Trumpet player - lighting excercise

=ReBeL=

=ReBeL=

Suspended / Banned
Messages
1,095
Name
Adrian
Edit My Images
No
Here is one for the purists / theorists.

I have a relative who is (or should I say was, as he is pretty much retired now) a professional trumpet player. I don't think he has ever had a good portrait taken with his trumpet. I would like to change that. I will be visiting for few days and that will be a good opportunity to do it then.

There are a couple of problems (there always are).

First, is the trumpet itself. It is gold colour and very reflective. Now, this would not be a problem in a studio, or at least an easily controllable environment, but there is no studio. That leads me to the other problem.

Gear. Or should I say - lack of it. The relative leaves abroad and we will be visiting traveling light. It will be easier to list the stuff that I will have with me, rather than things I won't, so here we go:

- a camera
- a couple of lenses
- a speedlite

(I will try to dig out my 5-in-1 reflector, but am not sure where it is and what condition it is in) I will take triggers probably as well, but will have no light stands and no modifiers.

I have an idea in mind for a photo and with my studio gear, it would not be difficult to achieve. However, with only a speedlite and natural light and no light modifiers, it is a bit of a challenge.

I would like to photograph him playing his trumpet, only head, shoulders, arms and trumpet in the frame. Black background, with only half of the face visible, the rest in deep shadow / black. Black and white.

There should be a good window light available. Last time I was there, there was a good light coming from a large window / door diffused by shades. However, it was some time ago and I am not sure what changed in the house.

I will of course grab a few snaps of him playing close to the window, with maybe a speedlite as a fill. Also thinking about a silhouette type of shots. But the main one, that I would like to get is the one with black background.

I will have no black background with me, so it will have to be created by distance from light.

How would you achieve the above with the tools provided?
 
=ReBeL= said:
Here is one for the purists / theorists.

I have a relative who is (or should I say was, as he is pretty much retired now) a professional trumpet player. I don't think he has ever had a good portrait taken with his trumpet. I would like to change that. I will be visiting for few days and that will be a good opportunity to do it then.

There are a couple of problems (there always are).

First, is the trumpet itself. It is gold colour and very reflective. Now, this would not be a problem in a studio, or at least an easily controllable environment, but there is no studio. That leads me to the other problem.

Gear. Or should I say - lack of it. The relative leaves abroad and we will be visiting traveling light. It will be easier to list the stuff that I will have with me, rather than things I won't, so here we go:

- a camera
- a couple of lenses
- a speedlite

(I will try to dig out my 5-in-1 reflector, but am not sure where it is and what condition it is in) I will take triggers probably as well, but will have no light stands and no modifiers.

I have an idea in mind for a photo and with my studio gear, it would not be difficult to achieve. However, with only a speedlite and natural light and no light modifiers, it is a bit of a challenge.

I would like to photograph him playing his trumpet, only head, shoulders, arms and trumpet in the frame. Black background, with only half of the face visible, the rest in deep shadow / black. Black and white.

There should be a good window light available. Last time I was there, there was a good light coming from a large window / door diffused by shades. However, it was some time ago and I am not sure what changed in the house.

I will of course grab a few snaps of him playing close to the window, with maybe a speedlite as a fill. Also thinking about a silhouette type of shots. But the main one, that I would like to get is the one with black background.

I will have no black background with me, so it will have to be created by distance from light.

How would you achieve the above with the tools provided?
Click to expand...
Using blinds and the windowlight. Create a stripbox at the window, and control the lighting by turning the subject in relation to the light.
It may take some tweaking in pp though.
 
Phil V said:
Using blinds and the windowlight. Create a stripbox at the window, and control the lighting by turning the subject in relation to the light.
It may take some tweaking in pp though.
Click to expand...
Thanks Phil. So what you are saying is to cover most of the window to create a narrow strip of light and place him in it? That might work indeed. The only thing is that, I presume I will have to stand him pretty close to the window, I then will have a very limited field of movement to find a good spot for myself.

The strip of light will be vertical only and I will have no control over the shape of it (only the size).

