Those Green Fingered Types - HELP

MWHCVT

MWHCVT

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Okay, so I'll try and keep this as brief as possible I've had the brain wave of turning my bottom lawn into a small wild flower meadow for the spring/summer months next year and what thinking about how to go about achieving this...

Now my thought was to buy a bulk order of wild flower seed..something like this

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Economy-W...arden_PlantsSeedsBulbs_JN&hash=item4ad268ce78

Maybe also add a bag of poppy seed into the mix, mix all the seeds in with a bag or two of compost and then scatter this over the lawn and sit back and see what happens, my thoughts on doing this is that one it would look nice for a area of the garden that isn't really doing all that much, will be good for butterfly's etc, and also pelvic a bit of a photo opportunity too...

So am I simply mad or could this plan work?
 
Hi Matthew, it generally tends not to work too well due to the fact that the species of lawn grass will out-compete the wildflowers meaning they don't really get a look in.

Generally, the establishment of wildflower grassland relies on a low nutrient status in the soil, something most lawns don't have because the species of grass used will 'fix' nitrogen into the soil and gardeners often apply fertilisers to their gardens.

I have been reading recently about a company who have been producing a sort of 'faux' wildflower mix that can be established pretty much anywhere, I'll dig their details out later and pass them on if you're interested.
 
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Cartus said:
Hi Matthew, it generally tends not to work too well due to the fact that the species of lawn grass will out-compete the wildflowers meaning they don't really get a look in.

Generally, the establishment of wildflower grassland relies on a low nutrient status in the soil, something most lawns don't have because the species of grass used will 'fix' nitrogen into the soil and gardeners often apply fertilisers to their gardens.

I have been reading recently about a company who have been producing a sort of 'faux' wildflower mix that can be established pretty much anywhere, I'll dig their details out later and pass them on if you're interested.
Click to expand...

Very interested if you wouldn't mind, there is one thing for sure though our lawn isn't well fertilised, don't think we have ever fed it :lol: in fact it's probably about 60% moss :eek:

My prehapse naive hope was to let it grow up over spring/summer go to seed at the end of summer at which point it would be cut down for winter :) with the hope it would be semi self perpetuating the following spring..
 
Hi Matt, I think you'll do OK as you say there's plenty of moss in the lawn which means there's not too much grass to compete with the wild flowers.
If it were me, I'd scarify the lawn harshly and get rid of as much moss as poss. This will accomplish 2 things
  • 1. Get rid of the moss! [surprise!] and
  • 2. Create open spaces for the new plants to flourish without competition.
You can do this 2 ways, either by hand and vigorous hoeing or with a little motor cultivator and rake. It all depends really on how much of a mess you want to put up with. A gentle scarifying removing moss with a hand rake will not be too visible but major earth-works obviously won't look that good until the flowers grow but you'll end up with a better crop.
Alternatively you could spray the lawn with Glyphos and kill everything then buy a wildflower and grass mix and use that. The advantage in this is that all the grasses will be the sort that get on well with wild flowers.
Good luck with your very nice idea :)
 
Cartus said:
This is the company is remember. I had been impressed with our local council's use of their seed mixes:

http://www.pictorialmeadows.co.uk

Cheltenham: Wildflower planting Pittville Park West side. by all you need is light, on Flickr
Click to expand...

Oh that does look good, I shall check out the link thanks :)

Farmerjim said:
Hi Matt, I think you'll do OK as you say there's plenty of moss in the lawn which means there's not too much grass to compete with the wild flowers.
If it were me, I'd scarify the lawn harshly and get rid of as much moss as poss. This will accomplish 2 things
  • 1. Get rid of the moss! [surprise!] and
  • 2. Create open spaces for the new plants to flourish without competition.
You can do this 2 ways, either by hand and vigorous hoeing or with a little motor cultivator and rake. It all depends really on how much of a mess you want to put up with. A gentle scarifying removing moss with a hand rake will not be too visible but major earth-works obviously won't look that good until the flowers grow but you'll end up with a better crop.
Alternatively you could spray the lawn with Glyphos and kill everything then buy a wildflower and grass mix and use that. The advantage in this is that all the grasses will be the sort that get on well with wild flowers.
Good luck with your very nice idea :)
Click to expand...

