We don't pay the photographer, only the artist...

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petemc

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Pete
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So I've been doing some unpayed work for the Independents Biennial around Liverpool. I knew the job didn't pay when I took it but I was happy to as its a great way to get out and about meeting other artists during the Biennial. There's this magazine called Artists Newsletter who have been holding space on their front cover for a photo from the Independents Biennial. I recently took some shots of someones artwork for the Independents website and Artists Newsletter expressed an interest in possibly using these for their front cover. Wahey I thought. Front cover, bit of money. I asked them who I should send the invoice to and they replied with...

"We pay the artist for the use of the image of their work any how, I'm assuming you've been paid to take the images so we wouldn't pay you again. But we will credit you if we use one of your images..."

Kick in the teeth. I've not been paid by anyone. The artist hasn't mentioned anything. The Independents Biennial haven't. Its not the artists image to use anyway. I hold the copyright on it so any usage should be paid to me. It doesn't matter whether one company payed me to take the image as this is a different use of it. I'm right in thinking that aren't I? I don't want to seem like some whiney guy going on about money to these people but it does seem quite annoying. How should I tackle it?
 
You are right. Tackle it? How badly do you want the cover? Are you looking for exposure? Would having credit given to you help your exposure?
 
I was told that they pay £130 for the cover image. I hear that now goes to the artist, so thats a bit of a blow. I doubt anyone would look at the cover and go "Thats a nice photo, who took it?" I think they'd be more impressed with the original artwork and the artist.
 
Seems a bit odd to me. Not sure on the law though I'll ask the lawyer sitting across the hall see what she thinks... She's a corporate lawyer so might not be much help.

R
 
£130 for the cover image, is YOUR cover image. No way it should go to the artist.
 
Dena said:
£130 for the cover image, is YOUR cover image. No way it should go to the artist.
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Yeah thats what I told the Independents Biennial when they mentioned it. They weren't sure who it goes to and I said it would be me as its my copyright on the image.
 
Hmm the law works in mysterious ways.
Now the person I spoke with is not a copyright lawyer. She thinks - you own the copyright to the image but may not reproduce it without the artists permission (unless they signed a waiver to enter wherever you were taking the pictures) as they own the copyright of the art itself. But since you own the image you always have the right to refuse them the use of it if they dont' come around to yoru way of thinking but you cannot force them to pay you for it. Not sure if that explains it great I'll try in more detail if you need thorugh PM.
Renee
 
You certainly get them :bang: You're not being whiney about it, you took the image, you get paid for the time and expertise involved in taking it.
 
Yeah I kinda get what you mean. I do own the copyright on my image and my image is essentially a reproduction of someone elses work. The artist was present when I took the photos, as was the guy running the Independents Biennial so I had their authorisation to take the shots for use on the site. It does get tricky as I would essentially be profiting from someone elses work, but then at the same time its also my own work...
 
So, the artist owns the copyright of the artwork. You own the copyright of the picture of the copyrighted artwork. Therefore the artist could stop you from using/reproducing the image of their copyrighted artwork, especially if they haven't signed a waver.

Why not, as this seems an opportunistic revenue source, agree with the artist to split the proceeds from the publication :thinking:
 
Yeah that seems like a good idea. Its just the way they said "We wouldn't pay you again" like its saving me from the trouble of having to earn money. "Oh you poor man. Someone paid you? Don't worry, we'll spare you of that." Gee, thanks.
 
Oi, your only a photographer, get to the back of the bread line :gag:


Muppet's, they just don't live in the real world do they ;)
 
sounds like they are trying it on Pete, tell them the cover shot costs £130 from you, but have a chat with the artists first, just to see how the land lay...
 
Seems to me your choices are

1 Split the dosh with the artist... if agreeable

2 Settle for being credited but no wonga.

3 Tell 'em it's your copyrighted image and to stuff off - they can't use it.
 
I've spoken to the Indepenedents and they say its more important to get the front cover than anything and they'll sort out the money later.
 
Hmm not sure if I would release the rights for this to be used until I had something in writing. Could be very difficult to prove you wanted to be paid once you agree to it being published. Everything ALWAYS needs to be in writing.
 
petemc said:
........and they'll sort out the money later.
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Be careful you don't get shafted with this attitude, if it's that important to get the front cover they can do a little bit more work to ensure payment.

Get it in writing before you agree to them using it.
 
The Independent Biennial guy said he'd sort it out after, not the magazine. Hopefully things will work out.
 
Pete, get it in writing first, if these people are genuine etc..they'll be able to draw something up for you to sign to say they'll pay you/Give you credit for the image.
 
Doesn't matter who said it mate. Get it in writing first. Or get the cash in your hand first. Either or.

Unfortunately, it's a sad world when you can't trust someone, but unfortunately, you just can't anymore.

Would he order a conservatory and say "Building it is the most important thing, we'll discuss money after".
Not a chance. So why should he be allowed to say the same to you?

You're offering a service, he either pays, or contractually obligates himself to pay. THEN you stump up your services. :)
 
Ok. The Independents people don't want me to blow anything with the magazine as they've paid £800 for the back page advert and have been told they'll get a picture on the front cover relating to the Independents. So they don't want me bouncing all over the magazine about being payed. I'm struggling to find the words to ring this artist and ask her about splitting the money. It just seems so mean. I know its business and all that but she's only like a 24 yr old girl on a plumbing course. There's also a chance that they may not even use this photo. They haven't decided yet, so I'd rather not ring up this girl and ask for half her pennies just yet.

