Theatre photography equipment

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Phil Timms

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Help needed please with kit choice..
Keen amateur here and as well as enjoying capturing nature, scenery etc for own enjoyment Ive started to do some theatre / show photography which of course brings its own challenges.
(apologies for long post while I try and set the scene)

By problem is budget! If cost was not prohibitive I'd be investing in the latest probably full frame? with high fps rate, low light performance and a couple of decent lenses with 2.8 or better aperture available. WiFi connectivity also etc.

My old original starter kit was a Sony a290 with a cheap tamron 70-300
Which although I'd get some decent results it was too slow at barely 3fps and noisy old thing, plus lens only giving me f4.5/5.6

So I then got a lumix bridge fz200 due to the 2.8 fixed aperture, massive fps and super zoom all in one and yes it's helped achieve some cracking shots in difficult and wildly varying lighting, whilst being super quiet so I can shoot close to audience and during quiet scenes....
But.....! Well yes its still lacking that quality I want and I guess just feels like taking a toy to into battle (if that makes sense)

Because I've got the 2 old a mount lenses for a Sony I've been close to going for a good condition used A77ii the spec of which will I'm sure tick many boxes.
But keep reading about problems with noise over 1600 iso which is putting me off (I realise I'd probably need to look at a better lens tool)

Any thoughts and advice please....?
 
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Theatre is hard on your equipment. Here are a few things that I’ve learn.

1 - You need to know the play/musical. Know where they hit what mark and when.
2 - Your gear need to be able to handle low light, as there will be no flash.
3 - I find Aperture Priority the best the light changes a lot, also, use spot or partial metering, not the whole scene due to spot light. (edit, this is before Auto ISO, this is what I would do now)

I shot musical theatres for a few years as a side gig, used to go to rehearsals once or twice a week leading up to it as they would only practice 1 or 2 scenes at each rehearsal then you can only shoot during the dressed rehearsal and it is when you have to get all the shots. You are never allowed to photograph during the show in front of a live audience.

Due to the theatre and lack of space, you can’t exactly move around easily in the auditorium so I tend to find a spot dead centre to the stage and slightly higher by a few rows with a Sigma 70-200/2.8. I frame it so at 70mm I can cover the whole stage when I pull back and 200mm to get half body shots. You probably know that having tried a 70-300.

That was about 5 years ago now, and it was with my Canon 5D2 so
 
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I do theatre photography and do final dress rehearsal photography for several groups.

You need 'fast' lenses - ie ones with a wide aperture, f/2.8 better if zooms and cameras capable of working at hi ISOs and no flash. You don't need high FPS for theatre.

One of the groups I shoot performs in the round, so no traditional stage with a proscenium arch. Therefore no scenery to lights to shine upon and the lights are generally overhead pointing down. That's a bit of a challenge as light levels lower than a traditional stage, and you're also shooting four plays in one as the audience is one all four sides of the performing area.

I used to shoot Aperture priority, but now cameras seem to have Auto ISO sorted, I shoot manual, but fix aperture wide open or near wide open, I fix a shutter speed to something I know I can usually hand hold comfortably at (IS is a bonus, but doesn't fix motion blur) and enable Auto ISO. Shoot in RAW for better ability for colour correction, and its up to you if you correct it entirely, or retain the slightly orange tone tungsten stage lights often give.

I don't use flash (its frowned upon) but I have flash guns on top of the cameras with flash switched off purely for the focus assist functions some cameras have.

Knowing the script is an advantage. I don't, but I have some moments with the director beforehand to point out key areas.

You will delete a lot, but hopefully get a suitable proportion of keepers. Don't pixel peep if you don't like noisy images, but a bit of noise reduction and they look fine even when printed to a moderate size.

I tend to use lenses in the 24-70 range and a 70-200.

You have to be invisible and not disturb the performance.

The last performance I did was very dimly lit and was shooting at ISO 10,000 for much of it.
 