Last time I was there, the curtains they had were not black-out type and they were letting through light anyway, but - if I understand it correctly - the light difference between shaded part and un-shaded might be enough to create the half-player-visible effect and could give me black (or rather dark-ish) background to play with in PP.
 
Last edited:
You'll be able to control the width of the opening, and the contrast difference by moving him closer or further from the light source, you can use reflectors and flags to help further control (it'll need an assistant but not necessarily a 5 in 1)
You can use clothing, tablecloths, pillowcases and whatever you have handy as a reflector or flag.

This was shot that way...
But obviously moving myself in relation to the bride changed the lighting completely (it really didn't feel this dark in the room - there are other images that look 'normal'
Doncaster-Bride-reportage.jpg
 
Pretty easy... start with a black exposure and then bang the speedlight in from the side. Flag it so it doesn't hit the BG, and use a large enough area that it doesn't bounce back in (or use something dark to absorb it). The closer it is, the less you will have to worry about spill/bounce.

It will be a hard transition to black, but that sounds like what you want.
 
Fantastic. That's already two ways to achieve the effect.

When it comes to window light, I understand that we are not talking about a direct sun light coming from the window, just the normal diffused window light?

When it comes to speedlite version, the only problem I see is the trumpet. It is highly reflective. The speedlite will create a blown out highlights in the trumpet, which I would prefer to avoid. It would be probably better to bounce speedlite off a large surface to create more even illumination, but then this creates problems with controlling the light - where it hits and how much. I will be pretty limited in stuff I can use.
 
It doesn't really matter what the light source is... if you are going for high contrast/single light the more reflective trumpet will be brighter. But you should get more of "outline catchlights" as opposed to a "blown out horn."

I tried to find an image like I'm envisioning... the closest I could find quickly was this one of hands,
hands-trumpet-115323.jpg


and this one of Roy Eldridge.
Roy_Eldridge.jpg



I did this self portrait using the method I described.
_SGK2815.jpg
 
Last edited:
sk66 said:
It doesn't really matter what the light source is... if you are going for high contrast/single light the more reflective trumpet will be brighter. But you should get more of "outline catchlights" as opposed to a "blown out horn."

I tried to find an image like I'm envisioning... the closest I could find quickly was this one of hands,
hands-trumpet-115323.jpg


and this one of Roy Eldridge.
Roy_Eldridge.jpg



I did this self portrait using the method I described.
View attachment 64558
Click to expand...

Oh I like the idea of just hands and trumpet as well. I will add that to the shot list.

OK, I understand the concept. I have done similar portraits before using a strobe with standard reflector fitted (my avatar for example). It will be a little more difficult to position the speedlite just right, with no modelling lamp, but hopefully I will have enough time to play around with it.

I like both approaches and if I get enough time, and the person will be willing, I will try both. Both seem quite simple and the result should be roughly what I am after.

Thanks very much to both, Steven and Phil. Much appreciated (y)
 
Personally I'd take a very different approach (nothing unusual there) and take the shots outdoors in dull, shadowless lighting (for the trumpet). A black background would be very difficult to achieve but a white one, shooting upwards and using the sky, would be easy and effective. Maybe a black absorber (5 in 1 reflector or a piece of black card) to create black reflections in the trumpet to add drama too.
 
Garry Edwards said:
Personally I'd take a very different approach (nothing unusual there) and take the shots outdoors in dull, shadowless lighting (for the trumpet). A black background would be very difficult to achieve but a white one, shooting upwards and using the sky, would be easy and effective. Maybe a black absorber (5 in 1 reflector or a piece of black card) to create black reflections in the trumpet to add drama too.
Click to expand...
Hmm I'm not sure I follow. What would be the benefit of shooting outdoors? Are you talking about photographing just the trumpet, or the trumpet and player?
 
Last edited:
=ReBeL= said:
Hmm I'm not sure I follow. What would be the benefit of shooting outdoors? Are you talking about photographing just the trumpet, or the trumpet and player?
Click to expand...
From the description I envision an entirely different kind of image... I'm thinking high key (low contrast) with the exposure pulled down and converted to B&W (that's just me). If I could explain it, it would be like a charcoal drawing with a lot of gradation/mid-tones and nothing really hot.

