Using 450D for weddings with L glass?

[Vicki]

Hello everyone,

Ok, so I'm brand new to this site so please be nice!

I'm basically looking for opinions on the following. I'm seriously getting into wedding photography and want to move forward and upgrade my kit.

I currently own the Canon EOS 450D with the standard kit lens, plus a telephoto, a 50mm f.18 and a Jessops external flash unit.

I recently bought the Canon 15-85mm f3.5/5.6 but while it was a great lens with sharp pics I realised I needed a fixed aperture to give me the speed so I took it back.

Now I'm looking to buy the following.

Canon EFS 17-55 f2.8
Canon EF 24 -70 F2.8 (38-112 equivalent on crop)
Canon EF 70-200 F2.8 (112-320 equivalent on crop)

I was going to invest in the 16-35 F2.8 but I know that with the crop factor my FOV will be equivalent to 25-56mm so in theory I'd have to invest in the 10-22mm to compensate so buying the EF 17-55 F2.8 is the best financial way to go at the moment regarding the wide angle.

My question is if I was at the back of a church then obv using the 70-200 (112-320) will give me the great focal length I need but will the 450D cope with the low lighting? (without a flash?)

I want to buy the 5D MKII but can't afford it right now so am thinking that starting with getting good glass is the way to go before upgrading the body.

But I'm concerned that even with the L glass the lighting might be an issue.

Any advice is much appreciated!

Thanks,

Vicki

 

[Euan]

If your going to quote fields of view then the 17-55 is actually 27-88 equivalent just because its an EF-S lens its still affected by the crop factor. If your thinking of going 5d2 in the near future id gear your lenses towards that. I think the 450 would struggle with high iso noise also.

 

[Bidz]

I'm seriously getting into wedding photography and want to move forward and upgrade my kit.

What do you really mean by "seriously"?

A 450D won't cut it for long, as it's not brilliant in low light.

The 70-200mm F2.8L is generally a choice for wedding togs. The 24-70mm is good, also the 24-105mm.

If I were you I'd consider investing in either IS glass or a body with better ISO capabilities to eliminate the risk of soft photographs from camera shake.

 

[Vicki]

Maybe FOV was wrong to use then, sorry.

The 17-55 F.28 is designed for my crop sensor but obviously the 16-35mm isn't so is equivalent to the 25-56 so obviously not wide enough, hence me saying I'd need the 10-22 to compensate which is why I was thinking for now the ES-S 18-55 F2.8.

By serious I mean I'm going to be doing paid for weddings but for low budgets (high quality, low price) but obviously I want to get my kit up to spec before I do that.

I've already shot 2 weddings for friends and they loved the pics.

Ooh I was intending on spending the extra to get the 70-200 F.28 with IS.

Thanks,

Vicki

 

[CaptainPenguin]

Well you have some nice glass there and I have done weddings with a lot less kit than that,my initial worry would be that you need a second body as a back up so if finance allows why not a better crop sensor such as as a 50,60 or 7D.
With regard to a cameras low light performance in a dark church without flash how many of these type of shots do we realistically take during a shoot and is it beyond the realms of man to do as we did in the film days and use a tripod

 

[Euan]

The 16-35 (26-56 equivalent) is still wider than the 17-55 on a crop though, focal length isn't affected by crop factor field of view is. Using an EF lens on a crop camera just means you use less of the glass to cover the sensor.

Sigma's 12-24 is a good example its a 12-24 on a 1ds/5d, and equivalent of a 16-31 on a 1d and 19-38 on a 1.6 crop e.g. 450d etc

 

[Bidz]

Personally, I wouldn't start buying EF-S lenses, even for now. Invest in good glass before you upgrade, and if it's EF lenses you buy then you won't be limited to having to buy cropped sensor cameras or selling lenses.

CaptainPenguins low light point is very good - and I was also wondering about your back-up?

There are many cameras that might suit your ambitions better as a main body, with the 450D as a fallback. Have a look at Canon's prosumer range.

