Undecided on location lighting

lala

lala

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Simon
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So, I have narrowed my selection down to the Lencarta Safari or the Strobeam 500w but that is far as I've got :|
I want to use it for portraits ( indoors and outdoors ), equine portraits and try my hand at the odd automotive inspired shoot. Ability to overpower ambient light is prime, as are reliability and quality.
Without wishing to stir up a hornets nest, the Lencarta has more real world reviews available via Google, whereas the Strobeam is a bit sparse.
Unusually for me I'm being quite careful before I buy. Any advice greatly appreciated, thanks.
 
I've narrowed these down by budget/ features/performance . I also want full power available to both heads, maybe not necessary as previously remarked but would like the option to be available. Also looking at it as a backup feature, should one pack go down, I could still carry on shooting.
I think my hesitation is due to a lack of real world feedback.
Hopefully all will become clearer in the near future.
 
If those Strobeams are IGBT controlled versions, they will be down on power Ws for Ws against conventional type studio heads.

On power per £, nothing beats Lencarta Li-on.
 
Another thought for you...

I presume you require location lights often enough to warrant purchase over rental? I only ask as I have a number of Bowens lights for studio work (that can also run from travelpacs) but I require faster recycle and shorter flash duration for the location work I do to stop motion and relatively rapid fire. Something that the Profoto 7B2 or Pro-B3 gives me... but at many ££££ and my requirement of about 1 or 2 location shoots a month make rental for £100 a better solution for me.

I haven't used either of the two you are considering so don't have user knowledge of their real world performance for the sort of location work you might be doing and so their suitability. I'm sure Garry will be able to 'shed light' there ;)
 
V8burble said:
Another thought for you...

I presume you require location lights often enough to warrant purchase over rental? I only ask as I have a number of Bowens lights for studio work (that can also run from travelpacs) but I require faster recycle and shorter flash duration for the location work I do to stop motion and relatively rapid fire. Something that the Profoto 7B2 or Pro-B3 gives me... but at many ££££ and my requirement of about 1 or 2 location shoots a month make rental for £100 a better solution for me.

I haven't used either of the two you are considering so don't have user knowledge of their real world performance for the sort of location work you might be doing and so their suitability. I'm sure Garry will be able to 'shed light' there ;)
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In performance terms, the only real weakness of the Lencarta Li-on is longish flash durations. They're similar to regular studio heads but sometimes the very nature of location shooting invloves a bit of action. One possible solution to that is Lencarta's new Mach 1N triggers that use the tail-hypersync technique which works at any shutter speed right up to the camera's max 1/8000sec, and it actually works best with longer duration flahses (long thread on that here http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=436758 ).

Otherwise, it's Elinchrom Quadra and Ranger with the faster A-head option, or Profoto. The few IGBT type heads around at the moment are capable of very short flash durations, but only at low power settings.
 
I'd always suggest trying equipment such as this before you buy it.

Practical portability and other features such as radio triggering and remote control are far better answered with a good read of the instruction manual and some hands-on use.

I can't speak for others ...
 
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paul williams said:
Don't know anything about this unit except what's in here

Paul
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Spec seems unlikely. Claimed 480Ws should deliver a guide number way over 100, however you measure it, and the flash durations cannot be right :thinking:
 
HoppyUK said:
Spec seems unlikely. Claimed 480Ws should deliver a guide number way over 100, however you measure it, and the flash durations cannot be right :thinking:
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I know somebody who uses one.

I'm not sure why you'd assume the durations are wrong.
 
JonathanRyan said:
I know somebody who uses one.

I'm not sure why you'd assume the durations are wrong.
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The link to AP says 1/2000sec to 1/11000sec, presumably quoting the manufacturer, but unspecified.

On the Lighting Rumours link, they were measured at 1/300sec to 1/17000sec t0.5, and 1/230sec to 1/7900 t0.1.

My guess is that, in terms of equivalent shutter speeds, the truth lies somewhere between these last two, but it's the usual minefield.
 
HoppyUK said:
The link to AP says 1/2000sec to 1/11000sec, presumably quoting the manufacturer, but unspecified.

On the Lighting Rumours link, they were measured at 1/300sec to 1/17000sec t0.5, and 1/230sec to 1/7900 t0.1.
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Ah I see - couldn't get the Lighting Rumours link to load before I got bored.
 
JonathanRyan said:
Ah I see - couldn't get the Lighting Rumours link to load before I got bored.
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The fact that the numbers are all over the place is interesting in itself. We've debated t0.5 and t0.1 times before, and that's bad enough but we almost know where we are with that and conventional studio flash. Kind of. But then throw in IGBT-type heads and that drops another spanner in the works.

