We love our world... don't we?

Forbiddenbiker

Forbiddenbiker

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Adam
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Yes
So how far would you go to save it..?

Perhaps you’re of the mind that the problems not so bad, the governments will slowly correct things and all will be well again.... I'd like to add to that, that it might be that way... but in good conscious, I find I can't.

Or perhaps like me, You feel your totally aware of the sheer size of the catastrophe that is 'global warming' and can fully understand the inevitable consequences of our actions and how overdue our responses is and how dangerous a time it is etc...Err.... yep; I feel it’s so bad I couldn't even say it.

So if the answers 'Yes' I do love our world, (its not that we have any other options after all) ...and you've realised that in fact its us that’s in danger not the planet.... then... how far would you go to save us?

---

Those and that's the questions on many of our minds I hope, this is TP after all. :thumbs:
I'm personally in the belief that we may have to go a very long way in a very short time... but the problem, as I see it, is theirs nothing happening...dribs and drabs of environmental hyped up b******t...environmentally friendly electric cars...doh...no there not you fools.

I'd like to dream that I could sell up, I have that means nowadays, join a group, make a difference, do something more constructive. I have massively reduced my carbon emissions...doing enough for about 4 of you singles...is ok, you can thank me later.... But overall I'm quite lazy and I need someone to TELL me what to do...by LAW.

'No you can’t have a car, or van, so your business has to go’. ...Oh, Ok. :) ...’and your bike’. Oh...ok. :( ...’but you can have a scooter’ ...Oh shiser. :'(

‘And they’ll be no power between 10pm and 5am, and you'll have to ware jumpers indoors. :eek: and we’ll penalise you if you use more than a fifth of what you using today’… What no late night TV to stumble home too ... :'( Ok then.


... How do you guys feel about it all, and have you considered how far we may have to go?
 
If a draconian regime is required and can be uniformaly and globally applied then I'm with you. There are many technologies used in continental europe that out government ignores as it is too difficult to assign franchises (for Christs sake!!). For example, natural gas needs to be depressurised before it can be piped to houses. This energy could produce elecricity as a by-product at peak times (ie, more gas used by consumer, more to de-pressurise, more to drive a turbine and produce electricty). Simple. Wont save the planet on its own - could do in conjuction with other schemes already in existence.
 
Does it have to be globally applied though…, why can’t we, be the first so suffer…lead by example and all that….can’t be worse than the blitz, and it may possibly do our society some good. :lol:

I so agree with you about available technology….flippin crazy…only the biggest companies can make the first ripples that will turn the tide fully. Until then I feel… Technology will help us get back what we have to first loose. :shrug:
 
Two words; Kyoto 'Agreement'. Sadly, thanks to our capitalist hearts, the playing field has to be levelled and your idea (diluted or otherwise) would never be adopted by our American, Chinese, European... hell, anyone else, unless everybody was forced to comply.
 
More and more experts now are being forced to admit that climate change is less about pollution, and more about the fact that, every few thousand years, the planets weather DOES shift dramatically. Ice age anyone?

I'd like to see more food being farmed, if not organically, then with at least a nod to the fact that you don;t have to use as many chemicals as generally are used these days. The taste difference is quite incredible and that has to tell you something!

If I'm honest. I think the state we live in is altogether getting too "nanny" for our own good. I'm sick to the back teeth of being told "Don't eat that" "you can't do that" and "You're not allowed to say that any more!" The bottom line is that a government will happily introduce laws to "tell you" to do certain things, but they'll be sneakier than that. What they will actually do is tell you that they are going to tax you to the eyeballs for doing the stuff you do now. the really sickening part is that there is NO guarantee (or even, if we're being honest!) likelihood that it'll make the blindest bit of difference to climate change. If the climate is due a shift, then shift it will.