Scarifying shouldn't prove too much of a problem, I'm sure I can borrow a scarifier it's a roughly 10x20m lawn I'm looking at doing, not all of it will be optimum as there are three large silver birch trees plus a couple of other trees, plus it's all surrounded by large trees but I'm willing to throw a little money at it by way of an experiment :)
 
Cartus said:
This is the company is remember. I had been impressed with our local council's use of their seed mixes:

http://www.pictorialmeadows.co.uk

Cheltenham: Wildflower planting Pittville Park West side. by all you need is light, on Flickr
Click to expand...

That is pretty :)
I've noticed our local council have been doing that sort of thing on the grass verges and roundabouts over the past few years.
Less maintenance for them than lawn and formal flowerbeds and it does look lovely as you drive past it.

@MWHCVT - Sounds like a great idea and would love to see how it develops.
Some great opportunities for wildlife shots next year too - are you thinking of getting a macro set up?


p.s.
MWHCVT said:
and also pelvic a bit of a photo opportunity too...
Click to expand...

What you do with your pelvis in your new meadow is entirely up to you . . . but those really aren't the sort of photo opportunities that I want to see :LOL:
 
SarahLee said:
That is pretty :)
I've noticed our local council have been doing that sort of thing on the grass verges and roundabouts over the past few years.
Less maintenance for them than lawn and formal flowerbeds and it does look lovely as you drive past it.

@MWHCVT - Sounds like a great idea and would love to see how it develops.
Some great opportunities for wildlife shots next year too - are you thinking of getting a macro set up?


p.s.


What you do with your pelvis in your new meadow is entirely up to you . . . but those really aren't the sort of photo opportunities that I want to see :LOL:
Click to expand...

I'm sure that my macro lens will see a little bit of use :D and I'm sure I'll post a few photos of it developing...as to that typo well I'm blaming that on the iPad, it really does seem to have a mind of its own when it comes to changing words shortly after I've typed them....and yes with my legendary status for epic typos that sounds like an excuse :(
 
I hope you sort out the best option for your little landscape Matt.
Wildflowers look so pretty running riot.
 
Looks like a great project Matt, I hope it pays off.:thumbs:

As for Typo's, I have a phone that does that all the time :D
 
viv1969 said:
I hope you sort out the best option for your little landscape Matt.
Wildflowers look so pretty running riot.
Click to expand...

Indeed they do, going to wait till the last cut of the lawns which I expect to be in the next few weeks, then I'm going to order up some seeds :) hopefully to turn the bottom lawn into a riot of colour for next year...

Cobra said:
Looks like a great project Matt, I hope it pays off.(y)

As for Typo's, I have a phone that does that all the time :D
Click to expand...

Cheers Chris, it's hopefully going to look great by next year :)

Predictive/adaptive text is a right PITA think I'm going to delve into the settings and disable it, assuming apple let me

fracster said:
Thanks for that link, i`m trying to persuade the land owner to let me rent a field off him to turn back to meadow land.
Click to expand...

Having stumbled across an entire field that was returned to meadow a couple of summers ago it looked spectacular, part of my drive to do this in my garden...so I hope your successful in your persuading :)
 
@MWHCVT

This is the field i`m after mate, would cost £450 per year, but that is under negotiation.


Hide3.jpg
 
fracster said:
@MWHCVT

This is the field i`m after mate, would cost £450 per year, but that is under negotiation.


Hide3.jpg
Click to expand...

Now that's got a lot of potential for it :) my Uncle left a field on his farm to its own devices for about 12 years before he passed away as he had read about how nature will start to retake managed land within 12 months and within 10 years there would be reasonably large trees self set...and it was true...was great for the wild life which was his interest in, he rented most of the land on the farm to other farmers he was only really interested in land around the house :)
 
Before starting you need to decide what you are tryig to achieve.
Mention of poppies and cornflowers are not part of a true wildflower 'meadow' and will need different treatment, because they are really arable weed species and need the soil cultivating most years to grow.
A flower-rich grass plot mown late summer for 'hay' is potentially easier and some lawns already contain a few species you might find there.
It needs to be an open sunny plot and the main thing is you must keep the fertility low by removing the material after cutting.
If I was trying to do that I would mow paths through it and just see what popped up in year one.
You can get plug plants of suitable species with much greater chance of results than sowing seeds.
If happy in the local conditions they should seed themselves for many years.
You *must* keep on top of invasive weeds like thistle, nettle and ragwort by hand weeding or spot treatment with a chemical.
These are death knell to the more delicate flowers like ox-eye daisy, red clover and such.

