black'?

 

[s162216]

Pentax did the same thing a few years earlier, from screw mount to bayonet mount.

But at least unlike Canon, Pentax made their previous screw mount M42 lenses entirely compatible (minus the aperture readout for SMC Takumars) with their bayonet K-mount cameras as just a straight adapter can be used which doesn't have any additional lens elements in it (and doesn't act like a short TC).

My uncle to this day remains annoyed at Canon as in ~1983 he brought a then top of the (consumer) line Canon A-1, at which time Canon had an advertising line which went something like "this camera can be used with any Canon lens" (and basically showed off the vast range of FD mount lenses)... 4 years later they switched to the EF mount, he was not amused.

 

[Phil V]

But at least unlike Canon, Pentax made their previous screw mount M42 lenses entirely compatible (minus the aperture readout for SMC Takumars) with their bayonet K-mount cameras as just a straight adapter can be used which doesn't have any additional lens elements in it (and doesn't act like a short TC).

My uncle to this day remains annoyed at Canon as in ~1983 he brought a then top of the (consumer) line Canon A-1, at which time Canon had an advertising line which went something like "this camera can be used with any Canon lens" (and basically showed off the vast range of FD mount lenses)... 4 years later they switched to the EF mount, he was not amused.

I've used a screw mount lens on a K mount adaptor on a Pentax AF body, it's exactly the same experience it would be if I put it on a Canon DSLR ie An exercise in futility. Just because something is possible doesn't mean it's advisable or recommended. A bit like using a 10 year old printer n a new PC, you'll have a nightmare finding drivers, and you end up with a 2nd rate printing job that would have been better and cheaper if you just replaced the printer.

Canon took a gamble and upset a lot of people, but the long term benefit was worth it. Anyone nowadays looking at 'old' lenses isn't even looking at pre 2000. And on that score, there's as much (if not more) confusion with any manufacturer as there is with Canon.

 

[Musicman]

That's an interesting statement! As far as I'm aware, Canon has only changed SLR mounts once when they went from FD to EF in 1987.

Well, if we're being strictly accurate, Canon have had four 35mm SLR mounts over the last 50 years

R Mount: 1959-64
FL mount: 1964-71
FD mount: 1971-87
EF mount: 1987 to today

There was some degree of backward compatibility between R and FL/FD mount; some R lenses worked on FL and FD bodies and others didn't - mostly due to issues of the rear of the lens being struck by the mirror on later bodies. I believe it's usually possible to use FL and FD lenses on R mount cameras. Crossing bodies and lenses between those mounts will result in the loss of some functionality such as automatic aperture diaphragm control or TTL metering

There were also three FD-based hybrid 'AC' autfocus lenses produced in 1985/86 to work with the FD mount T80 body. You could use other manual focus FD lenses on the T80, and also use the AC lenses with other FD bodies, but without the AF function and also with the loss of any aperture control on the lens, as that was controlled electronically by the T80 body.

I suppose you could add the EF-S mount although that's just a development of EF for non-full-frame cameras.

You might also add EF-M, which is the smaller register version of EF mount for the EOS-M mirrorless system.

 

[magicolor1]

Well, if we're being strictly accurate, Canon have had four 35mm SLR mounts over the last 50 years

R Mount: 1959-64
FL mount: 1964-71
FD mount: 1971-87
EF mount: 1987 to today

Yes but to be fair most people on here probably weren't born when the FD mount was introduced

You might also add EF-M, which is the smaller register version of EF mount for the EOS-M mirrorless system.

But that's not an SLR :razz:

We've got way off the original question though, and the simple answer is that nobody outside Canon or Nikon really knows, but Canon's EF mount does look more future proof than anything Nikon ever made.

 

[MatBin]

I was 16!!!! I bought an early eos film camera, still have it, not a patch on the AE1 it replaced, apart from eye focusing (you might want to Google that). I doubt Canon will replace the EF mount anytime soon. Either by luck or good design the mount seems to handle every new advance very well right back to the first lens still working with current bodies. Admittedly ef-s isn't as comparable but all the old ef lenses will all still work, which is mightily impressive.
Matt

 

[Musicman]

But that's not an SLR :razz:

Yep, exactly. And yet Canon were able to maintain 100% compatibility of the new mirrorless camera body with every Canon EF and EF-S lens manufactured since 1987.

They were also able to use EF with the Canon EOS IX APS-format film camera system in the late 1990s.

I think that says something about the forward-looking nature of the EF mount design.

 

[heidfirst]

Sony were able to maintain 100% compatibility on their mirrorless bodies with every Minolta/Sony A-mount lens made since 1985 ...

imo the most forward thinking thing that Canon did was to include an electronic aperture - that's where all the mechanically operated mounts like A-mount will eventually be found wanting.

 

[pingu666]

the industry is heading towards mirrorless, with smaller flange distances, so its more likely to be adaptable than not

 

[bailout]

Now that photography is digital it is firmly in the electronic gadget field. With new technology being developed it is impossible to say what cameras will be like in 5 or 10 years time and hence impossible to say whether a mount will still be used. Obviously Canon's mount was designed for legacy 35mm film and SLR cameras with mirrors. It can be adapted for new tech to some extent but there will probably come a time where it is holding back the system and will be dropped.

I think you have to accept that any kit you buy will have a limited life and can't be thought of as some lifetime investment.