Under 18's not being named when they've commited crimes...

Braeden

Braeden

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Lee
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...Is just wrong. If they're old enough to commit the crimes and know what they are doing then they should be named and shamed like the rest of society.

On friday night my 14 year old son was attacked and beaten by a group of 6 or 7 (details are still sketchy) individuals aged between 15 and 17, while on a field near his mums house.

One has been arrested so far with anouther due to be collected today so we're told - the others they have names but no addresses yet apparently.

My son was taken to hospital as a result of the beating and is now looking at having to have reconstructive surgery to his eye to repair the damage these gits inflicted on him - and he was lucky to be so well off - had a friends' dad not been walking by when he was, then the beating would have been much more prolonged and the damage far more severe.

Being minor's they're likely to get a slap on the wrist and not much else, as is the way with our "justice" system these days.

It's just wrong on so many levels :bang:
 
Bring back corporal punishment I say. These kids will probably be from disadvantaged homes (ie they only have an xbox360 or a ps3, not both) so will probably get sent on holiday at the tax payers expense for doing this.

Sickening really.
 
No-one is officially named until they appear in court and charged. I think it is an element of protection, in case people get judged to be guilty before evidence is given in court. I personally think we have one of the best justice systems in the world and the protection of the accused whilst a case is being built is a key element of this.

What happened to your son is tragic, but why do you need to know their names? Before getting angry with the judicial system, it should be given a chance to do its job - IMO. I would think that if they were 15 to 17, the chances are that they will get something more serious than a slap on the wrist. They are over the age of criminal responsibility and so will be deemed to know what they have done is wrong.

I understand why you are angry, but we have a legal system that must be allowed to do its job before jumping to conclusions.
 
But even when theyre convicted and found guilty, they still remain anonymous, unless the judge decides not.
 
grumpybadger said:
Yes, but why do people need to know. There is a real danger of "justice" being taken outside the law.
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Yes, but we all know the law is an ass.

Name and shame that's what i say. I was watching Paul Merton in china the other day, he went to a town where they display the names of wrongdoers. Very little crime takes place there...

Bring back corporal punishment for these little toe rags who know it's wrong but do it anyway because they know they will only get a slap on the wrist. If they are doing this at a young age what are they going to be doing in a few years... Harsh punishment, that's what's needed. Make an example of these people, it's the only way to stop it !
 
:agree:
 
With what, his gun or, camera, or BMW? :D
 
grumpybadger said:
Yes, but why do people need to know. There is a real danger of "justice" being taken outside the law.
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There are two answers to that and I will use the flippant one before I answer your perfectly reasonable question with my true feelings on the matter.

firstly, there is no danger because there is no justice inside the law either - for the victims at least.

Now, my real answer is because people need to know about those that they associate with - potential partners, families, employers, teachers, fellow pupils, everybody.

You may argue about their civil rights/liberties etc, but what about the rights of victims like my son? What happened to their liberties when being punched and kicked in the head while lying unconscious on the ground?

Just because they are classed as minors in the judicial system, it should not mean that they should not be subject to the full force of the law, including being named as adults are. I think everyone will agree with me when I say they knew exactly what they were doing so it's not like you can say "they're children, they don't understand what they were doing" or blame it on youthful exuberance etc. because it just won't wash with anybody.

I will admit that on Friday night/Saturday morning I would have quite happily taken retribution in a like for like fashion but I am old and mature enough to know that it would be wrong to do so, but as it stands very few people will be aware of what they have done and are capable of doing again in the future.
 
They'll likely be dealt with by the Youth Courts which can impose a maximum of a 2 year detention and training order - the first half of which is spent inside. But a DTO is only given out to people considered to be a very high risk and have a history of offending.

More likely the offenders will get a Supervision Order or similar.

I think the problem today is the general lack of pride, respect and sense of community. Harsher sentences will do little to address that nor I suspect will naming the offenders who, given their mindset, will treat it as a trophy much as they do an ASBO. Where the system currently fails is that the punishment isn't a deterrent - in order to punish someone they have firstly care about what their losing and the younger criminals really don't seem to care about anything other than themselves. It doesn't really leave the justice system anything to deprive them of as a incentive not to offend.
 