The industry needs to sort something out, that's both accurate and meaningful across all flash types. And a standard measure for light output too while we're at it.
 
HoppyUK said:
Spec seems unlikely. Claimed 480Ws should deliver a guide number way over 100, however you measure it, and the flash durations cannot be right :thinking:
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Just thought I'd add these to the discussion - personally I wouldn't buy them based purely on that 'Nice' name :D

Paul
 
Thanks for all the replies. I'm almost decided on the Safari setup, probably go with 2 heads and 2 packs and get the best of all worlds with the ability to add extra heads if need be. But I still have a hankering for the Elinchroms.....maybe a bit of brand loyalty?
 
In my opinion the Quadra is a better product, with more features and better build quality, but it comes at a price. Bang for buck, the Safari is a very good deal for a basic battery flash unit.

All depends on how much cash you want to throw at it :)
 
HoppyUK said:
The industry needs to sort something out, that's both accurate and meaningful across all flash types. And a standard measure for light output too while we're at it.
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I don't disagree.

I suspect some of the differences will be down to measurement accuracy. Hard to measure durations on the quick flashes without specialist equipment. Estimating can make these wildly out.
 
JonathanRyan said:
I don't disagree.

I suspect some of the differences will be down to measurement accuracy. Hard to measure durations on the quick flashes without specialist equipment. Estimating can make these wildly out.
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As above.
The only truly accurate method of measuring flash durations is with an oscilloscope - but not just any oscilloscope, it needs to be a fairly high tech, modern one. It needs technical expertise and even then, the readings need to be interpreted.

In my experience, a lot of these smaller manufacturers don't even have one. Therefore it suits them to 'measure' the durations at full power simply by using the crude 'gate method' of using a flash meter to establish the highest shutter speed on a flash meter that doesn't result in a lower energy reading, and then extrapolate the readings at lower power settings.

One of the reasons why it may suit some manufacturers to do could be that it is very unlikely that anyone will be able to prove their figures to be false - and I use the word 'false' with care, as I believe that in some cases the figures are false rather than just mistaken. And the same goes for other figures, such as colour temperature consistency. In the case of one particular 'high tech' flash head, the claims made for colour temperature were incredibly optimistic. I stood in their factory, measured the flash and showed them the figures. They immediately said that my readings were wrong so I asked them to check with their own colour temperature meter alongside mine to try to find out where and why the differences occurred - but they couldn't because they didn't have one...
 
Agree with Garry. From my own tests, I can see that sometimes manufacturers' claims are good, some are exagerated, some are down to misleading measurement methods, and with some the only explanation is that they've just been made up.

I used to think that, on flash durations, there was a possible way forward by using an oscilloscope and relating the height of the peak with a threshold level and coming up with a decent formula that matched the kind of action-stopping potential given with real shutter speeds.

Not so sure about that now, especially after testing the impressive new Elinchrom D-Lite One that performed better than I expected given its quoted t0.5 times (checked as correct with Elinchrom). It over-estimates action-stopping at full power, but significantly under estimates it at min, and further, with the inevitably subjective element when comparing to actual shutter speeds, at max and min power it didn't look very different at all throughout the range. I'm assuming it's the smaller capacitors behaving differently to larger ones turned down, even though the t0.5 times might be the same.

Then we have IGBT controlled flash durations, with all hot-shoe guns of course and now a few studio type heads coming through. The shape of their oscilloscope traces are totally different, and can be so short that my spinning disc test procedure (newly enhanced :D) is hard to read at less than say 1/10,000sec, and though I can make a stab at maybe up to 1/20,000sec, it's a bit of a guess. I also strongly suspect that it takes a very special oscilloscope to read those kind of very short times accurately too ;)

I'm not too bothered about that though really, not at the extremes, but there's a real need to get an accurate impression of flash durations in line with shutter speeds from say 1/250sec to 1/8000sec.
 
treeman said:
In my opinion the Quadra is a better product, with more features and better build quality, but it comes at a price. Bang for buck, the Safari is a very good deal for a basic battery flash unit.

