Things Are Looking Bleak.

[Dale.]

I don't often dwell on the news, I have a quick scan through in the mornings or when I'm in the bath. Looking at it today, it's quite depressing, whatwith the gas prices, energy firms going bust, petrol stations closing, a shortage of lorry drivers, inflation expected to hit 4% by the end of the year, not to mention the C19 word. I think we're in for a rocky winter.

I know some of it is just probably a blip but I don't think I'll be looking at the news in depth again for some time.

I think I need a beer, if I can find some.

 

[TCR4x4]

Several of those could be solved with fair wages and working conditions for HGV drivers and someone to sort the unfit for purpose DVLA.

 

[lindsay]

Exactly. I looked at HGV wages and was horrified. Just like pilots, you have to pay for your own training, exams and medicals, then consider yourself lucky to be paid at all for long hours, high stress and personal risk. I've seen some drivers say it: a mugs game.

 

[TCR4x4]

There was a thread on a truck forum last week. An insurer has refused to pay out for a load that was stolen in a Motorway service area overnight as they deemed the load to be unsupervised.
The driver was in the cab asleep, getting his daily rest as required by law.

The company in question has now said drivers must be aware of their load at all times, and stop its theft.
So now, the driver on £10 a hour not only has to drive for 10 hours a day and work for 15 hours a day on shift, he must now also work 24 hours a day as a security guard, without pay for the remaining hours after his 15 hour “normal” shift ends. This is of course illegal, but since when have hauliers given a damn about that.

And we wonder why nobody wants to do the job anymore.

 

[Cobra]

I've seen some drivers say it: a mugs game.

It was a mugs game when I quit about 30 years ago.
No matter what they paid me now, I'd never return to it.

 

[F1.2]

Exactly. I looked at HGV wages and was horrified. Just like pilots, you have to pay for your own training, exams and medicals, then consider yourself lucky to be paid at all for long hours, high stress and personal risk. I've seen some drivers say it: a mugs game.

I am / was a hgv driver , Had my licence renewal in the post 8/8/21 , You need to have a HGV medical , Booked that and passed without any issues £50 , Sent everything to DVLA on 14 August , My licence expired 15/9/21 and I am still waiting for my new licence , You can't get a reply on the phone , I was on a mission and gave up after 100 atempts over a 5 hour period
I tried to hire a 7.5 ton lorry and NO Sir sorry we need your current plastic card or no can do .

 

[F1.2]

Also the reason a large propotion of EU drivers left was the end of IR35 Tax dodging
When they had to pay normal TAX amounts like UK workers they up and left

 

[mex]

Exactly. I looked at HGV wages and was horrified. Just like pilots, you have to pay for your own training, exams and medicals, then consider yourself lucky to be paid at all for long hours, high stress and personal risk. I've seen some drivers say it: a mugs game.

Paying for your own training does not only apply to HGV drivers, electricians and gas engineers have to do the same. A gas engineer has to renew his qualification every 5 years, it's not cheap either, add to that he has to buy public liability, pay Gas Safe Register a yearly subscription to be legally allowed to work, get his flue gas analyser recalibrated every year ( renewing the sensors in the thing every other year), run his van, buy his tools, buy materials ( the price of copper alone is crazy) and still try and be competitive. It's now also a mugs game.

 

[andya700]

Exactly. I looked at HGV wages and was horrified. Just like pilots, you have to pay for your own training, exams and medicals, then consider yourself lucky to be paid at all for long hours, high stress and personal risk. I've seen some drivers say it: a mugs game.

Not just pilots and HGV drivers, have you seen the cost of nurse's training and what they are paid? That is why the NHS is in such a state financially. I love the NHS but their strategies are rubbish. They spend so much on agency nurses and consultants etc., the costs are crippling it.
Isn't it something like £5K to get an HGV licence?

 

[lindsay]

Whilst I agree about the poor strategy and strategic management of the NHS, at least nurses don't have to pay for their training themselves.

 

[sirch]

They spend so much on agency nurses and consultants etc., the costs are crippling it.

Sorry if this is somewhat off topic but "outsourcing" nursing is driven by Government policy and there is nothing that NHS management can do about it, it is all part of the creeping privatisation of the NHS. The government directly controls nurses' pay and keeps it artificially low, this encourages nurses to move to work for private companies that then sell the nurses' services back to the NHS. This means that nurses are moved from non-profit to for-profit so businesses can then make a profit off nurses time and the nurses lose out by losing benefits such as a decent pension, union protection etc.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

...and the nurses lose out by losing benefits such as a decent pension, union protection etc.

This is true.

I was in at the beginning of the whole sorry process, writing some of the early software required by the new "trusts" to meet the needs of the process which required charging for work. At all three of the trusts where I worked, there was fear for the future and nothing but loathing for the government that was creating the process. The abolition of the original Primary Care Trusts and NHS Care Trusts in 2013 was an admission that the system was a disaster in both financial and healthcare terms but successive governments have refused to re-integrate the NHS.