And thus we loop back to the parents...I always say it starts with the parents.
OK It's a bit preachy of me to say so, but it always comes back to the parents. I don't have perfect kids, but I know theyll never kick someone in the head when theyre on the floor.

Never.

Why? Because I've taught them from a young age to respect other peoples feelings. No, I havent specifically ever mentioned beating someone up to them, I dont need to. I've taught them respect, and to always think of other people. From that small acorn grows the biggest trees you can imagine.
They won't stamp on someone's head.
They won't mug pensioners.
They won't steal from children smaller than them.

Thats what parents fail to do these days, instill respect and thought for other people, we live in a "Me me me" society, and "Sod everyone else".

Holding the door open for other people. Letting other people go before you in a queue, you dont see that any more, it's all "Me first, me first me me me", and hence we've grown into this society where people just don't seem to stop and give thought for others, and theyre breeding children with the same lack of decency and respect.
 
Totally agree Marcel, am trying myself to install respect in my little boy, please and thank you's etc at the moment as he is only 2 1/2. If we do not have respect for others then we have nothing :thumbs:
 
I'll never agree with corporal punishment. The kids most likely to do this kind of **** are the ones who are most likely to have been beaten by their parents as punishment when they do bad things.
All violence as punishment shows a kid is that violence is one way to achieve your goal, and a damn effective one
 
Dan Leach said:
I'll never agree with corporal punishment. The kids most likely to do this kind of **** are the ones who are most likely to have been beaten by their parents as punishment when they do bad things.
All violence as punishment shows a kid is that violence is one way to achieve your goal, and a damn effective one
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I disagree.
I have been smacked by my parents in the past.
I have even been clipped around the ear by a local bobby (Remember them?).
I have been smacked in school for misbehaving.
I have never stolen of anyone.
I have never beaten anyone up or even wanted to.
I have always tried to respect people even when they do not deserve it.
 
Staggerlee said:
I disagree.
I have been smacked by my parents in the past.
I have even been clipped around the ear by a local bobby (Remember them?).
I have been smacked in school for misbehaving.
I have never stolen of anyone.
I have never beaten anyone up or even wanted to.
I have always tried to respect people even when they do not deserve it.
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I never got hit, and am also all those things.
Looks like corporal punishment or not matters little to our particular cases.

But when i was at school, the kids most likely to get into fights and the most likely to get in trouble with the law, were those from the roughest backgrounds. I good mate of mine at school used to full corporal punishment from his dad if he ever got caught doing anything wrong, he was one of worst behaved people in my year...
 
In this case the children probably did know what they were doing. But younger children often don't. Because in computer games people come back to life they think that will happen with dead people. I read a psychological study of one young offended (younger than those mentioned here) that thought the victim they had just shot, would come back to life as that is what happens in computer games. Also the child in this case had no concept of dead/dying.
 
If we can't hold the kids responsible, then let's hold the parents responsible. Let the parents of these kids pay the medical bill. Let the parents of these kids be held and tried for assault. Hold enough parents responsible, and withinn a very short period of time, they will start to hold their children responsible.

Or how about we just give parents the right to spank their kids again.
 
they just need to fall down and hurt themselves in a dark alley one night.some time later. purely accidentaly, you understand.:bat:
as far as i,m concerned, if they are old enough to commit the crime, theyre old enough to take whats coming to em. little barstewards.
 
grumpybadger said:
No-one is officially named until they appear in court and charged. I think it is an element of protection, in case people get judged to be guilty before evidence is given in court. I personally think we have one of the best justice systems in the world and the protection of the accused whilst a case is being built is a key element of this.

What happened to your son is tragic, but why do you need to know their names? Before getting angry with the judicial system, it should be given a chance to do its job - IMO. I would think that if they were 15 to 17, the chances are that they will get something more serious than a slap on the wrist. They are over the age of criminal responsibility and so will be deemed to know what they have done is wrong.

I understand why you are angry, but we have a legal system that must be allowed to do its job before jumping to conclusions.
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Yes the British justice system, in the News today the penalty for GBH against a 97 year old pensioner (war veteran) who lost his sight in one eye as a result of the assault is a paltry 3 year supervision order. I wonder what conclusion his family have jumped to now.
 
Braden i hope your son is on the mend.