Some food for thought for you. The Government is talking about introducing road charging. Some of the fees they are talking about include £1 a mile on busy motorways in the South East. Surprise surprise the M11 and M25 would both be classed as "busy" for their purposes. I have to travel to work by car as it's impractical for me to use public transport. I do a 40 mile round trip, 5 days a week. approximately 32 of those miles are on the two motorways I mention. IF road charging is introduced at the level they are talking about, it will cost me over £600 per month EXTRA to get to work. I would simply not be able to afford to keep my job. End of. Now consider this. The 20 mile journey into work usually takes me approximately 30 - 35 minutes. An average speed of around 40mph. Not bad considering there is a mile or so at either end on local roads, and NOT what I would call "Busy" motorways, by any stretch of the imagination!
 
I really do think that public transport in this country is appalling! After spending 3 years in Germany and seeing how it is supposed to work I was shocked to come here and see how the crippling effects of high housing prices where all the decent jobs are and no way to get to said jobs without a car just seem to make the rich richer and the middle class/poor poorer. Take Witch above, she has to quit her decent job because she can't afford to move closer (I'm taking liberties here as I don't actually know her situation) but there is no reliable way to get her to work othe than a car. So now cars are priced out so she has to either 1 move to a one bedroom apartment with 4 kids and a dog or quit decent job and go on the dole. Obviously I'm overstating but you get the picture.

I think propper public transport is key is developing a strong environmental policy and a strong middle class which in the end is who supports most governments.

Off of soap box now!
 
LOL - the worst thing is, if I DID have to quit my job if they introduced road charging, the government would then tell me that as I'd "chosen" to leave, I'd be eligible for no benefits for 6 months!

TBH I can't see road charging being introduced because it's SUCH a vote-loser. Any government doing it is going to know damned well that they will have a near-revolt on their hands.

I drive a 1.5 diesel. Small car so don't take up much space on the roads. For sure I get reduced road tax as a result, but in the event of the charging they are talking about, I would be paying more than someone with a 4x4 "off road" vehicle that they use for the school run and the most "off road" use it ever gets is driving over a kerbstone as it corners, because the driver can't handle a car that's too big and that they've only got as a status symbol!
 
One thing that will not happen is global acceptance of any so-called rules for the masses wherever they are in any part of the world ... life's not that easy and education is sadly lacking in those countries that most need to stop contributing to environmental decay ... I will not use the term global warming because it has lost all meaning these days ... yes the world may be warming and so it may be global but for crissakes it is not necessarily because we drive too many miles on too many motorways and should therefore be penalised ... although accepted it just may be one contributing factor.

I'm more inclined to agree with Witch ...:eek: ... nature has a way of addressing the imbalances caused by things that adversely affect it ... it sounds fatalist but put quite simply if it is nature's way there ain't no way human-kind is going to stop or change the course of the inevitable ... imo of course ... ;)

The younger nations in terms of development are far worse at polluting and damaging our environment than we could ever hope to be ... it's all down to sheer population mass ... so whatever we do in this country will have little, or no global affect on the problem unless or until these undeveloped or developing countries toe the line ... can anyone see this happening in the next 50 years ... I can't and therefore the inevitable will happen, if scientists are to be believed ... we (the human race) will be facing a situation where the damage being caused cannot be reversed ! And nature will have its way ... :suspect:

Adam asks "how far would we go ..."... well personally I try, like most of you do I am sure, to 'do my bit' ... but when you are constantly bombarded with how each of us can make a difference ... and then politicians and so-called world leaders go jetting off all over the world for summits and holidays and drive to meetings and destinations in gas guzzling motor cars you get to the point of saying why am I bothering ... someone above said the UK should consider leading by example ... does that same logic not apply to country and world leaders then ... all the while they do not take their own advisers advice they can hardly be surprised when joe public is somewhat sceptical can they ... ?

However ... despite this I still do as much as I can whilst still continuing to enjoy life as far as is possible ... yes I have a nice car, some might call it a gas guzzler ... but I use public transport and shanks' pony more now than I ever did ... the reason ? I don't like using my car for all the journeys I used to when I had a smaller car just to park it somewhere so some numpty in a beaten up motor can reverse into it in a car park or a vandal can score it with their keys ... it happens and is a decent enough deterrent to doing many miles where the car is left to its own devices ... so I have it but it sits on my drive most days going nowhere ! We have reduced our holidays abroad, and we eat vegetarian, and turn off lights we don't use, and have turned down the central heating ... I could go on but ... yawn ...