 

[arad85]

Maybe FOV was wrong to use then, sorry.

The 17-55 F.28 is designed for my crop sensor but obviously the 16-35mm isn't so is equivalent to the 25-56 so obviously not wide enough, hence me saying I'd need the 10-22 to compensate which is why I was thinking for now the ES-S 18-55 F2.8.

The focal length of the lens doesn't change depending on the body it is on or the type of lens it is. An EF-S 17-55 would produce exactly the same field of view at 17mm as does the EF 17-40L at 17mm or the 16-35 at 17mm on the 450D.

The EF-S lenses just have a smaller image circle as they only have to project the image onto a smaller sensor (the APS-C crop sensors). This makes them cheaper to produce (although you might not think that given the price of the 17-55!)

 

[Vicki]

Thanks Captain Penguin (love the name by the way!)

A tripod did come into my thinking, but it could get a bit chaotic using this during the ceremony then getting into place for them walking down the aisle etc.

I've been asked by a friend to shoot her wedding, but it's in a lovely barn and the photographers aren't allowed up front to the ceremony but are stuck at the back which is why I'm concerned about the low light.

I'm just thinking to get a loan and get the kit I want and need...afterall it's an invest right?!

 

[Bidz]

Thanks Captain Penguin (love the name by the way!)

A tripod did come into my thinking, but it could get a bit chaotic using this during the ceremony then getting into place for them walking down the aisle etc.

I've been asked by a friend to shoot her wedding, but it's in a lovely barn and the photographers aren't allowed up front to the ceremony but are stuck at the back which is why I'm concerned about the low light.

I'm just thinking to get a loan and get the kit I want and need...afterall it's an invest right?!

Vicki, can we see some of your shots?

Don't forget you can hire lenses! And if you're organised enough a tripod shouldn't be a problem.

 

[Vicki]

I'm a bit confused by all this now. I have done loads of research and was talking to a lady in a camera shop the other day and it was my understanding that using the EF lenses on the cropped bodies give a different length, for example, she said my 50mm f1.8 but equivalent to an 85mm view.

I've read also saying that using a 70-200 f2.8 on a cropped body in theory gives 112-320 so is great for that extra length, but obviously the wide angle lenses are where there can be problems.

When would you all suggest using a tripod? During the ceremony if I'm up close with the couple or if I'm far away? If I'm far away surely the whole point of the IS is to avoid blurry pics?! And the tripod wouldn't really help my light situation would it?!

I'll have a look at the prosumer bodies. Thank you everyone.

 

[arad85]

I'm a bit confused by all this now. I have done loads of research and was talking to a lady in a camera shop the other day and it was my understanding that using the EF lenses on the cropped bodies give a different length, for example, she said my 50mm f1.8 but equivalent to an 85mm view.

I've read also saying that using a 70-200 f2.8 on a cropped body in theory gives 112-320 so is great for that extra length

Kinda, sorta... although the 50mm is actually 80mm effective. The one bit of extra information you are missing out is you also have to do that with the EF-S lenses, so the 17-55 EF-S is 27-88 equivalent - it's just you can't put that lens on a full frame body because mechanically it will foul the mirror lift.

All the effective focal length is telling you is what focal lengths you would need to put on a full frame camera to get the same field of view you get from your 450D

Have a read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crop_factor

 

[LongLensPhotography]

I'm a bit confused by all this now. I have done loads of research and was talking to a lady in a camera shop the other day and it was my understanding that using the EF lenses on the cropped bodies give a different length, for example, she said my 50mm f1.8 but equivalent to an 85mm view.

I've read also saying that using a 70-200 f2.8 on a cropped body in theory gives 112-320 so is great for that extra length, but obviously the wide angle lenses are where there can be problems.

When would you all suggest using a tripod? During the ceremony if I'm up close with the couple or if I'm far away? If I'm far away surely the whole point of the IS is to avoid blurry pics?! And the tripod wouldn't really help my light situation would it?!