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toohuge said:
What is your budget?

Best value for low light, high fps is the Nikon d3s. You’ll get usable results up to iso 12800 and pair that with an inexpensive but brilliant 80-200 and you’ll be set.
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Thanks I'll definitely take a look at that. About £500 for budget probably. Hoping to find something on jessops to do on credit and spread the cost
 
The few Sony owners I know always moan about poor battery life, but I've never used one myself, so I don't know the truth.
I'm not sure why you need a high frame rate for theatre, they wont be happy if you "machinegun" their rehearsal, the trick is to know the show and predict the key monents. Most shows will have at least two full rehearsals, a tech rehearsal to check lighting and music with the cast running through the show, and a full dress. Sometimes they'll have another full run through before the dress.
 
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swanseamale47 said:
I'm not sure why you need a high frame rate for theatre, they wont be happy if you "machinegun" their rehearsal, the trick is to know the show and predict the key monents.
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Yes. I was wondering about that as well. I did a bit of theatre photography between 1968 and 1980. I used a Rolleiflex T with a fixed f3.5 Tessar because that was what I had. Having established friendly relations with the director I worked on stage during the first dress rehearsal when the cast tended to be a lot more relaxed. I guess that things have changed a lot in theatreland so this will probably be of historical interest if at all.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
Yes. I was wondering about that as well. I did a bit of theatre photography between 1968 and 1980. I used a Rolleiflex T with a fixed f3.5 Tessar because that was what I had. Having established friendly relations with the director I worked on stage during the first dress rehearsal when the cast tended to be a lot more relaxed. I guess that things have changed a lot in theatreland so this will probably be of historical interest if at all.
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i mention about fps rate as alot of the shows i do are musicals with dance numbers so its useful to shoot a burst and capture just the right moment
 
I have limited experience photographing in a theatre but the pictures were great. In both instances it was a Gilbert and Sullivan production and I was invited to attend the final Dress rehearsals. All photography is available light but the theatre lights are strong. One thing to be aware of is that the light can vary considerably across the stage. I could find no reasons for high frame rates and took single shots. The producer spoke to us before the start and we could take up any position in the stalls or dress circle but must not move around during the performance. I chose a position in the stalls about 2/3 back which meant I was level with about 1 Metre above the stage level. I mainly use a 70-200mm f2.8 lens (on a tripod) though it would not have been necessary to have f2.8. Most shots were 1/125 to 1/400, f3.5 to f5.6 and ISO 1600 or 3200. This was an amateur production but in a professional Theatre so the lighting was good. I used the camera on manual everything and sent copies of some of the images to the Theatre Group.

Dave
 
swanseamale47 said:
The few Sony owners I know always moan about poor battery life, but I've never used one myself, so I don't know the truth.
I'm not sure why you need a high frame rate for theatre, they wont be happy if you "machinegun" their rehearsal, the trick is to know the show and predict the key monents. Most shows will have at least two full rehearsals, a tech rehearsal to check lighting and music with the cast running through the show, and a full dress. Sometimes they'll have another full run through before the dress.
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i mention about fps rate as alot of the shows i do are musicals with dance numbers so its useful to shoot a burst and capture just the right moment.
as for your machine gunning comment..? please give me credit.. thats exactly why a quiet shutter / no mirror slap would be ideal.
yes im very familiar with the performance rehearsals schedule etc ... attend rehearsals and dress rehearsals to be able to roam freely by stage and then shoot as stealthly as possible from opposite sides of isles over the shows to get plenty of angles and coverage
 
I enjoy shooting theatre for schools, it's a good work out!

I get close to the stage as I can and follow the action around, so I can shoot from the side when few people are on stage to fill the frame and not have big gaps between them.

At leatherhead theatre when the cover is over the orchestra pit I can freely move around that and avoid getting on the stage itself.

