Used equipment prices

sammyd56

sammyd56

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From time to time I see people on here saying they won't pay "inflated prices" for second-hand equipment due to the price rises.

I don't see the logic in this - with prices rising across the board, and with, I think it's fair to say, the majority of people selling equipment here at TP looking to upgrade, surely we all have to accept that the market is how it is?
 
Have you ever heard of Negative Equity?
 
I can't say I have actually. Have just googled and got a load of links related to mortgages... would you care to explain the relevance?
 
Any Canon camera will be negative equity after about 6 months, (according to most sites thats have buy and sell forums)

Once Canon announces a new camera ,the prices of the "Classic" cameras now devalue quite a bit. Those wanting to upgrade ,try to sell real fast while the prices are somewhat reasonable.

Take the 5D for example, no second hand ones were available 6 months ago. Now you have so many to choose from.
 
OK, round figures here,

Last year you saw a lens you wished to purchase. Your camera shop was selling it at £900 but you didn’t buy it. This year it is £1200 and everyone is captured in the hype that prices will keep going up so you decide to buy. You may even borrow a few bucks to fund your purchase. Let’s say you put a deposit down of £500 and borrow £700 and walk away with your lens.

At some time in the near future prices could return to where they were last year or lower, so the new price of your lens will be back to £900, second-hand prices fall so the value of your lens may be £600 or less.

The problem is, you owe £700 on the lens, and hence you are in negative equity.
 
Camera bodies tend to devalue as steelydan says, this applies equally to Canon, Nikon, Sony, Pentax etc. too when new models appear, however over the past year with the pound falling against the yen etc prices have not fallen as much as they ordinarily might.
Lenses are a different kettle of fish as they remain in manufacturers line-ups longer and people who bought lenses a year or so ago may well be able to sell them for more than they paid. Is this wrong? Not it my opinion as things tend to fetch what they are worth, and if you're still getting a good buy relative to a brand new one whats the problem?
 
It's fair to suggest that secondhand prices mirror new retails. Just because we're all here on TP doesn't necssarily mean one should sell at significantly less than market value.

I sold a Nikkor 300/4 for £750 here a couple months ago. Just because I bought it for £800 last year, doesn't mean I couldn't sell it for £900 now once the 'new retail' price heads over £1200.

It's not pretty and it's not charity, but it's just commodity and demand, simple market economics.

If prices head back down, so be it. Secondhand prices will aswell. But the fact remains that anything for sale now is for purchase now - we're consumers, we're not speculating on this stuff. It's worth what it's worth - and it's either secondhand prices or buy a new one.

JM2C..
 
steelydan said:
Any Canon camera will be negative equity after about 6 months, (according to most sites thats have buy and sell forums)

Once Canon announces a new camera ,the prices of the "Classic" cameras now devalue quite a bit. Those wanting to upgrade ,try to sell real fast while the prices are somewhat reasonable.

Take the 5D for example, no second hand ones were available 6 months ago. Now you have so many to choose from.
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Must be a Canon thing, as Nikon bodies seem to hold their money quite well - The D50 and D70 have been selling secondhand for the same sort of money for years now and The D40 sells secondhand for only about £50 less than new, despite having been upstaged long ago by the 40x and 60. As for stuff like the Fuji s5..:bonk:
 
Would be interested to see how the D40 second hand prices change now they've been discontinued though Flash.
 
From time to time I see people on here saying they won't pay "inflated prices" for second-hand equipment due to the price rises.
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Well they won't get what ever they are after then will they.

If they want something, they'll have to pay the market price.
 
I agree prices are high at the momment but what I dont understand is why when most other things such as TV s etc are coming down is it because we are just too willing and to quick to change cameras just because a new model comes out
Bob
 
Bob said:
I agree prices are high at the momment but what I dont understand is why when most other things such as TV s etc are coming down is it because we are just too willing and to quick to change cameras just because a new model comes out
Bob
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To some extent, yes, but the market for TVs and similar goods is far greater than the market for DSLRs. There is much more competition for your money, particularly in the present economic conditions, and this tends to force prices down.

DSLRs are also "upgraded" more often than, and there does seem to be an obsessive need to have the latest and greatest in some quarters, particularly in the US. Check out dpreview. I'm amazed by the number of people wanting to get their names on a preorder list, as soon as a new product is announced, and long before it is even released. Of course, many of the US dealers offer easy returns. Try it, and just send it back for a refund if you don't like it.

The real value of anything is what someone else is willing to pay for it, when you want to sell. This has nothing to do with the current street price, but I do have a feeling prices would drop if customers just dug their heels in and refused to pay prices they find unacceptable. This is just a hobby for most of us. I live in South Africa, and we had a similar situation with car prices a few years ago. They were sky high - some export models made in SA were selling for 30% less in Australia - but the manufacturers increased them regularly and customers queued to pay up, resulting in record sales every quarter. The government brought in new credit control legislation, and the industry took a serious knock. Sales collapsed and some dealers went out of business, but the rest seem to be doing all right so there must be enough fat in the pricing to keep them going.
 