I'll have a look at the prosumer bodies. Thank you everyone.

I suggest doing some 'proper' research and lots of practice before jumping in on to the weddings. It is not all about expensive lenses and pressing the button.

450D might be enough for a start, I think I would survive with one if I really had to with the right glass.
In darker places, you will really want fast primes. f/1.4 or even 1.2 if you can't or don't want to use flashes. f/2.8 is not that fast, but convenient with a zoom.

 

[Vicki]

Just looked at the 7D and it looks excellent. It's quite pricey, but for me, for now would people recommend this instead of the obviously amazing 5D MKII?

I've done a load of research already, including reading that link of Wikipedia! I love primes, hence me buying my first one recently.

It's all confusing me as there is so much choice! I just want to get some decent glass with a good focal range but am willing to upgrade the body if needed.

I know it's not all about pressing buttons and expensive lenses, I have shot 2 weddings, one with my standard kit, the other with my 450D, 15-85 f3.5/f5.6 and a 50mm f1.8 prime.

I just want to get my kit prepared before going into it properly.

Thanks for your help everyone.

Vicki

 

[Bidz]

The 7D Is a good body. However the 550D shares virtually the same sensor and is more like the 450D so you might find it an easier transition.

I'd still like to see some of your shots?

 

[ishoot]

Hi Vicki,

If its any help, I shot a wedding last year on my 400D with 24-70 and 70-200. I found that even at f2.8, you may still need to boost ISO so grain will be an issue and although some of the grainy images turned out quite interesting, i would have preferred a better high ISO body.

I think if you are going to earn money from this then bite the bullet and invest in 5d2 and L glass. You'll get better image quality and could end up with more clients or charging more, hence recouping your investment sooner.

really a case of chicken or egg...

good luck.

 

[CSB]

Just looked at the 7D and it looks excellent. It's quite pricey, but for me, for now would people recommend this instead of the obviously amazing 5D MKII?

Sorry to ask so many questions!

Vicki

I have a few questions for you Vicki, if you answer them honestly this will make it easier for others to help you.

1. You have worked on two weddings, so how did you find them?
2. What was the hardest part of the job?
3. Where did things not go as well as you had hoped?
4. Please post one of your best shots and one that didn't quite go to plan and explain to us how you feel about each shot, what went right and what went wrong?

The answers to these questions will help us recommend what you need.

 

[MatBin]

If your ultimate aim is great tonal range and high image quality then a Full Frame camera is the (only) way to go. Remember EF-S lens WONT fit, so dont buy any if you are thinking of going FF soon, unless you want to sell and buy something else later, I doubt you'll lose much money if you took that route.
Most (?) wedding togs I've seen seem to use 5D's, the 7D is a good camera and tbh unless people are being super critical and comparing two shots (one on 7D the other on 5D) I doubt the 7D images would be criticised.
From what I've seen of the last 4 weddings I have been to (as a guest) its the "image" not the image "quality" that has most people talking, generally they wouldnt know the difference between something shot on a 1,5 or 10D
The 450 you have will probably suffer more from missed/oof shots because of its lesser quality AF system rather than anything else, or at least that is what we found when we had a 400.

Matt

 

[Bidz]

its the "image" not the image "quality" that has most people talking, generally they wouldnt know the difference between something shot on a 1,5 or 10D

I'd argue this is generally true of most photography, anyway.

 

[Vicki]

I'll sort out some a few shots in a while for you all (I shot them in raw).

In answer to your questions

1)You have worked on two weddings, so how did you find them?


One was a school friend, my friend's husband's sister loved the shots and asked me to shoot her wedding to.

2)What was the hardest part of the job?


Definately getting the colours and clear shots during the ceremony. I bought a white/grey card and custom balanced to help.

3)Where did things not go as well as you had hoped?

The ceremony section.

4)Please post one of your best shots and one that didn't quite go to plan and explain to us how you feel about each shot, what went right and what went wrong?

