Unscrupulous people out there...!

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barsbyart

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Paul Barsby
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Hi everyone!

I've just been reading kungfukid's post 'help with pricing a job' and my attention was caught by Cobra's reply (post #14); the gist of which is that there are people trawling sites like TP for cheap images and is this a good thing?

Thought I would share an experience of my own.

I have been using a site that, for a fee, sends me details of tog job offers that fulfil certain criteria that I nominate (area, architectural, product, model, etc). I won't name this site as I believe that the site itself is genuine BUT some of the people/companies offering work on the site are totally unscrupulous!

I first became aware of a trend or style in the wording of some of the job offers. I checked their name (where shown) and did simple google searches etc.
I found that there were a couple of advertisers that were in fact the same company and they were offering UNPAID work (gain valuable experience/add to your prtfolio/etc). More checking revealed that they organize specific photo-shoots for clients (including some large clothing retail chains) and charge HUGE fees for their services. The poor tog, of course, gets no fee for their services! I checked more... they were also getting models and make-up artists on the same basis!

So when you pass thro a shopping arcade and see the posters in clothing-shop widows showing their Spring collection it is poss that the model, m/up artist and tog did not receive a fee but someone did - a large one!

I consider this unjust and it threatens the livelihood of pro togs. (Doesn't affect me directly - not my type of togging but may affect many on TP).

New talent will always be faced with the choice of 'charge going rate' or 'get noticed' and I believe that there is a case for unpaid work where the basis is collaborative - aspiring designer needs aspiring tog - and both benefit. But for a third party to charge a large fee and then get everything done free...? Sound biz sense maybe. Morally reprehensible... definitely! Where is the incentive to pay a reasonable fee if you can get it free?

As togs we should ALL respect our own talent, charge the ' going rate' and make sure that we don't undermine ourselves or others otherwise it will 'come back to bite us' in the end!

Rant over. I will pass the baton...

:wave:
 
I totally agree with the comments. If your work is good enough to use in this way then it certainly has a value.

I can understand a two/three way agreement between togs, mua's and mods as it's constructive. What barsbyart describes is, in my opinion, destructive.
 
If people aren't astute enough to charge for their services as a photographer, model, etc, then surely it's up to them? It's like people who have photos stolen from the web by newspapers and then don't send an invoice out. You can't make people look after themselves.

Regardless though, it's an interesting discovery you've made.
 
Ian T said:
If people aren't astute enough to charge for their services as a photographer, model, etc, then surely it's up to them? It's like people who have photos stolen from the web by newspapers and then don't send an invoice out. You can't make people look after themselves.
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Nope! Can't make people look after themselves. Can't stop unscrup' people trying it on.

Can only highlight the situation and hopefully no-one on here will fall for it!

As I said above (and Treesie) there is good reason for collaborative work where nobody getting ripped-off but this sort of practice left unchecked damages the livelihood of ALL mua's, models and togs.
 
Interesting post :thumbs:
I took my ( refered to) post a stage futher here
 
barsbyart said:
As togs we should ALL respect our own talent, charge the ' going rate' and make sure that we don't undermine ourselves or others otherwise it will 'come back to bite us' in the end!
Click to expand...

"Devil's advocate"
Those other photographers, of their own accord and free-will, have chosen to go along to those shoots for the experience. The quality they have provided fits the market. Therefore is that not the going rate, at that moment? In my opinion it is.

It can be argued that truly free markets are based upon shared information, and the photographers involved *might* have changed their opinion if they knew someone else was getting paid. Or they might not.

I agree very much with the sentiment, but not with the logic. In truth nobody should really like markets, but they do establish what people are prepared to accept for a service, and set the price accordingly.

/Devil's advocate

I happen to work in an industry where market forces have pummelled me pretty much for two decades. I haven't enjoyed it, but I've learned a lot about markets!
 
Hmmm! Some interesting pov's here!

Moadib - I, too, understand market forces so let's imagine a scenario and expand a bit...

Aspiring tog 'x' just left uni with his/her BA(Hons) in photography wants to work as a pro. Takes unpaid job for experience and build pfolio - maybe with a promise of 'next time we'll pay you. (Of course they don't!)
So x now has a fantastic pfolio but cannot find paid work anywhere because everyone can get it done free by aspiring togs y,z,a2,b2 etc.

Existing pro togs with decades of experience also can no longer charge a living wage for their services.

The market for paid photography has completely disappeared.

x,y,z,a2,b2 etc and some pro togs give up, retrain to be (say) electricians and suddenly there's a surfeit of 'sparkies' and only a limited number of jobs... market forces kick-in again...

Uni's stop offering courses in photography as there's less interest now there's no hope of paid employment...

No pro togs means less investment in new equipment so new dSLRs cost more.

Obviously it's all down to individual tog choice and I'm not advocating price fixing but it strikes me that many people do not respect their own talent and perhaps do not understand the consequences.

Old joke time:

Man calls TV repairman to fix his telly.

TV repairman looks a telly for 5 minutes then kicks it! TV works. TVr Hands Man a bill for £120.

Man - "£120 for kicking my telly? Disgusting! I could have done that!"

TVr - "I'm not charging you £120 for kicking your telly; I'm charging you £120 for the thirty years I've spent learning When, Where and How hard to kick your telly." :shrug:
 
This is a really valid discussion.