Could be very cool, but it's about 180* the other direction...
 
Last edited:
sk66 said:
From the description I envision an entirely different kind of image... I'm thinking high key (low contrast) with the exposure pulled down and converted to B&W (that's just me). If I could explain it, it would be like a charcoal drawing with a lot of gradation/mid-tones and nothing really hot.

Could be very cool, but it's about 180* the other direction...
Click to expand...
From what I can gather, Garry is talking about a completely different shot than I had in mind. That's OK, as I am open to all suggestions. This is meant to be a present for the person, but also challenge / practice for myslef. I work mostly with strobes.

However, I am still stuggling to "see" what he has in mind.
 
My suggestion may not work - I never actually know exactly how I'm going to photograph/light anything until I start doing it. My experience and knowledge tells me what won't work, but doesn't tell me what will work.
My take on this is that the suggestions involving a window light won't work too well, because the light can't be placed in the exact position needed for the trumpet, which means placing the subject to suit the light (the other way round) and anyway the window isn't likely to be big enough for such a shiny subject.
So, my thought is to control the specular reflections by shooting outdoors on a dull day, so that the entire sky is a soft, diffused and very large light source, and then to add the black absorber as described, to add some black to the trumpet and to darken one side of the face which, if it works well, will be better than adding these features in PP, although that option will of course remain.
 
Garry Edwards said:
My suggestion may not work - I never actually know exactly how I'm going to photograph/light anything until I start doing it. My experience and knowledge tells me what won't work, but doesn't tell me what will work.
My take on this is that the suggestions involving a window light won't work too well, because the light can't be placed in the exact position needed for the trumpet, which means placing the subject to suit the light (the other way round) and anyway the window isn't likely to be big enough for such a shiny subject.
So, my thought is to control the specular reflections by shooting outdoors on a dull day, so that the entire sky is a soft, diffused and very large light source, and then to add the black absorber as described, to add some black to the trumpet and to darken one side of the face which, if it works well, will be better than adding these features in PP, although that option will of course remain.
Click to expand...
Thanks Garry.

What do you think about the speedlight version. I quite lihe the idea and I think it might work.

Speedlight placed on a table for example, player sitted some distance away. Me positioned around 45 degrees from the player, on the other side of the player ( so that light is essentially a sidelight, slightly to the back). I will have to flag the light to prevent spill into the camera but I think it might work. Most of the trumpet will get the reflections from the shaded aide (so should be dark or almost black), only the outline will be highlighted. Face should be partially lighted. Just as I wanted.
 
Well, you can try it, but it can only work if the speedlight can be flagged successfully and if it isn't competing with much ambient light.
Personally, with this type of shot I try everything that can work.
 
Garry Edwards said:
Well, you can try it, but it can only work if the speedlight can be flagged successfully and if it isn't competing with much ambient light.
Personally, with this type of shot I try everything that can work.
Click to expand...
Well, it will definitely be a nice change from the usual things I photograph. And a bit of a challenge too :) All I can do is to give it my best shot.

I am still unsure whether he will be willing to pose, but I will soon find out. I'm flying tomorrow.
 
It would be ideal if I could make some sort of snoot for the speedlight, just big enough to light the guy and the trumpet and nothing else.
 
You might be surprised how effective zooming the speedlight all the way to its longest can be.

It sounds odd, but sometimes I zoom a speedlight and then bounce it, it creates a narrow pool of light with slightly softer edges than a bare speedlight.
 
Phil V said:
You might be surprised how effective zooming the speedlight all the way to its longest can be.

It sounds odd, but sometimes I zoom a speedlight and then bounce it, it creates a narrow pool of light with slightly softer edges than a bare speedlight.
Click to expand...
Good tip. Thanks :)
 
This selfie sounds a bit like what you're after..


Self by Simon Carter, on Flickr

It was taken with a small gridded softbox. I managed similar with a speedlite flagged with an elastic band & small piece of black craft foam but the light on the face wasn't quite so satisfactory. I used a 5-in1 reflector as a background as it was the easiest way to get pure black in my small front room. My position had to be really precise and it still took some work in PS but there was no complicated masking.