Oh ... and incidentally does anyone know how environmentally unfriendly the various manufacturing processes are for cameras, lenses, batteries, computers, chips, printers, inks, etc., ... you get my drift ... :D

Great discussion thread Adam ... :thumbs: ... but will it help anything other than salving our consciences ... :shrug: ... who can say ... ;)



:p

 
as far as i'm concerned it's just more government b******t to f$$k us somemore with tax's, i agree with witch, it is inevitable climate change will happen because thats nature, and theres no conclusive evidence that us cutting down on this that or the other will make a difference, if the covernment where truly concerned why are'nt they building house's with solar panel's as standard as doors and window's, not just for private house's for council and housing association property's too, also why are'nt they plowing more money into electric cars, as the technology is there, so they say they want us to use public transport, but in the same breath train fare's increase, to discourage people to travel, what a crock of **** it all is, and what's more amazing is how people fall for for it all, ok rant over, but just to add i don't have a car and cycle or walk to work, but alway's have done before all this crap started to imerge.
 
Agree mostly with the Ven, but the worst polluter is the good ol US of A with 25% of the worlds pollution with, I think, only 5% of the worlds population.

Now, we're no angels here, and the waking dragon that is China is close behind.

Whether we're talking global warming (and i accept the natural cycle that also has an effect - research shows that we should be actually be further along with polar melting than we are) or severe pollution with the incumbent health risks - human and otherwise, something has to be done and done quickly.

There's Jonny's two penneth :)
 
I do strongly disagree with the suggestion the scientists around the world are saying the problem is to do with natural changes. They are not saying that at all, :nono: (some of them may have said it once or twice at the beginning, ... only what the press published anyway ;) )...in fact a huge majority says exactly the opposite
In the words of me; you can't release several millions of years of carbon stored via the natural cycles in a hundred year period... and think that has no effect on the natural cycle….ill or not….make no mistake, we are standing at the brink of our own doing and our complacency at this point will be our undoing.

…I sound like bloody Gandalf . :D

This is where one of the problems lays I feel, many of us have yet to be informed with the real facts....they are quite scary after all. As Jonny says, the Kyoto agreement, although clear with intentions failed to produce anything like realistic solutions, a huge failyer wouldn’t be butting it mildly.. They wanted 80% reduction for the US...they got %6. …what flippin use is that..


As said above, we're becoming sceptical, p***ed even...someone do something quick.... I don't care who I follow as long as I can see a light at the end of the tunnel. bhaaaa.
 
I think it should be made compulsory for everyone to re-cycle. We have a re-cycling bin that is emptied once a fortnight, but some people don't use theirs (I know for a fact that my mother is one of these said people - it takes too much time and she can't be bothered :cuckoo:).

I emailed the council a few weeks back to see why all plastics can't be put in the re-cycling bin (they will only accept grade 1,2,3), and it appears that though facilities exist, they are few and far between, and are too expensive. I take all the glass to the glass re-cycling bins at the supermarket and re-cycle what I can via the bin collection scheme. It really pains me to put plastic cartons in the normal rubbish bin that cannot be re-cycled as they are grade 4 or 5.

I think manufacturers should become more environmentally friendly in the packaging they use. Why does fruit & veg have to be put in plastic packaging ffs? Nature gave it it's own packaging (not that I buy it in plastic packaging, I hasten to add, but I know that some do).