When a lot of people flood the stage I get back and out the way and so I can get wide shots

For theatres I use 24-70 2.8 + 70-200 2.8
For small stages I use a couple of primes

No problem machine gunning with a pair of Sony A9 in silent :)
 
I've never found mirror noise to be a problem, even when an action sequence requires a burst. There isn't an audience to annoy, and the cast should be 'in the zone' anyway, and if there distracted by one chap with a camera in the semi-darkness of off stage, they're not ready for an audience anyway - and its good practice to recover if they are.
 
andrewc said:
You don't need high FPS for theatre.
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Here's a different take on it.

If your shutter speed is a fraction of the mains electricity frequency (i.e. faster than 1/50th of a second), which of course it nearly always is for theatrical photography, you can get flicker effects from the lights. With tungsten lights, if you shoot at the wrong part of the AC cycle the image can come out under-exposed and perhaps a bit warm, but these issues can generally be corrected for to some extent if the shot is otherwise good and worth saving. However, with modern LED theatrical lights, the flicker effects are much more difficult to work with. White LED light is created by using red, green and blue LEDs, and they seem to have slightly different electrical characteristics, so at different points in the AC cycle you can see variation in colour as well as variation in brightness.

One obvious potential workaround is to shoot in bursts, at a high frame rate. That way you're more likely to get one image without flicker artefacts. Of course the downside is that you have to look at a lot more images after you've finished the shoot.
 
swanseamale47 said:
The few Sony owners I know always moan about poor battery life, but I've never used one myself, so I don't know the truth.
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The Problems with comparatively low battery life were with the E-Mount cameras using the smaller battery - their A-Mount cameras had a different battery and were fine for battery life.
The latest E-Mount cameras address this with a bigger battery, but even with the older E-Mount cameras it's easy to carry a couple of spare batteries, and change at the first convenient moment once the battery drops to 20% or less.
 
Phil Timms said:
whilst being super quiet so I can shoot close to audience and during quiet scenes....
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It's all been said.. But what i would suggest... your should be shooting on the last night of full dress rehersal not on the night of the live show... Sometimes the set isn't quite ready but its 90% there. heres mine.. all paid jobs :) . www.kipax.com/plays
 
KIPAX said:
It's all been said.. But what i would suggest... your should be shooting on the last night of full dress rehersal not on the night of the live show... Sometimes the set isn't quite ready but its 90% there. heres mine.. all paid jobs :) . www.kipax.com/plays
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so what is your go to theatre kit?
 
Phil Timms said:
so what is your go to theatre kit?
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A couple of miles off your budjet which is why I kepy my comment to when rather than what with :) Canon 1dxMKII + Canon 70-200 mkII and Canon 24-70 MKii so north of £8k
 
It's going to be tough with your budget. Staying Sony, you could look at an A68 plus a used Sigma 70-200 f2.8 or an A7 mkI plus adapter and a beer can for better noise handling at high iso. Otherwise Nikon D600/610 for about £400 and a used siggy zoom again.

It would be cheaper with 2 older A mount bodies and a couple of fast primes than a fast zoom and more recent camera, I reckon.
 
ancient_mariner said:
It's going to be tough with your budget. Staying Sony, you could look at an A68 plus a used Sigma 70-200 f2.8 or an A7 mkI plus adapter and a beer can for better noise handling at high iso. Otherwise Nikon D600/610 for about £400 and a used siggy zoom again.

It would be cheaper with 2 older A mount bodies and a couple of fast primes than a fast zoom and more recent camera, I reckon.
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Thanks for ideas..
Eerr 'beer can'?
 
StewartR said:
Here's a different take on it.

If your shutter speed is a fraction of the mains electricity frequency (i.e. faster than 1/50th of a second), which of course it nearly always is for theatrical photography, you can get flicker effects from the lights. With tungsten lights, if you shoot at the wrong part of the AC cycle the image can come out under-exposed and perhaps a bit warm, but these issues can generally be corrected for to some extent if the shot is otherwise good and worth saving. However, with modern LED theatrical lights, the flicker effects are much more difficult to work with. White LED light is created by using red, green and blue LEDs, and they seem to have slightly different electrical characteristics, so at different points in the AC cycle you can see variation in colour as well as variation in brightness.