Many of these problems in society are caused by a lack of social responsabilty and respect as mentioned before and this steams from a lack of disaplin at an early age, if you give in to your 2yr olds tantrums you will never gain control again and they will run your self and never take responsability for themselves.

I work in a children's accident and emergency department and we frequently see (almost daily) children that have been assaulted by other children, but we also see a lot of drunk teeageers and teenagers that have been injured in the commision of a crime. Very few of these cases ever even see the inside of a court room let alone result in punshishment for the offenders.

As a society we need to teach our children reality without making them affaid and we need to teach them sharing and respect and empathy and shame. Children are not ashamed by their ASBOs or criminal recolds and they know there is very little the authorities can do to them.

Just this week i was verbal assaulted by a teenager, i didnt even get an appoligy from his parents who were present at the time. Is the NHS intrested in refusing him future treatment no i just have to suck it up. If i did that in a resturant i would be asked to leave and probely not very poitly!

I feel that minors that frequently offend should be forced to work for the govenment in what ever way suits there skills ie army, nhs, sanitation community service is under rated and often not used apporiatly.

ok thats my rant over with:)
 
Naming and shaming? ...hmmm....not sure... I think it depends on the child and the community in which they live, and how can a judge honestly judge that? As several have already pointed out, many youngsters wear such noteriety is a badge of honour.
Braeden, I hope your son makes a full recovery and I hope his attackers are punished appropriately, as I am also sure that their is a small part of all of us that would quite like to be the one weilding the stick to beat them with, even if we are all far too sensible to actually do it. [sadly, as gb pointed out, there is a small element in society that cannot ignore that little part, and take it too far]

However, what IS an appropriate punishment when they have no self-respect? Because thats the issue here, its not respect for others that lacking, with self respect, that comes much more naturally. Yes, you can blame parents, and I have lived in communitites where parental responsibility is, well, an after thought really.... usually just after the 7yr old kid has died because he was playing chicken on a main road at midnight whilst his parents were in the pub, or the 16 yr was killed driving the car he nicked at 2am.... I now live in a very different community where parents have struggled to to their very best to bring their kids up with respect and social responsibility and still not always succeeded and are at their wits end as to what to do next to try and get their teenager to be a normal responsible human being. As I siad, name and shame will work for some and not others.... not sure you can use it as a deterent in some places.

Community service and working with victims is a great idea in theory, but needs massive supervision and much more input if it is to work effectively.

I don't know that answers, most of us dont, but most of us have witnessed the decline since corporal punishment was banned, video games became more violent [but still had reset buttons], TV became 'access ALL areas' from teenage ninja turtles to Murders in Eastenders, child line and childrens 'rights' took priority over any one elses rights...the list goes on... its society wide.


Hmm... ok, I will shut up now :embarrassed: I was just saying that no one punishment will work, its needs a society wide approach, and fresh ideas.
 
I think TBH there are lots of things that need to be done, and they all go hand in hand.

We also need to see a change in punishment. A punishment needs to BE a punishment.
Nowadays if a youngster is in trouble with the law, regardless of the interim punishment (Community orders etc), does it ever affect their later life? Probably not.

Punishments need to be an effective deterrent IMO.
Hard for a teenager to be proud of his ASBO if it means his job prospects will later be SERIOUSLY affected, as will any benefit claim, or housing application.
 
Marcel said:
Punishments need to be an effective deterrent IMO.
Hard for a teenager to be proud of his ASBO if it means his job prospects will later be SERIOUSLY affected, as will any benefit claim, or housing application.
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I totally agree in theory, but they don't think, or rather 'see' that far ahead. Even the best of teenagers struggle with the concept of 'future consequences' and for most parents, its a success when their teenager can have enough foresight to study hard for a future career. We are talking about kids now that have, in many cases, dropped out of the 'system' already, they feel above and beyond such mundane matters as 'if I kick this lad now, I won't be able to get my housing benefit paid in 3 years time'. Like you say Marcel, there are many things that need to be done, and they go hand in hand, but I would hate to be the one that has to decide how its done. :bonk:
 
if i,d been upto no good as a youngster, i.d have been far more frightened of my dad finding out , than the cops.
if parents have no respect for anyone, theres little chance their kids will. scare the c**p out of them on their first offence with some serious consequences. maybe a second offence would be less likely.?
 
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