Bob said:
I agree prices are high at the momment but what I dont understand is why when most other things such as TV s etc are coming down is it because we are just too willing and to quick to change cameras just because a new model comes out
Bob
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It has an impact, but mostly its economies of scale. Most people have a TV so retailers can buy in more bulk, and the makers can make them in bulk, so getting all sorts of cost savings that way. The majority of people don't own a DSLR so the economies aren't there

Hugh.
 
admirable said:
Have you ever heard of Negative Equity?
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Negative equity has absolutely nothing to do with the price of camera equipment, you're just confusing the issue.

Back to the original point about camera kit versus TVs etc......you have to remember that when you say 'camera equipment', what you are *actually* talking about is top-end premium equipment.

If you look at the price of point and shoots and cheap-brand cameras, they fall just like any other cheap piece of electricals.

If you look at the price of cheap TVs, the Grundigs, Samsungs, Toshibas etc, their prices are falling, sure. But you look at the high-end range, the Panasonics and Pioneer Kuros, they hold their value extremely well in both the new and used markets, until such time as a newer model is released.
 
richpips said:
Well they won't get what ever they are after then will they.

If they want something, they'll have to pay the market price.
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Some people are really funny about buying secondhand and prices.

(On another forum) I responded to someone that was looking for a Minolta 50/1.7 as I was in the process of getting the Sigma 1.4.

I paid (when the market was high-ish) £85 for the 50/1.7 from Ebay as it was like new (and was kept in that condition), so offered the lens for £75 because the guy was local. The market value on Ebay for the '50' at the time was more like £120 due to demand (as Sony don't make a cheap '50', and Sony DSLR's were becoming more popular) so I thought I was giving him a good deal.

He responsed saying that he wouldn't pay over £55 for the lens, because that's what one sold for 9 months ago! I walked away I put it up for sale on the forum for £85, and it sold within 5 mins.

You are right, I'm sure that guy is still looking for his £55 50/1.7 and he will be waiting a long time, unless he finds a far from perfect (read junk) example from Ebay (or unless Sony finally release a plastic fantastic 50)
 
I don't usually buy new but if I did, I would be buying something to use and I would not expect to get anything like what I paid for it if I decided to sell it.


Steve.
 
Steve Smith said:
I don't usually buy new but if I did, I would be buying something to use and I would not expect to get anything like what I paid for it if I decided to sell it.
Steve.
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no and thats not why I buy either but if you do sell its not unreasonable to ask market value for it. example - I sold a minty sigma 12-24 for slightly more than I payed for it. The small profit wasn't why I bought it, and that gain was more than wiped out by the price of a 14-24 Nikkor. If I decide to sell that at some point in the future I'll ask what market value again - no matter if that means a large loss cause prices have dropped or a gain because they've risen

Hugh
 
Steve Smith said:
I don't usually buy new but if I did, I would be buying something to use and I would not expect to get anything like what I paid for it if I decided to sell it.


Steve.
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I don't think anyone would *expect* to get nearly what they paid new for some kit.....but if you'd bought a lens 18 months ago for £800, which had gone up to £1200, and was selling for £1000 on the used market when you came to sell......

Would you really sell it for £650-700? You'd just turn your nose up at £250-300 that could pay for more camera goodies? :)
 
2nd hand sell for 25-33% less than new - glass holds its price very well compared to bodies.

New price increases mean more people are willing to buy second hand driving that price up as well - maybe even reducing the percentage of discount because demmand it outweighing supply
 
sammyd56 said:
From time to time I see people on here saying they won't pay "inflated prices" for second-hand equipment due to the price rises.
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It may be that they are refering to the asking prices for secondhand equipment compared to the new price? I do slightly agree with this as I have seen, not just on here, 2,3 and 4 year old lenses being offered for only 10-12% less than the new price!
 
admirable said:
It may be that they are refering to the asking prices for secondhand equipment compared to the new price? I do slightly agree with this as I have seen, not just on here, 2,3 and 4 year old lenses being offered for only 10-12% less than the new price!
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Another good one, mainly on eBay, is when people claim its much cheaper than in the shops because they are comparing to the Jessops price. Often it is more expensive than the cheapest shop on camera price buster
 
It may be that they are refering to the asking prices for secondhand equipment compared to the new price? I do slightly agree with this as I have seen, not just on here, 2,3 and 4 year old lenses being offered for only 10-12% less than the new price!
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Some buyers and sellers don't do their research. They look at the rrp then base their secondhand price on that.