Will do

I'm now thinking of maybe investing in the 5D MK11 with the 24-70mm and keeping the 450D as a backup and using the 18-55 kit lens for take the group shots.

That way I have a better camera with some great glass but will also get the wide angle.

I would save up for the 24-70 f2.8 IS.

I just think if I'm going to buy a 7D I might as well get the top camera that I know gives better ISO range and will be great in low light weddings, rather than the 7D which is obviously great for action/sports/ wildlife but not necessarily weddings.

What does everyone think?

 

[zerodeluxe]

I'm in a similar boat - with a 450D... I posted a week or so back about upgrading my body - I'll be looking at either a 5DmkII or a 7D.... but might get better glass first.... I've got a wedding next month for a friend, but doubt I can afford much before then. I'll have a borrow a back up too!

 

[CSB]

I'll sort out some a few shots in a while for you all (I shot them in raw).

In answer to your questions

1)You have worked on two weddings, so how did you find them?


One was a school friend, my friend's husband's sister loved the shots and asked me to shoot her wedding to.

2)What was the hardest part of the job?


Definately getting the colours and clear shots during the ceremony. I bought a white/grey card and custom balanced to help.

3)Where did things not go as well as you had hoped?

The ceremony section.

4)Please post one of your best shots and one that didn't quite go to plan and explain to us how you feel about each shot, what went right and what went wrong?

Will do

I'm now thinking of maybe investing in the 5D MK11 with the 24-70mm and keeping the 450D as a backup and using the 18-55 kit lens for take the group shots.

That way I have a better camera with some great glass but will also get the wide angle.

I would save up for the 24-70 f2.8 IS.

I just think if I'm going to buy a 7D I might as well get the top camera that I know gives better ISO range and will be great in low light weddings, rather than the 7D which is obviously great for action/sports/ wildlife but not necessarily weddings.

What does everyone think?

For the first question, please explain your experiences not how you got the job

Second question, when you say clear shots do you mean someone was in your way or getting the shots in focus?

Third question, what went wrong in the ceremony section and what would resolve the issue?

Looking forward to seeing your pictures. Remember the more you tell us about your experience, the more we can point you in the right direction.

 

[Vicki]

Can I upload the images or do they have to be linked via URL? I can't seem to upload them!

In answer to you CSB, sorry I'm so silly, totally misinterpreted your first question!! I found them really good fun while also being stressful and a challenge to make sure I got the shots.

Clear as in colours and nice exposure etc.

What went wrong, I'd say my position was wrong. The registrar told me to stand one side and I should have been the other side so the bride was facing me. The noise factor. I had my ISO set to 800 and some of the pics looks grainy. I'm also not happy with the colours.

My memory card screwed up right before I entered the ceremony room so I quickly changed it over but I had white balanced images on the other memory card that obviously I couldn't use and didn't have time to sort out. I set everything to RAW to change best in PP and I'm using Aperture.

You're all going to think my pics look rubbish!

 

[zerodeluxe]

Nonsense! I've posted mine - I got honest criticism, even if they were saying I could improve a lot - and if you'll get tips to put right anything that might not have gone well!

 

[Vicki]

Ok, so I'm now thinking this combo. I really want to keep my investment (for the timebeing under £3k)

So I'm thinking the 5D MKII with the 24-70 f2.8.

I can use my 450D as a backup lens, but also use the 18-55 kit lens for the group shots.

The 24-70 can be used on my 450D effectively giving me a longer focal range equivalent of 38-112mm.

How does that sound?

I'll stop soon, promise!

Zerodeluxe, it's ok, I'm hard skinned! I just can't figure out how to connect them to the post without using flickr or something similiar. I'd rather just upload and attach them!

Any ideas?

 

[arad85]

I can use my 450D as a backup lens, but also use the 18-55 kit lens for the group shots.

You'll be hard pressed to use the 450D as a backup lens

Why do you think you'll be able to use the 18-55 for the group shots? The 5D2 is a full frame camera. The field of view of the 18-55 on the 450D will be the same as a 29-88mm lens on the 5D2. The 24-70 on the 5D2 will give you a wider field of view than the 18-55 does on the 450D.....