We have a couple of farm scale plots maintained like this and with - shall we say - intelligent management the range of flowers has increased considerably with orchids noted for the first time this year.

IMG_2181_1.jpg


IMG_2177_1.jpg
 
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Cheers Sara,Matt. The idea is to get the field more attractive to insects and smaller rodents. There is a very well respected expert in the field,scuse the pun, ready to offer her advice free of charge, I just need to get permission sorted. I will let you know if and how I get on.
 
4wd said:
Before starting you need to decide what you are tryig to achieve.
Mention of poppies and cornflowers are not part of a true wildflower 'meadow' and will need different treatment, because they are really arable weed species and need the soil cultivating most years to grow.
A flower-rich grass plot mown late summer for 'hay' is potentially easier and some lawns already contain a few species you might find there.
It needs to be an open sunny plot and the main thing is you must keep the fertility low by removing the material after cutting.
If I was trying to do that I would mow paths through it and just see what popped up in year one.
You can get plug plants of suitable species with much greater chance of results than sowing seeds.
If happy in the local conditions they should seed themselves for many years.
You *must* keep on top of invasive weeds like thistle, nettle and ragwort by hand weeding or spot treatment with a chemical.
These are death knell to the more delicate flowers like ox-eye daisy, red clover and such.

We have a couple of farm scale plots maintained like this and with - shall we say - intelligent management the range of flowers has increased considerably with orchids noted for the first time this year.

IMG_2181_1.jpg


IMG_2177_1.jpg
Click to expand...

Your right of course important to know what I want to achieve from this, and for my part it's not about making a strictly British meadow with just British flowers :) it's more about just creating and area the is going to be pleasant to look at, good for small wild life and also offer me a little bit of a photo opportunity too...some really great advice there though so thank you :)

Raptor Mike said:
I tried just chucking seeds on the lawn years ago and it didn't work.
Click to expand...

Yeah I am going to have to put a little more work than just scatter and hope, as I'll just end up throwing away seed

fracster said:
Cheers Sara,Matt. The idea is to get the field more attractive to insects and smaller rodents. There is a very well respected expert in the field,scuse the pun, ready to offer her advice free of charge, I just need to get permission sorted. I will let you know if and how I get on.
Click to expand...

Look forward to it :)
 
MWHCVT said:
Okay, so I'll try and keep this as brief as possible I've had the brain wave of turning my bottom lawn into a small wild flower meadow for the spring/summer months next year and what thinking about how to go about achieving this...

Now my thought was to buy a bulk order of wild flower seed..something like this

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Economy-W...arden_PlantsSeedsBulbs_JN&hash=item4ad268ce78

Maybe also add a bag of poppy seed into the mix, mix all the seeds in with a bag or two of compost and then scatter this over the lawn and sit back and see what happens, my thoughts on doing this is that one it would look nice for a area of the garden that isn't really doing all that much, will be good for butterfly's etc, and also pelvic a bit of a photo opportunity too...

So am I simply mad or could this plan work?
Click to expand...
This what I mean with the poppies and cornflower type of seed mix - it's unlikely anything will grow putting seed into existing grass, you'd need cultivate somehow either dig and/or rotavate then sow onto bare soil.
It would be best to gather seeds late in the season, and store in a dry a place and sow again next spring.
Most if not all are annuals.
 
we tried it a couple of years ago ,the main disadvantages were ,the grasses ran rampant ,the weeds went berserk as well .the flowers that did succeed never managed to attract much wildlife and it also gave local cats a good hiding spot to prey on the few birds that were attracted to it ,the following year we mowed it flat again
 
4wd said:
This what I mean with the poppies and cornflower type of seed mix - it's unlikely anything will grow putting seed into existing grass, you'd need cultivate somehow either dig and/or rotavate then sow onto bare soil.
It would be best to gather seeds late in the season, and store in a dry a place and sow again next spring.
Most if not all are annuals.
Click to expand...

Right now my plan was relatively simple that being to scarify the area, then I was planning on mixing the seeds in with a load of compost, to give the seed some ground to germinate in, to hide enough of the seed from the birds and finally to also slow the grass down just enough to give the flowers time to get a foot hold...

the black fox said:
we tried it a couple of years ago ,the main disadvantages were ,the grasses ran rampant ,the weeds went berserk as well .the flowers that did succeed never managed to attract much wildlife and it also gave local cats a good hiding spot to prey on the few birds that were attracted to it ,the following year we mowed it flat again
Click to expand...