The results of that can often be seen on ebay, where people pay more for a sh lens, than they could buy one new.

Also 10-12% of £2000-£6000 is still a significant saving on a lens. The more expensive glass comes up on the market less often, and I would guess keeps a much higher proportion of it's original sale value.
 
admirable said:
It may be that they are refering to the asking prices for secondhand equipment compared to the new price? I do slightly agree with this as I have seen, not just on here, 2,3 and 4 year old lenses being offered for only 10-12% less than the new price!
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isn't condition more important than age for 2nd hand pricing?

Hugh
 
At present, i feel that the current market is crazy!
What i am not happy about, is people buying a second hand lens for cheap 12 months ago, and then selling it on for a profit now. People are cashing in to make a quick buck.
Yes, i understand that if people are upgrading, then they need to find the cash somewhere to fund the upgrade at a new higher price, but its when people are cashing in on things to make money on their purchase then thats what gets me.

I guess i'm just one of those people who think that a loyal approach to other photographers is better then making money on a purchase.

Mike
 
MJ Stebbings said:
At present, i feel that the current market is crazy!
What i am not happy about, is people buying a second hand lens for cheap 12 months ago, and then selling it on for a profit now. People are cashing in to make a quick buck.
Yes, i understand that if people are upgrading, then they need to find the cash somewhere to fund the upgrade at a new higher price, but its when people are cashing in on things to make money on their purchase then thats what gets me.

I guess i'm just one of those people who think that a loyal approach to other photographers is better then making money on a purchase.

Mike
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agree about people making a quick buck, and a loyal approach but turn it on its head a moment, if prices do come back down would people accept a 2nd hand price based on the original purchase price and not the current market?

Hugh
 
I disagree. Nobody is cashing in on their purchase, they're just lucky that something they owned happens to a] have spiralled upwards in new price, and b] have a collectable resale value to begin with.

It works both ways, too - ever bought something new only to find that the bottom drops out of that particular market - and you can't sell it because it's worth nothing?

Market value fluctuates for new and secondhand stuff. It's not fair at times, but there's only one thing we can do about it. If we don't like the price, we shouldn't buy. Maybe later it'll be cheaper in the future. Maybe, maybe not.
 
What i am not happy about, is people buying a second hand lens for cheap 12 months ago, and then selling it on for a profit now. People are cashing in to make a quick buck.
Yes, i understand that if people are upgrading, then they need to find the cash somewhere to fund the upgrade at a new higher price, but its when people are cashing in on things to make money on their purchase then thats what gets me.

I guess i'm just one of those people who think that a loyal approach to other photographers is better then making money on a purchase.
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Whilst I'm sort of with you and the sentiment. I know for example that the lowest historical price on CPB shown for a new 70-200L f/4 was £374 which is near enough the price I have just sold one for on here (and originally paid for it SH).

However the new price is now £525.

So whatever the price used to be, this is the current market place.

I've yet to see anyone selling a year old minty 70-200L for ~£250 because they only paid £374 for it ? Plenty around @ £400 though. :)
 
MJ Stebbings said:
At present, i feel that the current market is crazy!
What i am not happy about, is people buying a second hand lens for cheap 12 months ago, and then selling it on for a profit now. People are cashing in to make a quick buck.
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Is that really so? I think people tend to forget that monetary amounts has nothing to do with the value of things.

It's not really a profit because of the inflation everywhere - the amount of money differs but what you can buy with it (it's value) stays the same. In other words what you can get 12 month ago for example for 600 pounds and today for 800 pounds in terms of products, paying bills etc may be the same - so where exactly you are profiting in this???
 
Example:
I buy said Minty 70-200F4L for £250 12 months ago. I see the market has risen in value, i'm not after an upgrade but think that if i sell the lens for £350-400 now because i dont really use it, thus making a profit of £100-150.
Dalex 257, how hard is that to understand? I'm sure there is a bit of that going on.

Its the idea of it really that gets my goat. I understand if they were like "Well, i want to get a 70-200 F2.8L so need to get as much cash as i can to fund that because the current market has increased" but i'm still sure that there are a few people cashing in on the current financial climate

Mike
 
MJ Stebbings said:
Example:
I buy said Minty 70-200F4L for £250 12 months ago. I see the market has risen in value, i'm not after an upgrade but think that if i sell the lens for £350-400 now because i dont really use it, thus making a profit of £100-150.
Dalex 257, how hard is that to understand? I'm sure there is a bit of that going on.

Its the idea of it really that gets my goat. I understand if they were like "Well, i want to get a 70-200 F2.8L so need to get as much cash as i can to fund that because the current market has increased" but i'm still sure that there are a few people cashing in on the current financial climate

Mike
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The buyer will have originally bought the lens presumably so that they could take some pictures with it, not because they expected it to rise in value?