Yes, I drive a car - I have no option in my job as a community midwife. I live 25 miles away from where I work, so a bike isn't really an option (plus, I'd have nowhere to put all the equipment I have to lug around). On the subject (sort of), disposable nappies are one of the worst culprits and take up a huge percentage of landfill. IIRC, they take something like 100 years to decompose :eek:
 
Again - we can learn from the continent. I lived in Holland for a year and most things you bought had a premium - you returned the glass, carton, bottle and got vouchers in exchange at the store...... The store had the infrastructure to support this, also creating employment.... with a laisez faire government i fear we'll not reach these ambitions

Vote for Jonny ;)
 
minimeeze said:
I think manufacturers should become more environmentally friendly in the packaging they use. Why does fruit & veg have to be put in plastic packaging ffs? Nature gave it it's own packaging (not that I buy it in plastic packaging, I hasten to add, but I know that some do).
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Yes defiantly, :thumbs:
..In fact we should all sue the suppliers of polluting products...just like early cigarette users did with the tobacco companies. :D
 
I read the other week about Supermarkets being held accountable for the amount of unneccesary plastic packaging - its a very good point. Paper and cardboard are perfectly adequate for the shelf-lifes we live to
 
Re: Recycling

In the Outer Hebrides, most houses you pass have at least two, if not more, bins outside. They have separate wheelie bins for Organic waste, which most people use. There is also a wheelie for recyclables - with separate bags/boxes which fit inside to split up the various types or recyclable goods (Tins, bottles, paper etc). Landfill is a huge issue up there as the area itself is so beautiful nobody wants to see huge landfill schemes spoiling it. The scheme works well - even the cottage we stay in on holiday has the bins/bags etc. They are certainly more "green" up there than we are down here.

On the negative side though there are plans for a massive windfarm which - if it goes through - will not only ruin the look of the beautiful countryside (Thus almost certainly reducing the tourist income) but will also create havoc with the environment. Wind is seen as a "harmless" method of creating power, but this is far from the truth.
 
Witch said:
On the negative side though there are plans for a massive windfarm which - if it goes through - will not only ruin the look of the beautiful countryside (Thus almost certainly reducing the tourist income) but will also create havoc with the environment. Wind is seen as a "harmless" method of creating power, but this is far from the truth.
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Can I ask what you mean by that Robyn, could you expand on that....why is that far from the truth?
As I understand it no matter how many wind farms or water farms or solar panels we have, even if we covered the whole country and the coast...it will not be enough....I'm of the opinion Nuclear power is the way to go, the unknown storage problem being slightly less of a worry than the situation where in now. :shrug:

Its fairly clear feel that no matter how much re-cycling we do, or how little we use our car, whether we're careful around the home, switch off lights, use the shower instead of the bath etc etc etc... We’re just not going to make an impact...so that’s it then, we're doomed.
 
Forbiddenbiker said:
Can I ask what you mean by that Robyn, could you expand on that....why is that far from the truth?
As I understand it no matter how many wind farms or water farms or solar panels we have, even if we covered the whole country and the coast...it will not be enough....I'm of the opinion Nuclear power is the way to go, the unknown storage problem being slightly less of a worry than the situation where in now. :shrug:

Its fairly clear feel that no matter how much re-cycling we do, or how little we use our car, whether we're careful around the home, switch off lights, use the shower instead of the bath etc etc etc... We’re just not going to make an impact...so that’s it then, we're doomed.
Click to expand...

There are two particular problems with windfarms. The first is directly related to wildlife. Wind turbines are responsible for a huge number of birds being killed as they fly into them. The noise the turbines make also has an impact on both human and animal life around them. The second problem is environmental. Remember the environment? The thing we're trying to look after? The kind of huge windfarms being planned for around our coast stop a tremendous amount of wind from passing by. Each turbine has the action of effectively taking pqwer fropm the wind, to turn into power for our use (crap explanation but as I'm assuming we all know how turbines work...?!) and that, in its turn, has an impact by distorting our natural weather patterns.

Have THIS LINK by way of the other side of the argument. Oh - if you want to see exactly what kind of environment is proposed for one of these farms, and hear the views of some of those affected, have a look at THIS ONE too.

Forbiddenbiker said:
I'm suprised many of you re-cycle and yet think that global warming is natural...so what use do you think your re-cyling has..??