 

[lexie]

Can I upload the images or do they have to be linked via URL? I can't seem to upload them!

In answer to you CSB, sorry I'm so silly, totally misinterpreted your first question!! I found them really good fun while also being stressful and a challenge to make sure I got the shots.

Clear as in colours and nice exposure etc.

What went wrong, I'd say my position was wrong. The registrar told me to stand one side and I should have been the other side so the bride was facing me. The noise factor. I had my ISO set to 800 and some of the pics looks grainy. I'm also not happy with the colours.

My memory card screwed up right before I entered the ceremony room so I quickly changed it over but I had white balanced images on the other memory card that obviously I couldn't use and didn't have time to sort out. I set everything to RAW to change best in PP and I'm using Aperture.

You're all going to think my pics look rubbish!

you'll have to link the url from a hosting site(flickr, photobucket etc.)

is the 500d really that bad for noise at iso800? i shot at the weekend at iso1600-3200 in dull light and they came out alright with a bit of noise reduction in adobe camera raw and photoshop. it wasn't a wedding so perhaps they didn't need to be pin sharp but i was still pretty happy and so was the person i was shooting for.

 

[postcardcv]

Ok, so I'm now thinking this combo. I really want to keep my investment (for the timebeing under £3k)

So I'm thinking the 5D MKII with the 24-70 f2.8.

I can use my 450D as a backup lens, but also use the 18-55 kit lens for the group shots.

The 24-70 can be used on my 450D effectively giving me a longer focal range equivalent of 38-112mm.

How does that sound?

The 24-70 is an excellent choice but there will be times when you need/want more reach - I wouldn't want to shoot a wedding without something longer.

 

[Vicki]

Ooh haha. It's all this lens/camera talk that's doing my head in and confusing me!

See, that's where my knowledge falls down.

So basically, if I got the 5D then the 24-70 should be ok for the ceremony and group shots as it's on the full frame...arr I see!

Maybe it's too much of a step up for me and maybe just save £500 for now, buy the 7D and a 24-70mm (and in this case use my 18-55 kit lens if needed?)

I'm soooo confused!

 

[postcardcv]

Ooh haha. It's all this lens/camera talk that's doing my head in and confusing me!

See, that's where my knowledge falls down.

So basically, if I got the 5D then the 24-70 should be ok for the ceremony and group shots as it's on the full frame...arr I see!

Maybe it's too much of a step up for me and maybe just save £500 for now, buy the 7D and a 24-70mm (and in this case use my 18-55 kit lens if needed?)

I'm soooo confused!

don't rush into a decision that you may regret later... do you know anyone local to you who shoots weddings? If so why not try and chat to them about it and if possible see if you can tag along and help out at a wedding - seeing how a working pro shots a wedding will help you to work out what you need.

 

[arad85]

I'm soooo confused!

Stop. Take a deep breath. Don't buy anything until you understand what you need and why you need it.

The 5D2 isn't a step above the 7D in any technical way. In fact, the 7D requires more setup as you have the autofocus system to understand too (when Ms arad85 uses the 7D, it's put on centre point single shot focus!). There are a number of reasons why FF is desirable and they aren't something you need to learn - they are there simply due to the sensor being bigger.

I'd echo trying to second shoot a wedding with an experienced photographer.

 

[Vicki]

I've done this in the past so don't feel it would be an advantage to me right at the moment.

I have another wedding in October so just want to get my kit up to standard.

I know the 5D is better for low light and noise reduction etc. But coming from a 450D the 7D will be a massive step for me so will probably be fine. I like the fact the 7D has a load of features to learn from and the 19AF points.

I don't know how many weddings I'll do after this one in Oct, if any, so I think the 7D could be the way to go and it's obviously ace for wildlife/action and sports which I also love shooting.

I do need to take a breath though!