I've had experiences along the same line. Contacted by a local newspaper chain because of their interest in a photograph of Herstmonceux Castle which I photographed at night when it had been specially lit with film lighting for a corporate video promo.

They wanted to use it for the cover of a supplement about Sussex. I named my price for use of the shot (which was to be honest, ridiculously cheap). They then contacted me saying they may not be able to pay me as their staff photographers could easily go and replicate the shot, which angered me somewhat as the lighting in the shot was particularly unique.

However, they did say that they would credit me for the shot with a by-line. So... I told them where to stick it, and I'm mighty glad I did. I have sold news shots to the papers before and they pay for each photo and provide a by-line so this was a completely bum deal.

I must admit I did feel a little arrogant demanding payment at first (not being a very established tog) but the more I thought about it, the more I felt I did the right thing and I would encourage others to value their work and skills rather than giving their time for free only to let someone else cash in on their skills.
 
I used to work as a TV cameraman. There are hundreds/thousands of people who work for nothing in TV, and many more who work for peanuts. It has dragged all the rates down.

Back in 1990, I would charge £250 per eight hour day, plus expenses. I hear of many people working today (18 years on) for £250 per day, including expenses........

These people who work for free/peanuts are screwing it up for all of us. It's a slippery slope...........
 
JumboBeef said:
I used to work as a TV cameraman. There are hundreds/thousands of people who work for nothing in TV, and many more who work for peanuts. It has dragged all the rates down.

These people who work for free/peanuts are screwing it up for all of us. It's a slippery slope...........
Click to expand...

It's so true - and quite depressing at that!

I was working for a company (though on a freelance basis), and for a particular shoot they got the work experience guy to edit a corporate video for a client who thought they were employing (and paying for) a professional team. Glad to say I have nothing to do with them anymore.
 
barsbyart said:
Hmmm! Some interesting pov's here!

Moadib - I, too, understand market forces so let's imagine a scenario and expand a bit...

Aspiring tog 'x' just left uni with his/her BA(Hons) in photography wants to work as a pro. Takes unpaid job for experience and build pfolio - maybe with a promise of 'next time we'll pay you. (Of course they don't!)
So x now has a fantastic pfolio but cannot find paid work anywhere because everyone can get it done free by aspiring togs y,z,a2,b2 etc.

Existing pro togs with decades of experience also can no longer charge a living wage for their services.
Click to expand...

If the Pros cannot demonstrate a skills gap between them and the amateurs (which the market is willing to pay for), then perhaps that is what should happen?

The market for paid photography has completely disappeared.

x,y,z,a2,b2 etc and some pro togs give up, retrain to be (say) electricians and suddenly there's a surfeit of 'sparkies' and only a limited number of jobs... market forces kick-in again...
Click to expand...

Which means there are fewer photographers, rising (per photographer) demand for their services, and prices rise, stabilising at a new level.

Uni's stop offering courses in photography as there's less interest now there's no hope of paid employment...

No pro togs means less investment in new equipment so new dSLRs cost more.
Click to expand...

Well, either demand would be recovering from the pro's, or all the new amateurs would be buying gear. The demand would be growing if anything.

Obviously it's all down to individual tog choice and I'm not advocating price fixing but it strikes me that many people do not respect their own talent and perhaps do not understand the consequences.
Click to expand...

As I said before, I recognise and agree with the sentiment. However most of the arguments I see on this are from pros who think the solution to falling rates is to deny amateurs the freedom to offer free services to get themselves started. I don't agree that limiting the freedom of someone else to benefit oneself is a solution.

The company I am with are the largest in the world at what we do, some would say having a dominant market position. We *still* need to offer free samples and such "entry tickets" in order to get where we want to go. Those are the way industry and markets find an equilibrium.

Markets are by no means perfect, but having a "pseudo-market" which is actually controlled is even worse IMO (although in fact many supposedly free markets are anything but, but that's an entirely different discussion!)
 
V interesting discussion, and glad to see most respondents 'get it'.
If you want work this time next year stick to NUJ rates. As for the freeloading wasters subverting the industry, I always say 'Of course you can have it for free. I'll get it to you just as soon as you've payed my council tax, gas bill, food shopping bill, tax bill, water rates, TV licence and service my car.........' ad infinitum....
I've no problem with newbies breaking through, and doing one or two jobs for free to get the experience, it's what we all do if the truth is told, to get on. So come and compete on a level that will sustain the industry and not kill it. If you're not being paid for a job incidentally, you're not a professional. So get the experience and then come and compete. Otherwise you risk degrading your own income, the profession, and worst of all, your own talent. :)
 
(I have just written a loooong reply but it's disappeared into the ether so here is short reply).

Moadib - my op was not against aspiring togs etc doing free/cheap work to gain experience but a warning about the way in which they are being exploited.
What is the tog really gaining? One job experience - can they continue to work unpaid for years to gain a full grounding in the necessary skills?
What use is a demonstrable skills-gap when no tog getting paid?
Original client is still paying a huge price (to middle-man) and they presumably expect a pro service. They do get an acceptable or good end-result but are they getting the best the could/should expect?
Does this benefit photography as a valid skilled profession?

How do you price a job of work? Hmmm.... What price do you place on the future of photography?
 
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