One obvious potential workaround is to shoot in bursts, at a high frame rate. That way you're more likely to get one image without flicker artefacts. Of course the downside is that you have to look at a lot more images after you've finished the shoot.
Click to expand...

Although my current cameras warn me of flicker (7D2 and 1DX2) I've never notice their warnings at the venues I frequent - which are currently 90% traditional tungsten theatre lumieres and some LED lamps with colour changing ability for colour washes.

When I started doing that type of work I was using a 40D / 50D plus a 50mm f1.8 and a 24-105 f4 IS. Had to use slower shutter speeds to keep ISO down, so more rejects. Happy to work with much higher ISO on the current bodies.
 
How would I do it on a £ 500 budget.

One body. one lens.

If I could get close to the stage, then a Sigma 24-70 f2.8 MPB £ 365 and then the best body with the balance

If I was further away from the stage, then a Sigma 70-200 f2.8 for £ 319 and then the balance with the best body available.

I've chosen Canon simply because I know them and Noinks etc are alien to me - and there is a wider selection of used stuff for canons and nikons, but I am sure there are similar offerings for other brands.

Bodies - Canon 600D for £ 139 or a 60D for £ 174 or a 50D.
 
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Phil Timms said:
Also put interest why do you suggest A68 rather than the A77ii?
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It's 2 years younger, so I'd *hoped* for a better sensor for handling low light AND might be a bit cheaper. However having just had a look at DXO it seems the 77ii has the better sensor, so I'd stick with that if I were you.

Phil Timms said:
Thanks for ideas..
Eerr 'beer can'?
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70-210 f4 was commonly called the beercan because of size & shape. They're often dead cheap and £60 or less, and outperform the Nikon 70-210/80-200 f4 zooms of a similar age in terms of sharpness while being a lot cheaper.
 
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My experience of theatre production photos is all at the professional end and not as the one taking the photos... I work as a Production Electrician in the industry so my responsibility is to look after all the lighting for the show, set it up in the production week/s (when the photos are likely taken) and then if it tours look after it around the country. Anyway....

From my position sat behind many a photographer over the years is that the high end dSLRs (so Canon 1D series or Nikon D3/4/5 / D810 / D850) are the most common choices, normally with two cameras and a 24-70 & 70-200 f/2.8. Although there is one very long standing pro I know of who uses a Nikon 28-300! You have to work with available light and no flash, sometimes with the darker shows you see people with a f/1.4 prime but sometimes not. A couple use tripods but most not, you can't react quickly enough.

Most stand in the front few rows and respectably move about. A final dress having a photographer is standard practice and the cast will be used to it, they know the photos need taking so it's rare to see anyone stand in just one spot.

While photographers normally go to a rehearsal to get some rehearsal photos, I normally get the impression they don't know the show 100% as sometimes I see a nice photo opportunity in the tech rehearsal which then doesn't get take in the dress by the photographer. But equally the producer will probably give you a shot list or sometimes a couple have been taken at the end if they really need it.

Lighting wise, it's usual in a lot of cases for there to be a mix of colour temperatures - tungsten at 3000k or 3200k and then discharge lighting from the moving lights around 6000k. LED is obviously becoming more common, of which there are some horror stories but the really nice kit is actually very nice - flicker free and normally now more than 3x LEDs, the Lustr2s are 7 different colour LEDs in the engine to make a really good fine range of colours from the pastels to the saturated ones. Add into the mix some LED sources are of the warm variety and some of the cool.

Anyway hope this all helps!
 
Thanks for that
Yes I've already learned that the lighting setup can have a big effect on the photos
 
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