Thanks everyone.

 

[Bidz]

Thanks everyone.

No worries, make sure you get back to TP with the results!

 

[Little John]

Good luck with it, I started with a 500D, asked to do a wedding which I refused then told it would be point and shoot photos only if I didn't.

A lot of research and I spent a few grand on lenses 24-70, 70-200 2.8IS. Then came the 2nd body (450D) as I discovered changing lenses took time and was a pain in the butt and for the backup if I needed it. Next a 2nd flash for it was also a pain swapping it from one camera to the other. and while I was at it I got the 10-22mm. Other than a few wide shots in the church I used it just for some funky angles at the party and it only comes out occasionally I do enjoy using it though.

The church was quite bright compared to others, I went and tested a week before and my 500D packed up thank god for the 450D but I even arranged for another camera. The 500D came back from canon the day before the wedding. But even though it was bright I still struggled yes even with L glass the 450D and the 500D dont really cope to well, I was able to get the shots but I would have liked to have been able to up the shutter speed more I was running at the bare minimum on what anyone sane would use. It was all about timing the shots and using supports to shoot at points where there was no movement from the B&G. It worked but some leaway would have been nice I wouldn't like to do it again.

Shooting a concert in a dark church or a dark room at a prom or party no problem there isnt really any requirement to get the shot in a single shutter release they dance or what ever for a few minutes but a wedding putting the ring on the finger or the handing over the bride's hand by her Dad happen once and if you miss it you cant get it again. If I was doing it again I would want a pair of 5D's over my shoulders.

 

[Vicki]

I know the 5D is the way to go but for me and for the forseeable future I think the 7D will do me just fine.

I'll invest in some good glass and see where I go from there. At the end of the day I am used to having an ISO max of 1,200 so going from that to 12,000 should be fine.

Maybe it's silly to save £500 and get a camera just below the one I want but after reading reviews it seems like a really decent camera and loads of people say its fine for weddings.

I'll see I guess.

Thanks everyone.

Vicki

 

[stupar]

Maybe it's too much of a step up for me and maybe just save £500 for now, buy the 7D and a 24-70mm (and in this case use my 18-55 kit lens if needed?)

Personally I would try and avoid using the 18-55 kit lens altogether especially if you were planning on strapping it to a 7D, which in my eyes would be a waste of a good body. Unless I'm missing the point somewhere.

I would use your 15-85 on either body before the 18-55 for group shots.

 

[Iphotouk]

How about maybe even going down the route of a 50D body? Unless u really need to video side of things that is. Then you could keep you 450D as a backup body and invest some serious money in decent glass. The 50D is a fantastic body and at a fraction of the price of the 5D & 7D.

Just a thought and all depends on what u actually want/need from your next camera.

 

[CSB]

Just a thought and all depends on what u actually want/need from your next camera.

This is what I was trying to get at with all my questions. No offence to Vicki but I don't think she knows what she needs from a new lens or body. If you can't identify what you need from your equipment then I think its just buying for the sake of buying more equipment at the moment. The only thing she has mentioned is wanting better high ISO performance, but having faster lenses is going to give her at least an extra 2 stops of light (f5.6 to f2.8 for a zoom, more from a prime) so that might solve that problem.

 

[Chris Primadona]

I loved my 450d but you will find noise to be a problem with any lens system for some shoots. Even shooting with the 1.4 50mm I found myself wanting to go higher iso than the camera could handle for certain low light stuff. By all means give it a go with the new lens and see how it goes, but I feel you will become a bit frustrated like I was with keeping the low light stuff noise free and sharp.

 

[Bidz]

I loved my 450d but you will find noise to be a problem with any lens system for some shoots. Even shooting with the 1.4 50mm I found myself wanting to go higher iso than the camera could handle for certain low light stuff. By all means give it a go with the new lens and see how it goes, but I feel you will become a bit frustrated like I was with keeping the low light stuff noise free and sharp.

This is one of the reasons I upgraded, albeit only to a 40D.