The increase in costs was something we were all aware of from the first tests of the contract system, which may have taken some politicians by surprise but merely confirmed the fears of the NHS staff that I worked with.

 

[andya700]

Sorry if this is somewhat off topic but "outsourcing" nursing is driven by Government policy and there is nothing that NHS management can do about it, it is all part of the creeping privatisation of the NHS. The government directly controls nurses' pay and keeps it artificially low, this encourages nurses to move to work for private companies that then sell the nurses' services back to the NHS. This means that nurses are moved from non-profit to for-profit so businesses can then make a profit off nurses time and the nurses lose out by losing benefits such as a decent pension, union protection etc.

I can only go by what I was told last year by a hospital pharmacist who lives opposite me. So, how long has the racket which you described been going on, because I think the press would have a field day with it.

 

[sirch]

the press

The right-wing tory press? Jeremy Hunt who was health secretary for many years and now chairs the parliamentary health committee co-authored a book on how to privatise the NHS and it included phrases like “Our ambition should be to break down the barriers between private and public provision, in effect denationalising the provision of health care in Britain.”

 

[Mr Bump]

Exactly. I looked at HGV wages and was horrified. Just like pilots, you have to pay for your own training, exams and medicals, then consider yourself lucky to be paid at all for long hours, high stress and personal risk. I've seen some drivers say it: a mugs game.

yep its been a mugs game for years, a lot of problems are the same garbage as before though, over consumerism, we are now driving everywhere again so demand for fuel is higher.
As I said earlier IR35 is a big problem and has caused a lot of headaches for industries, the HMRC are to blame for that.
Also Brexit, wether folk like it or not a huge amount of supply issues are due to that.

 

[lindsay]

I didn’t realise drivers were treated as self employed by companies rather than actual employees. No wonder IR35 is an issue.

 

[Dale.]

I too hadn't realised the challenges of lorry drivers, it's been enlightening reading the replies.

I quite often fancied being a trucker, I don't mind night shift, not that I've done one for a long time and I like seeing the country too. Trucking strikes me as being, at part in least as being quite solitary, which suits me fine.

I've rethunk that one now.

 

[onomatopoeia]

Isn't it something like £5K to get an HGV licence?

Place near me charges £1125 inc test fee for C+E training (4 days). Seems like you don't need to do C on its own first nowadays.

 

[Mr Bump]

I didn’t realise drivers were treated as self employed by companies rather than actual employees. No wonder IR35 is an issue.

yep they were included in the IR35 legislation from April when the rules changed.
so basically they went from £18/hour limited company to about £12 IR35 Umbrella etc so loads have left the business.

 

[TCR4x4]

Place near me charges £1125 inc test fee for C+E training (4 days). Seems like you don't need to do C on its own first nowadays.

That's only happened in the last week as the government scramble to try get more drivers.

You also need a medical and to complete the DCPC, which is another £700+.

So £3-5k was about average.

 

[lindsay]

yep they were included in the IR35 legislation from April when the rules changed.
so basically they went from £18/hour limited company to about £12 IR35 Umbrella etc so loads have left the business.

Same as is happening in IT then, for the same reason (although there has been more willingness by some (usually govt) clients to increase the gross rate to compensate. Talk about own goals!

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

IR35 was never a problem. Trying to cheat your fellow tax payers was.

I was a contractor for many years and never had a single problem with IR35. I put this down to having a good accountant, who made sure we were honest. This approach (surprise, surprise) turned out to be the best policy.

 

[woof woof]

On a positive note... Current events have perhaps made us reassess who essential workers are. The world may be a better place if conditions and pay are adjusted accordingly.

 

[F1.2]

Still no licence , This will be fun as I am moving home on 6/10/21 if there is enough fuel for the lorry and my vehicle

 

[Dale.]

On a positive note... Current events have perhaps made us reassess who essential workers are. The world may be a better place if conditions and pay are adjusted accordingly.

 

[Graham W]

On a positive note... Current events have perhaps made us reassess who essential workers are. The world may be a better place if conditions and pay are adjusted accordingly.

You'd like to think so...don't hold your breath.

 

[Mr Bump]

IR35 was never a problem. Trying to cheat your fellow tax payers was.

I was a contractor for many years and never had a single problem with IR35. I put this down to having a good accountant, who made sure we were honest. This approach (surprise, surprise) turned out to be the best policy.

not true that the problem with IR35 up to the recent changes was the responsibility was put in the hands of the contractor to decide in/out, which quite frankly just got slid to the side by every contractor, having a clever accountant is bunkum he/she can only follow law and tax rules and advise accordingly. what has now happened is the responsibility of in/out or IR35 has been placed firmly with the Employer hence they shoulder the risk as it should have been years ago.