So whats the best plan of action? Ring the Independents and get them to sign something saying a fee to be arranged at a later date? Wouldn't that leave me open to being payed 10p?
 
You could maybe ask them to come back to you with a sensible offer - and make gently clear that until they do, you won't be licensing them to use the image for ANYTHING other than have already agreed....
 
No you would really need to know the fee you are being paid before you sign. I assume you need to sign something giving them permission to print your photo and that you have not done so already. If you have already signed your are up s**t creek without a paddle. I guess what you have to decide is whether being paid is worth a fight to you. If this is your profession then you have got to be paid because I get paid to do my job and you need to be paid to do yours. I understand that you wouldn't want to upset Independents but hey they didn't pay you either so they don't get allot of say in the matter. If it was me and I wanted to be paid I would not sign anything without the money being arranged first. Just my two cents!
 
Half of HER pennies? Yes, she did the artwork Pete. But YOU used your skills to create the graphical representation of her work. And it's THAT that they (may) want to publish. I might be mistaken, but this seems to be like the mechanical copyright thing in the music biz... if you get caught pirating CDs or whatever, it's not the artist that looks for compensation, it's the record company - cos you've ripped off their recording.

You want to take this one up with the Independants people, not the artist. She should be chuffed that her artwork has been chosen for the front cover, and yes, she deserves some recompense for it, but it's still your image that's gonna be used.

Just my 2p worth.
 
I haven't signed anything yet. I was under the misguided impression that AN would be paying me £130 for the use of my photo so I sent them a link to the images. They came back and asked me if I had any other angles, I said no and then asked them who I should send the license / invoice to. They then replied with the message that started this thread. This is my profession, and yes I do deserved to be payed for doing my job.

Right ok. I'll see what the magazine decide. If they want to use an image I'll get the Independents guy to sign a license as the original agreement was between the magazine and them. They hired me as a photog so I guess they should foot the bill. I'll mention that I'm still happy to shoot things for the site for free, but for something like the front cover of national magazine someone has to pay for the license.

I *REALLY* need a business person as I'm just so rubbish at this :) I know quite a few successful companies that start out having 2 people. One arty, one business and boom success.
 
I can help from the company law standpoint once you have a limited company (as that is my profession "company secretary") if you ever need any input on that end just give me a holler and I'll see what I can do.
 
It sounds to me with all the issues you have had Pete, you need to agree fees and get something signed BEFORE you even take the camera out of its bag, most of the problems seem to be after you have done the job, then you start haggling over money and rights.
 
IanC_UK said:
It sounds to me with all the issues you have had Pete, you need to agree fees and get something signed BEFORE you even take the camera out of its bag, most of the problems seem to be after you have done the job, then you start haggling over money and rights.
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Yeah that I do :( I'm learning but oh so slowly. Still I had a client ring the other day, one of my regulars, and I quoted them a price. I'll get them to sign something on the day too and this time I remember to explain licenses to them stating that these are only for their site and if the paper wants some they'll have to pay. I was quite proud of that. Its times like that where I do feel this is all paying off as I'm getting more confident. As someone once said, theres knowing the path and walking the path. I'm still attempting to walk/crawl it.
 
you need to draw up some terms and conditions Pete, then its in writing, you can refer to it in conversation, such as 'image prices are £XX and usage is as per my terms and conditions' then if they dont read them, its their own fault
 
Personally I would supply the image with written T&C either separate or in the IPTC stating that use of the image is acceptance of your licence to publish and be paid. I would also put in the T&C that 'where works of art contribute significantly to the artistic nature of the final image, you acknowledge the right of the artist to be recognised, and may make separate payments to him/her for the reproduction of an image of his/her artwork from the funds received under the licensing terms agreed.'
 
OOoh great ideas guys. Cheers. I doubt small companies will really notice the IPTC tag but they would notice a document. Noted for the future.
 
Take all the money and go to the pub afterwards and drink yourself out of the guilt that you'll feel over stitching up this poor impoverished artist!

Seriously - take the money and offer 'some' to the artist. And get it all in writing.
 
Aw I met the artist again last night and she was jumping up and down about her work being on the cover of a magazine. I'm really glad I didn't call her and ask for half the money. I came to an agreement with the Independants about money and they're paying me what she got. The magazine called and said the images were a bit soft. Soft!?! Not again!!!
 
petemc said:
Aw I met the artist again last night and she was jumping up and down about her work being on the cover of a magazine. I'm really glad I didn't call her and ask for half the money. I came to an agreement with the Independants about money and they're paying me what she got. The magazine called and said the images were a bit soft. Soft!?! Not again!!!
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you got examples pete?
 
petemc said:
Soft!?! Not again!!!
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I think part of the issue here could be that a lot of the photographers they use will have high end bodies & glass - which produce very sharp images out of the camera. Of course, this is all irrelevant for newspaper printing - they're just being finicky. Consider turning in-camera sharpening on // up.
Or they could be being extra idiotic & calling intentionally OOF areas "soft" - were you being creative with DoF?
 
It was low light and the results looked ok to me. I was probably shooting at like f/2.8 with the flash (yes I know, a bit silly) but the results did look good as the piece is essentially 2D. There is no depth. So today I was back doing 30 second exposures at f/22 :D

8mb example. Now its going to be an A4 print and they wanted the words readable. At A4 I doubt you'd see be able to read them even with the new f/22 samples. I bet if I sharpen them they'll moan that they're noisy.
 
there's just no pleasing some people. you do all the work and they're about as useful as a chocolate teapot...muppets
 
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