The light was pretty close to me but slightly behind my position. I *think* that if I'd been holding a trumpet it would have had a rim light a bit like the shot of Roy Eldridge that @sk66 posted but positioning would have been awkward and there may well have been totally blown highlights.

A Roguewave Flashbender or cheap clone is a very useful thing for travelling light - it can be an instant flag, reflector, snoot or mini strip box.

All that said I'd go with @Phil V 's approach. If need be enhance it by putting a speedlite outside the window.
 
di.jpg

Thanks Simon :)

It might be a bit easier to imagine what I have in mind at this point by using a diagram.


If you imagine the mic is the trumpet :D and the player is roughly 45 degrees to the camera. The speedlight on the other side and behind. Flagged.

If I'm not mistaken, this should give me roughly what I'm after:

- player - only the far side of the face is lit up. This should give me mostly an outline of the face, hands and shoulders.
- trumpet - I don't have to worry about specular highlight, because the light source is on the other side (not visible from where the camera is), so I should only get an outline of the trumpet. It will be reflecting the dark side of the room, so the trumpet should be mostly black. Probably the outline will be blown, but as I plan to convert it to black and white anyway and add a b&w gradient map, I'm not too worried about.


When it comes to Phil's window approach, the light source will be much less powerful. I will have to adjust the shutter speed and probably push the ISO up. Also *I think* the light spill will be harder to control. I know I can control the shape of the light source, but the diffused window light will be traveling in many different directions and bounce around. *Unless* I make the gap in curtains really narrow, but then - will I have enough light to play with? I would like to avoid high ISO. I only have 5dmk2 and I don't really like to go above ISO 800 on it.
 
Last edited:
=ReBeL= said:
View attachment 64651

Thanks Simon :)

It might be a bit easier to imagine what I have in mind at this point by using a diagram.


If you imagine the mic is the trumpet :D and the player is roughly 45 degrees to the camera. The speedlight on the other side and behind. Flagged.

If I'm not mistaken, this should give me roughly what I'm after:

- player - only the far side of the face is lit up. This should give me mostly an outline of the face, hands and shoulders.
- trumpet - I don't have to worry about specular highlight, because the light source is on the other side (not visible from where the camera is), so I should only get an outline of the trumpet. It will be reflecting the dark side of the room, so the trumpet should be mostly black. Probably the outline will be blown, but as I plan to convert it to black and white anyway and add a b&w gradient map, I'm not too worried about.
Click to expand...

Might work, but I expect you'll need to flag off the speedlite at the rear too to stop it hitting the wall. And I'd want a little more than a pure outline on the face, so would either tweak the speedlite position or try to bounce a little bit of light into that side using a white card.

I wouldn't be surprised if this setup failed to give a full outline of the trumpet. The small source and highly reflective nature of the thing may create only a few small specular highlights rather than a smooth outline. A bounce card of some sort would help of course.
 
juggler said:
Might work, but I expect you'll need to flag off the speedlite at the rear too to stop it hitting the wall. And I'd want a little more than a pure outline on the face, so would either tweak the speedlite position or try to bounce a little bit of light into that side using a white card.

I wouldn't be surprised if this setup failed to give a full outline of the trumpet. The small source and highly reflective nature of the thing may create only a few small specular highlights rather than a smooth outline. A bounce card of some sort would help of course.
Click to expand...
I found my 5-in-1 and I am trying to fit it in the luggage.

Of course, this is all is just a theory, I'm sure the plan will have to be changed here or there, but I like to go prepared and at least have a basic plan in mind. I can always modify it if something does not work as it should.

I'm off soon :)
 
Still abroad but I have managed to get few shots when he was practicing this morning. The flash shots did not work for a couple of reasons. First is that when I zoom the flash it does not cover the whole area, second there was too much ambient light, so I plan to try again in the evening. Also I will need somebody to hold the 5in1 for me and there was nobody today. The curtains do not fully move, only a small bit, so the other plan did not work either.
I don't have a proper PP workstation with me, so I will have to wait until back to see what I got.
 