All depends on how much cash you want to throw at it :)
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This is my dilemma !! I already have a couple of sets of d-lites, which I'm very happy with and as a brand, I like Elinchrom. The problem with the Quadras is that they aren't as powerful as they rated to be and one of my main criteria is the ability to overcome ambient light. The Rangers are much better suited to my needs but definitely not my ability :) and they become cost prohibitive when you spec separate heads and packs.
The Lencartas seem to tick all the boxes on spec, ability and price, just need to place my order :)
 
lala said:
This is my dilemma !! I already have a couple of sets of d-lites, which I'm very happy with and as a brand, I like Elinchrom. The problem with the Quadras is that they aren't as powerful as they rated to be and one of my main criteria is the ability to overcome ambient light. The Rangers are much better suited to my needs but definitely not my ability :) and they become cost prohibitive when you spec separate heads and packs.
The Lencartas seem to tick all the boxes on spec, ability and price, just need to place my order :)
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I don't really see how that is a dilemma, you're either willing to stump up the readies or not! There is always something better you can aspire too, but you just need to do the maths, tot up the positives against the negatives and usually you'll end up with the right product - but if you can't or afford a product this is the first reason it should be removed from the list IMO otherwise, you should have the Profoto B4-Pro on your list...:D

Paul
 
Well just been through a similar decision process. I use Bowens and have a good selection of softboxes and modifiers so need S bayonet fitting. I need to be able to overpower daylight for equine portraits and moto-x as well as it being a portable studio system indoors.
I need 2 lights, remote control is not required, happy to do the same as I do with my studio lights i.e. walk 10 feet when required. 2:1 ratio is no issue, sounds like a standard lighting ratio to me. I like the idea of tail sync as that should help with high speed fill and I already have pocket wizard TT5s which allow this.
I have talked to my friends doing similar.
So the Lencarta is arriving on Monday.
 
lala said:
This is my dilemma !! I already have a couple of sets of d-lites, which I'm very happy with and as a brand, I like Elinchrom. The problem with the Quadras is that they aren't as powerful as they rated to be and one of my main criteria is the ability to overcome ambient light. The Rangers are much better suited to my needs but definitely not my ability :) and they become cost prohibitive when you spec separate heads and packs.
The Lencartas seem to tick all the boxes on spec, ability and price, just need to place my order :)
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That's not quite the full story. The Quadra S-heads put out as much light as any other typical 400Ws unit. That's the one that Elinchrom quotes in their figures, but the faster duration A-heads are less efficient and, according to my figures, a bit over half a stop down on that.
 
There is also another side to this.

The accessory that you put on the front of the light.

You mention Elinchrom so please excuse me for doing the same.

There are thousands of photographers achieving amazing results with relatively low power. They do so by making full use of the accessory system, matching the light distribution to the job they want to do.

Portabilty, recycling times, number of flashes from a battery are quoted as crucial factors, and yet little seems to be made here of the importance of using the best accessory ?

It is interesting that we now find many photographers preferring the 400 w/s Quadra to the 1100 w/s Ranger RX --- despite the weather resistance of the Ranger RX, because even when competing with the Sun, they can achieve what they want with 400 w/s.

With radio triggering and remote control, more lights can be used, positioning becomes more flexible, and better use can be made of the available power.

Why not buy what will best do the job most of the time, and rent the extra you need as and when you need it ? ..

It's what the profesionals do ...:)
 
HoppyUK said:
The Quadra S-heads put out as much light as any other typical 400Ws unit.
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Would the S-heads be powerful enough to overpower ambient light?
I know I would need to buy the adapters but then I wouldn't need to buy any modifiers, if I stuck with the Elinchrom system :thinking:
 
I'm afraid its not that simple, remember a speedlite will over power the sun if you're taking head shots with the light right next to the subject. It also matters on what you consider as over powering the sun, 1/2 stop, 2 stops, or completely?

Any manufacturer claiming their product will over power the sun is making an incredibly subjective statement, are we talking about the sun at 9am in December or midday in the middle of June, not to mention over power by how much!

It also depends on what modifiers you want to use, (hence my earlier question) and what you want to light, big things like cars take a lot of light.

400Ws is only 1/2 stop down on 600Ws and given the the Elly modifiers are some of the most efficient I doubt you'd notice the difference, plus you'd be able to use any size of modifier as the light is not having to take the weight, unlike other battery units.

Maybe rent one and try before you buy :)
 
lala said:
Would the S-heads be powerful enough to overpower ambient light?I know I would need to buy the adapters but then I wouldn't need to buy any modifiers, if I stuck with the Elinchrom system :thinking:
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Yes, they would. But, there are a load of buts.

I think 400Ws is a good yardstick for having a go at it, using decent modifiers at a workable distance, but it's so variable.

Let's start with Sunny 16, and 1/250sec at f/16, ISO250 on a bright clear day. But right now, it's dull and overcast here and I'm getting f/4d3 at the same settings - 3.6 stops down. Massive difference.

Round numbers, but 400Ws in a 100cm softbox or similar will give you roughly f/32 at 1.0m (same ISO). Tons of power indoors, but outdoors distances tend to be longer and at 2m that drops to about f/16, so now you're matching bright sun, but not beating it. Either move the light closer, or fit a more efficient modifier like a high-intensity tulip-type. I was using one of those recently and it was about 2.5-3 stops up on the softbox, but much harder light of course and a narrower pool. You see them being used quite a lot outdoors, and they don't blow over nearly so easily.