:D
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Nothing to do with global warming in our case FB - simply trying to reduce the amount of our countryside being taken up with landfill sites!

Tell you what though Adam - I've found some interesting reading as a result of this thread - notable relating to the recycling issue, so ta for that! :thumbs:
 
IanC_UK said:
Strange but true, David Bellamy supports Nuclear Power for the reasons mentioned above, Wind farms cause more issues than they resolve !
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Not to mention the environmental damage caused in manufacturing the damn things ... complete waste of space and dwindling resources imo ... :shrug:





:p
 
The problem is huge, and almost everything about our current society amplifies it.

House prices mean people live far out, have to commute and pollute more.
Everyone's idea that space and comfort are everything means cars are driving around with 4L engines just to pull the huge mass of steel that makes it up (aka the Range Rover Vogue), and to power the 4 TV's for the kids...

there is and has been natural fluctuations, but the rate at which things are happening is much, much greater than it has been in the past, and CO2 levels (known to be caused by humans) are at an all time high. We all need to do something, but the question is really whether or not we can even make a difference. If the world stopped emitting CO2 now, temperatures would continue to rise for another hundred years or so...
 
Witch said:
There are two particular problems with windfarms. The first is directly related to wildlife. Wind turbines are responsible for a huge number of birds being killed as they fly into them. The noise the turbines make also has an impact on both human and animal life around them. The second problem is environmental. Remember the environment? The thing we're trying to look after? The kind of huge windfarms being planned for around our coast stop a tremendous amount of wind from passing by. Each turbine has the action of effectively taking pqwer fropm the wind, to turn into power for our use (crap explanation but as I'm assuming we all know how turbines work...?!) and that, in its turn, has an impact by distorting our natural weather patterns.

Have THIS LINK by way of the other side of the argument. Oh - if you want to see exactly what kind of environment is proposed for one of these farms, and hear the views of some of those affected, have a look at THIS ONE too.



Nothing to do with global warming in our case FB - simply trying to reduce the amount of our countryside being taken up with landfill sites!

Tell you what though Adam - I've found some interesting reading as a result of this thread - notable relating to the recycling issue, so ta for that! :thumbs:
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I'm sorry witch, but backing up your argument with a link to a site that is clearly against wind farms isn't really helping. There are many advantages of windfarms. Modern windfarms have very slow moving blades, and the danger posed to birds from these is much smaller than anti-windfarm campaigners would have you believe...

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/04/common_misconce.php

It is also worth noting that advantages in gearbox technology mean that the noise produced by windfarms is much lower than it has been, and it will continue to fall. Current windfarms are varying generations of farms, and while some will kill birds, if the latest technology is used, the bird mortality rate falls.

Very little is known about the effects of wind power on local climates. (although it is likely that the global climate will be affected very little by wind power), however it is likely that the positive effects caused by wind power (CO2 reduction) will counteract the negative effects. The fact is, the climate is changing, so a small change caused by wind turbines is likely to be absorbed into a larger change anyway.

In my opinion, wind farms are a very positive development, and like any modern technology, very few of the current arguments against them are even valid or will be valid for much longer.
 
dont wind turbines require more energy to manufacture and install than they will ever generate in their life time?


i read that somewhere so have no facts to back it up with.


and about birds getting hit by the blades, natural selection, the stupid birds get wiped out and the stronger ones survive, the clever ones live to breed with other clever birds and ultimately breed generations of more intelegent birds, the thick ones dye off, and eventually we are enslaved by a populus of intelegent killer birds who rule the world
 
leoedin said:
I'm sorry witch, but backing up your argument with a link to a site that is clearly against wind farms isn't really helping. .
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With respect Leo - if you read my post fully, you will see that I have made absolutely clear that the links I've posted are exactly that - the other side of the argument. See relevant excerpt below.