Yeah I'm not really happy about giving the cats more cover however this will be at the bottom of the garden so a good 50-75m from the nearest feeding station...worrying that it didn't work really well for you
 
4wd said:
You can get plug plants of suitable species with much greater chance of results than sowing seeds.
Click to expand...
Thats an interesting and informative post :thumbs:
any chance of a "heads up" on the source and types of "plugs" that are suitable,?
(crap clay soil)
 
If you want the really easy way you can now buy the equivalent of turf but instead of grass they are sown with wild flowers. Just lay it down and you have an instant wild flower lawn.
But.....as others have said you need relatively poor soil quality and you will have to work to keep the weeds down.

A wild flower lawn/meadow is not a no, or even low, maintenance option.

If you are not prepared to do some work then you will struggle with whatever you choose to do.

No disrespect but the present state of your lawn doesn't inspire confidence.
 
I chucked a load of seeds down onto the grass and left it but all we got was long grass. I've seen on the tele since you need to get the grass up and fork it all over.
 
4wd said:
You can google it but these look OK
http://www.meadowmania.co.uk/wild-flower-meadow/wild-flower-plug-plants.htm
Not cheap but you would make little groups that might seed if happy

These specialise in plants for lawns
http://www.wildflowerlawnsandmeadows.com/shop/category/buy-plant-plugs/
Click to expand...
Nice one thanks, its always good to get an experts point of view (y)


mickledore said:
If you want the really easy way you can now buy the equivalent of turf but instead of grass they are sown with wild flowers. Just lay it down and you have an instant wild flower lawn.
Click to expand...
Interesting fact, I didn't know that (y)

mickledore said:
No disrespect but the present state of your lawn doesn't inspire confidence.
Click to expand...
Not quite sure who that was aimed at?
No one's posted any pictures apart from Ade, and that was a "meadow"
OK scratch that I see that Matt posted a description :)
 
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mickledore said:
If you want the really easy way you can now buy the equivalent of turf but instead of grass they are sown with wild flowers. Just lay it down and you have an instant wild flower lawn.
But.....as others have said you need relatively poor soil quality and you will have to work to keep the weeds down.

A wild flower lawn/meadow is not a no, or even low, maintenance option.

If you are not prepared to do some work then you will struggle with whatever you choose to do.

No disrespect but the present state of your lawn doesn't inspire confidence.
Click to expand...

We've actually spent a lot of time and money trying to impove the quality of our lawn in the way of removal of moss but nothing has ever truly worked and in recent years have somewhat come to accept the moss, this is purely just an exercise in trying something different, we don't have the best soil, it's very sandy

Could be said this drive to do this project is a little part of the new me :D

4wd said:
You can google it but these look OK
http://www.meadowmania.co.uk/wild-flower-meadow/wild-flower-plug-plants.htm
Not cheap but you would make little groups that might seed if happy

These specialise in plants for lawns
http://www.wildflowerlawnsandmeadows.com/shop/category/buy-plant-plugs/
Click to expand...

I'll check those out myself too :)
 
I'd like to see more mown areas given the meadow treatment, apart from the wildlife benefit and looking pretty the reduced mowing is probably cheaper.
The small scale hay crop can be used as a seed source for new areas, and fed to animals such as horses so long as no ragwort is present.

Stonegrave near Helmsley

cIVAR1z.jpg

nv1OIvE.jpg
 
Good advice here already.

Also have a look at yellow rattle seed, Matt. Two problems of setting up a wild flower meadow have been mentioned above. High fertility of soils and grasses dominating. Fertility can be reduced by not using fertilisers, mowing and removing the clippings and also good raking which will reduce the amount of dead plant material. Yellow rattle can help reduce the effect of grasses dominating the area - it is semi parasitic on grasses. Link - http://wildseed.co.uk/page/using-yellow-rattle-to-increase-species-diversity

Dave
 
mickledore said:
Here you are...a wildflower turf mat. Note the comment about soil quality!

http://www.meadowmat.com/meadowmat/...PUFQpEGUis3vRltvkTGH8zMBrN8Kmm5EtnBoC3sLw_wcB
Click to expand...

Damn that's expensive coming in at nearly £3,000 to do the area I'm looking at :eek: that said I don't know how much normal turf is either so maybe I'm just misguided on price :P

4wd said:
I'd like to see more mown areas given the meadow treatment, apart from the wildlife benefit and looking pretty the reduced mowing is probably cheaper.
The small scale hay crop can be used as a seed source for new areas, and fed to animals such as horses so long as no ragwort is present.