Last edited:
=ReBeL= said:
Still abroad but I have managed to get few shots when he was practicing this morning. The flash shots did not work for a couple of reasons. First is that when I zoom the flash it does not cover the whole area, second there was too much ambient light, so I plan to try again in the evening. Also I will need somebody to hold the 5in1 for me and there was nobody today. The curtains do not fully move, only a small bit, so the other plan did not work either.
Click to expand...

Use some other fabric / clothes / cardboard or the reflector with tape or clothes pegs to narrow the gap in the curtains?
Try bouncing the flash off the reflector and angle the reflector carefully to control what it hits?
If you can only shoot in bright daylight trying going outside and making a near-silhouette against the sky?
Find another room to shoot in? The best natural light for portraits in my house is in the downstairs loo :)
 
juggler said:
Use some other fabric / clothes / cardboard or the reflector with tape or clothes pegs to narrow the gap in the curtains?
Try bouncing the flash off the reflector and angle the reflector carefully to control what it hits?
If you can only shoot in bright daylight trying going outside and making a near-silhouette against the sky?
Find another room to shoot in? The best natural light for portraits in my house is in the downstairs loo :)
Click to expand...

Yes, the plan is to use the 5in1 as a background in one shot (black side), and to bounce the light off it in another (white side). As for attaching things to curtains, that's a no as I don't want to damage anything.

I have some near silhoutte shots already. The light is really nice in the room. As usually with shooting inside, I am somewhat limited by furniture and layout of the room, but from what I saw on the laptop, there should be something usuable there already :)
 
=ReBeL= said:
Still abroad but I have managed to get few shots when he was practicing this morning. The flash shots did not work for a couple of reasons. First is that when I zoom the flash it does not cover the whole area, second there was too much ambient light, so I plan to try again in the evening. Also I will need somebody to hold the 5in1 for me and there was nobody today. The curtains do not fully move, only a small bit, so the other plan did not work either.
I don't have a proper PP workstation with me, so I will have to wait until back to see what I got.
Click to expand...
Trying to kill ambient with speedlights can be a lost cause...
 
In the end I went for white background instead of black. Opinions are divided. What do you think?

5q9AqxS.jpg
 
Looks like the basic approach worked pretty well. I'm pretty sure I would have preferred it on black...
IMO, it's a bit "harsh." I would use a levels adjustment to bring the white point down a bit and just bump up the middle a touch.
 
sk66 said:
Looks like the basic approach worked pretty well. I'm pretty sure I would have preferred it on black...
IMO, it's a bit "harsh." I would use a levels adjustment to bring the white point down a bit and just bump up the middle a touch.
Click to expand...
The initial idea was to have it on black, as you know, but somehow this one does work better on white for me. The way it was lit - in a bit of uneven way - created some problems on black background. I could have probably remove or reduce most, but the form of a "trumpet player" seems to be working on white as well, maybe even better than the original black.

When it comes to how dark the picture is, I never actually intended it to be a fully well-lit portrait. It was always meant to be most shadows, but I'll play with the mid tones a bit.

Thanks Steven :)
 
I really don't see much of a difference here. What I'm looking for is just a bit of his rt eye coming through. I'm sure monitor brightness/calibration differences are impacting what we each see.
 
sk66 said:
I really don't see much of a difference here. What I'm looking for is just a bit of his rt eye coming through. I'm sure monitor brightness/calibration differences are impacting what we each see.
Click to expand...
When I convert it and downsize to post on the web, it crushes blacks a bit. The face is really not as dark on the big monitor. I plan to send him a printed version, and my printer is pretty close to my wide gamut monitor, so I'll leave it like that for now until I print it to have a look.

I can't say I am very proud of how it came out, but keeping in mind the lack of equipement and limitations of the room and that it all took about 15-20 min, it could have been worse too.
 
juggler said:
I like that. And it's not at all what I would have come up with given your constraints.
Click to expand...
I'll take that as a compliment, so thank you :D

Even though it did not came out exactly like I planned, it was still a good excercise and something different. My portfolio is pretty boring, I might use this there just as something different until the time I have some good shots.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top