Likewise anyone buying one now would be doing the same. I can't imagine them thinking, "prices are at a recent historic high, therefore I better wait until the prices have gone back down". Either they need the lens or they don't.

As for "cashing in" unless they are giving up photography, most everything has gone up in price. So any "profit" will be swallowed up in their next purchase.
 
I bought something nice for myself recently - although I intend to use it, I think it has a decent resale value and there'll be plenty of interest.

When I come to sell it, the new price for this recent "present to myself" will probably have gone up, so I intend to sell at a going market rate - which I hope will make me a tidy profit. I'm not looking for a profit - that's not why I bought it - but it'd be nice.

I'm talking about my house - and I'm certainly not going to sell it for 50k because that's what it was ten years ago. It's just good old economics at work - if I price it too high, buyers would balk - too low, and I'd be a fool. The only accurate valuation is the one given at the time of sale.
 
mid_gen said:
but if you'd bought a lens 18 months ago for £800, which had gone up to £1200, and was selling for £1000 on the used market when you came to sell......

Would you really sell it for £650-700? You'd just turn your nose up at £250-300 that could pay for more camera goodies? :)
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With something that valuable it seems reasonable to get something approaching market value for it.

Most of my 20 - 30 year old lenses though cost me about £30 each. I value them at £0 as soon as I have bought them.


Steve.
 
MJ Stebbings said:
Example:
I buy said Minty 70-200F4L for £250 12 months ago. I see the market has risen in value, i'm not after an upgrade but think that if i sell the lens for £350-400 now because i dont really use it, thus making a profit of £100-150.
Dalex 257, how hard is that to understand?
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I think that it is you who does not understand it really...

Using your example 12 month ago £250 would buy you that lens or say pay your utilities bill for the month or pay for a 2 week worth food shopping (for example). Now, today, the £400 will get you the same lens, pay your utility bills for the month or pay for a 2 week worth food shopping. So if I bought my lens 12 month ago for £250 and sell it today for £400 - what exactly am I gaining in terms of value????? It would be a profit if I go 12 months back in time and can use it then at those values/prices but not now.

What you are confusing again is the value of things and its monetary expression - value changes somewhat but has no relation to money (it is always defined by demand/market, includes depreciation if used etc). Monetary expression of the value is different at a different times and in different countries - is it really so difficult to grasp? What you would buy with 10000 pounds 20 years ago is nowhere near equivalent to what you can buy with the same amount today (you could have bought much more for that amount back then) so why you expect the price expression of the value to stay the same over time??
 
That's assuming that the increase in price in lenses is the same proportionally to everything else.

Using the £10,000 example - 20 years ago it would buy a hell of a lot of house but nowardays it would get nothing whereas you claim that it would get a lot more nowardays
 
That's assuming that the increase in price in lenses is the same proportionally to everything else
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Maybe we could set up a lens futures market.

Only Canon ones of course ;)
 
Prices rise, prices fall. People will pay whatever they feel is a good price at that time. Yes there are some people who will buy and sell on for a profit (in all areas) - they only make a profit if prices rise (obviously !) and if someone is prepared to pay the price they are then asking. If no one buys it - no sale, therefore no profit ! They have been speculative in the first place - prices may not have changed much / if at all and so they would have to sell at a lower price than they bought for and so would be out of pocket.

I think the main thing is - if you don't like the price - don't buy it :thumbs:
 
MJ Stebbings said:
Example:
I buy said Minty 70-200F4L for £250 12 months ago. I see the market has risen in value, i'm not after an upgrade but think that if i sell the lens for £350-400 now because i dont really use it, thus making a profit of £100-150.
Dalex 257, how hard is that to understand? I'm sure there is a bit of that going on.
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If they don't use the lens then they're selling it because they don't use it. :bonk:

Unless they knew prices were going to skyrocket and their intention when buying the lens was to make a profit from it I fail to see the problem. I'm going to stick my neck out here and say that this scenario doesn't apply to anyone on here, or even if it does, the number of instances is small enough to be completely insignificant.

I don't like the implied accusations of profiteering when people sell gear for it's current market value, and it's precisely this kind of thinking that prompted me to start the thread.
 
I don't like the implied accusations of profiteering when people sell gear for it's current market value, and it's precisely this kind of thinking that prompted me to start the thread.
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I'm not bothered if someone has made a profit if they sell an item. Shops do. All I care about is that at the moment of buying the item, that it is for me, good value for the price I paid, and fit for purpose.
 
MJ Stebbings said:
Its the idea of it really that gets my goat. I understand if they were like "Well, i want to get a 70-200 F2.8L so need to get as much cash as i can to fund that because the current market has increased" but i'm still sure that there are a few people cashing in on the current financial climate
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So it's OK to cash-in and make a profit, as long as you spend the profit on photographic gear?:cuckoo:
 
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