Stonegrave near Helmsley

cIVAR1z.jpg

nv1OIvE.jpg
Click to expand...

I'm with you I'd love to see more areas turned over to wild flowers as it always looks so pretty

Tringa said:
Good advice here already.

Also have a look at yellow rattle seed, Matt. Two problems of setting up a wild flower meadow have been mentioned above. High fertility of soils and grasses dominating. Fertility can be reduced by not using fertilisers, mowing and removing the clippings and also good raking which will reduce the amount of dead plant material. Yellow rattle can help reduce the effect of grasses dominating the area - it is semi parasitic on grasses. Link - http://wildseed.co.uk/page/using-yellow-rattle-to-increase-species-diversity

Dave
Click to expand...

Thanks Dave, was looking at the yellow rattle seed last night after reading about it on one of the links above...we haven't used fertilisers on the lawns in years and all cuttings are removed so at least that part is in order...going to have to scarify it but that's not too bad if I can borrow a scarifier from a friend :D
 
MWHCVT said:
Damn that's expensive coming in at nearly £3,000 to do the area I'm looking at :eek: that said I don't know how much normal turf is either so maybe I'm just misguided on price :p
Click to expand...

Nope you're not misguided. That is expensive. Think Plan B might have to be used instead! Sorry - I was only trying:oops: :$
:oops: :$:oops: :$
 
mickledore said:
Nope you're not misguided. That is expensive. Think Plan B might have to be used instead! Sorry - I was only trying:oops: :$
:oops: :$:oops: :$
Click to expand...

Don't be sorry, the help is appreciated, if I was only doing a small area I'd go down the turf route in a heartbeat but I don't think I want to spend 3k on this project alone :) as I've got a lot more in the garden that needs some attention most of the borders have been somewhat neglected because of poor health on my part and more so my dads...
 
Possibly too late for this year's harvest but if I was going to do this, I would collect seed from plants I wanted to have in the wild flower area and sow them on freshly rotovated ground. I would be tempted to lift the turf from the area to reduce the competition the grasses would give but leave any that seeded themselves onto the patch. Unfortunately, we have little more than a pocket handkerchief to play with and most of that is covered by either a patio or a sun lounger.

Matt, a pond (reasonable sized) would bring plenty of wildlife in if there's any sort of corridor for things to get to you along.
 
We've done this a lot mate so if you want to chat it through let me know - but in essence you need to get rid of the grass first to give the seed a chance - either by spraying it off, rotovating, or covering with black plastic and letting it die.

then scarify the area and seed it - hang up some cd's to keep the birds away

when the meadow grows in late august /early sept (after its set seed) strim it off and rake off the 'hay' in order to lower the nutrient load

peice of cake

more info here http://www.plantlife.org.uk/things_to_do/grow_wild/wildmeadow/
 
Nod said:
Possibly too late for this year's harvest but if I was going to do this, I would collect seed from plants I wanted to have in the wild flower area and sow them on freshly rotovated ground. I would be tempted to lift the turf from the area to reduce the competition the grasses would give but leave any that seeded themselves onto the patch. Unfortunately, we have little more than a pocket handkerchief to play with and most of that is covered by either a patio or a sun lounger.

Matt, a pond (reasonable sized) would bring plenty of wildlife in if there's any sort of corridor for things to get to you along.
Click to expand...

Yep I'd imagine it is too late to collect them now...we have a fair amount of wild life as it is, just wanting to do something a little different and attract a few more things into the garden, we have 2 and a half ponds...I say half as the third isn't really a pond it's more a water garden/bog garden that performs the role of a natural filter bed for the main pond

big soft moose said:
We've done this a lot mate so if you want to chat it through let me know - but in essence you need to get rid of the grass first to give the seed a chance - either by spraying it off, rotovating, or covering with black plastic and letting it die.

then scarify the area and seed it - hang up some cd's to keep the birds away

when the meadow grows in late august /early sept (after its set seed) strim it off and rake off the 'hay' in order to lower the nutrient load

peice of cake

more info here http://www.plantlife.org.uk/things_to_do/grow_wild/wildmeadow/
Click to expand...

Cheers buddy, I will probably have you regretting the chat it through with a series of questions that follow :lol:
 
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