 

[lindsay]

Exactly @Mr Bump
IR35 (introduced by Gordon Brown but made so much more aggressive by the Conservatives) seeks to tax contractors as if employees whilst still demanding employers NI payments and providing none of the benefits of the alleged disguised employment. Contractors pay their correct amount of tax (in the main); what is unfair is to tax them as employees and employers at the same time as well as giving them no access to employment privileges nor unemployment benefits.

 

[Mr Bump]

Exactly @Mr Bump
IR35 (introduced by Gordon Brown but made so much more aggressive by the Conservatives) seeks to tax contractors as if employees whilst still demanding employers NI payments and providing none of the benefits of the alleged disguised employment. Contractors pay their correct amount of tax (in the main); what is unfair is to tax them as employees and employers at the same time as well as giving them no access to employment privileges nor unemployment benefits.

I certainly agree with the NI thing @lindsay especially paying both sides of the coin, i have a few friends who are deeply in that hole, but the overwhelming issue was contractors had to be forced to comply. maybe the HMRC will come up with better solutions in the future, i know my contracting days are coming to a natural end as i plan to retire in about a year so just need to eek out a pleasant finish, i am currently on a 12 month contract which is classed as "statement of works" so i am still technically out of IR35, but the rate is quite poor considering.

 

[lindsay]

I'm in a similar position, imminent retirement but doing short term work for three concurrent clients and providing my own kit for each, etc, so genuinely self employed, but ironically I know several people who have been working for the Home Office on continuously renewed contracts for about 15 years now and getting away with it thanks to the HO declaring them outside IR35; surely that will change soon, after DWP and several other gov depts have been caught out and fined by HMRC. Has HMRC taken itself to court on this yet? It should have as they are as guilty as anyone for blanket IR35 determinations.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

he/she can only follow law and tax rules and advise accordingly.

This is true. So far as I'm concerned, I choose to work through a properly structured and run company and if that meant paying both employer's and employee's NI contributions, that was entirely fair to me.

Contractors pay their correct amount of tax (in the main);

While true of the majority, there were too many, in my experience, who thought that cheating was fair play.

 

[Mr Bump]

This is true. So far as I'm concerned, I choose to work through a properly structured and run company and if that meant paying both employer's and employee's NI contributions, that was entirely fair to me.

While true of the majority, there were too many, in my experience, who thought that cheating was fair play.

I admire your diligence for many years i took minimum wage and expenses and maxed out my dividends paying just the corp tax like every contractor. About 6 years ago i decided having paid my mortgage off to switch to a directors pension in place of the dividends hence losing pretty much all tax liabilities, people think also that is cheating as well, you can't win really.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

people think also that is cheating as well, you can't win really.

If you do that when others can't, then you are cheating. Then again, the whole contracting thing is really just another cheat relative to employees. However, it's a cheat created by government after government to help their friends and families. Hence it's not a cheat at all, because the leaders encourage it.

'Tis a puzzlement...

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u5iHzag120

 

[JohnC6]

And some people don't think we need trade unions these days. Too many employers would have us back in the days of yore re pay and conditions without the clout of unions yet,many industries don't have union representation within the workplace. Amazon has never allowed Unions into their workplaces.

The practice of home care companies not paying care workers travelling time between clients is one example of how a trade union can intervene. Unison took three Care companies to court 12 months ago and won. What kind of mentality does an employer have to not pay an employee for time spent travelling between clients ?

Below link explains what happened. It's a short read. The dispute against three care firms commissioned by Haringey Council in North London was over their failure to pay care workers time spent travelling between peoples' houses, despite the staff having to get from one home to the next to complete their job.

It looks to me as though it's Unison that has brought the case against the Care Providers. Haringey Council (of all councils)and the NHS, who commission these companies, are just as culpable because they know why the costs to them are lower than they should be. Of course they are on a shoe-string because of government underfunding.

Ten home care workers have been awarded an average of £10,000 each in back pay after a tribunal ruled they had been illegally paid less than half the minimum wage, with one of the care workers saying they had been treated like they were "nobody".

https://www.homecare.co.uk/news/article.cfm/id/1633293/legal-victory-win-for-care-workers-not-paid-travel-time-to-visit-vulnerable-in-their-homes

From the article: Quote of Dave Prentice Unison's Gen Sec. “This ruling sends a message to other care bosses that it’s completely unacceptable to pay staff illegal poverty wages,” says Mr Prentis. “The government too must get tougher with employers so there’s an end to these law-breaking practices.”

The care companies involved – Kaamil Education Limited, Diligent Care Services Limited, and Premier Carewaiting Limited – have been ordered to pay more than £100,000 in backdated earnings. This is the equivalent of nine months' work and annual leave.