No easy answers, but Flashtec's suggestion is worth considering. Buy what you need to do most jobs most of the time, then hire stuff (like a couple of 1100Ws Eli Rangers) when you need it.

Edit: crossed post with Treeman. Rent something and try before you buy :thumbs:
 
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Flashtec said:
Why not buy what will best do the job most of the time, and rent the extra you need as and when you need it ? ..

It's what the profesionals do ...:)
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Because, like pretty much everybody who doesn't live in London, there is no place to rent kit within 2 hours drive of here.

I could have them couriered but that means 3 days' rental for every day's use.
 
JonathanRyan said:
Because, like pretty much everybody who doesn't live in London, there is no place to rent kit within 2 hours drive of here.

I could have them couriered but that means 3 days' rental for every day's use.
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you will live in the back end of beyond and round the corner
 
boyfalldown said:
you will live in the back end of beyond and round the corner
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You live less than 10 miles from the Flash Centre. How long would it take you to drive there, pick up some lights and drive home? 3 hours?

Renting works well for London studios and in America.

Last time I asked about renting lights it was something like £150 rental for the day. Plus delivery at £300 + vat each way....
 
JonathanRyan said:
Last time I asked about renting lights it was something like £150 rental for the day. Plus delivery at £300 + vat each way....
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I used to hire a ring flash from The Flash Centre quite regularly, and they just used to put it on their usual despatch company, it would arrive next day, and I'm sure I only paid for the days I had it for.

Though of course arguably, if it was a lot more kit it might not be so easy :shrug:
 
The reason that Lencarta (and myself) are always banging on about power is that it's important, or at least it's important to most of the people most of the time.

If the lights are fairly close to the subject, 400Ws is always enough to produce a fairly high level of fill, even in bright sunlight. For lots of photographers, and especially beginners, that's all that's wanted because all they want to do is to produce flat lighting. And in dull weather conditions, 400Ws can be enough to overpower the ambient, at least to some extent.

But if you want to control the light rather than just supplement it, and if you need to be able to do that in literally any weather conditions, just an extra half stop or so (or 1.1 stops if you are comparing the Safari Li-on with the Quadra 'A' heads) can make an enormous difference. Presumably that's why some people buy a 1100Ws Ranger instead of a Safari Li-on, because it produces 0.6 stop more power, and why other people buy much more powerful flashes of other makes - it's all horses for courses and there is no entirely right or entirely wrong answer.

Chris, writing on behalf of The Flash Centre, is absolutely right when he says that the choice of modifier, and the way in which it is used, is very important - but that applies regardless of the make or model of the flash it's fitted to.

Short answer:
Buy the Strobeam if you want extremely fast recycling and extremely fast flash durations at low power settings, if the low power doesn't matter to you. Having thoroughly tested every make on the market, I'm confident that although it's a similar product to the Quantum and has the same limitations, it's performance is much better

Buy the Quadra if light weight is the most important factor and if limited power and the battery life doesn't matter to you.

Buy the Safari Li-on if you want higher power and the best battery life by far. It isn't the most sophisticated unit on the market, but it's selling like hot cakes for a reason...

Buy into the Profoto range if you can afford the best of all worlds. Profoto are very expensive, but they are expensive for a reason.
 
Garry, thanks for the short answer :thumbs:

Treeman, I really need a system that will definitely cope with individual and family portraits. I want to be able to take more dynamic and interesting portraits and feel that the ability to " go outside " will enable me to achieve this.
I want to have a go at your area of expertise....I currently cover the wife's riding club and have had a lot of interest from them. I also shoot for a stud and an importer, mainly website and brochure stuff but they have both expressed an interest.
In my other job I have been asked to shoot cars, never done this before and the 2 jobs aren't related but they produce a property magazine with the occasional automotive feature, which they currently shoot in house and aren't overly happy with the results but don't have the budget for a professional!! I look at it as a stepping stone and think it would be worth a go.

So in short.....I want to have a hybrid Elinchrom/Lencarta system...asap:lol:
 
lala said:
So in short.....I want to have a hybrid Elinchrom/Lencarta system...asap:lol:
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...this is where Profoto comes in ;-) However if someone could make the Elinchrom A heads (fast durations at full power and fairly tough build quality) with Safari Li-on power (true 600ws) attached to the Strobeam battery (allows two individual heads rather than 2:1 ratio and a lot of repeated firing) whilst keeping the weight around the 2kg mark and including the skyport or strobeam wireless triggering system then it would be an ideal product for near enough everyone
 
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But not with the same specification or performance
 
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