Witch said:
Have THIS LINK by way of the other side of the argument. Oh - if you want to see exactly what kind of environment is proposed for one of these farms, and hear the views of some of those affected, have a look at THIS ONE too.
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Our of interest - Arthur's Seat gets a fair bit of wind. Fancy seeing that covered in Turbines?
 
yes, I would. I like wind turbines - I personally thing they can be beautiful...

oh, and no, you didn't give the other side. Skye Windfarm Action Group is against windfarms. So is the second link. Two links to anti windfarm sites is hardly fair.
 
I think Blur coined the phrase -

'Modern life is rubbish'.

That to me says it all.
 
leoedin said:
oh, and no, you didn't give the other side. Skye Windfarm Action Group is against windfarms. So is the second link. Two links to anti windfarm sites is hardly fair.
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:bang:

Oh dear - it's hard work sometimes.

Leo - I'm AGAINST wind farms. Therefore what I was providing links to was the other side of the argument to those arguing in favour. Why, in the circumstances, would I have wanted to link to sites which are AGAINST my view? That's what debate is - one person giving one side of an argument, which stats and facts (in this case links) to back up their case, and someone on the other side then coming back with their argument! Wouldn't be much of a debate if everyone sat on the fence!
 
Witch said:
T. Each turbine has the action of effectively taking pqwer fropm the wind, to turn into power for our use and that, in its turn, has an impact by distorting our natural weather patterns.
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I'm totally with you on this side effect, the energy is clearly removed and converted into electricity...but its also true to say cities etc also remove energy from the wind.....It is an extremely complexed thing that’s for sure..... It all comes down to numbers I guess...if huge areas of the planets covered in them...who knows

Thanks for your explanation Robyn, I'd kind of pushed the landfill problem to the sides, In fact part of me disagrees with the whole recycling thing, as right now, its possible the extra CO2 pollution cost of the processes may outweigh the benefits :shrug: .... I'm totally for it though, and it’s very complex...so just ignore this hypocrite. :D


leoedin said:
there is and has been natural fluctuations, but the rate at which things are happening is much, much greater than it has been in the past, and CO2 levels (known to be caused by humans) are at an all time high. We all need to do something, but the question is really whether or not we can even make a difference. If the world stopped emitting CO2 now, temperatures would continue to rise for another hundred years or so...
Click to expand...


Good point, I think its inevitable that we're going to deal with the consequences for a long time yet, things like the tornado in North London just a few months ago are just a for starters.... we had others in the midlands as well didn't we....time to check that house insurance.

...then again, why worry, the Gulf Stream may stop instead.


-------

Just for interest...this is kinda where we are at in the UK.

Last year UK;
We had 95 CO2 emitting power stations (coal, gas, oil, types) and approx 2,500 smaller renewable sources emitting less CO2…
...But only 12 Nuclear.

Approx 48 million tonnes of carbon was released last year from these power stations, that’s six thousand tonnes every hour.….And makes up to a 30% slice of total UK emissions….(don’t forget the air industry, main industry, shipping, rail, plus others and cars make up about 5% if I remember right.)

This rapid consumption of natures stored resources gave us approx 390,000 GWh of electricity last year

Our renewable sources gave us approx 14,000 GWh …although half of that is still polluting.

Nuclear gave us approx 50,000 GWh…another kind of pollution.

As you can see there’s a big gulf between the good, the bad and the ugly.


Nice pie chart for your perusal which shows the split in renewable sources as of 2004.
image002.gif
 
One thing you haven't mention Adam is the amount of energy we buy in from France, etc. the majority of this is from nuclear powerstaions.....

Wonder how that effects the dynamics altogether......?

Jon
 
Forbiddenbiker said:
We buy in about 10,000 GWh and sell about 2,000....it all about caring/sharing with Europe more than need.
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Hadn't appreciated that - it sounds like that, as a nation, we're keen to maintain the trade defecit in all we do :bang:
 
well as it gets warmer we'll have to use less energy to heat our homes etc.

We use less, the temp goes down.

Swings and roundabouts TBF :D
 
I'm going to buy an Aussie V8 while there's still petrol to run it on. I fully intend to have a carbon-footprint as big as India and China's combined.

Yes, I know, but I really can't be A*sed if nobody else can.
 
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