The War on Immigration

[sphexx]

Shipping people to Rwanda won’t work but it’ll be a nice little earner to replace PPE etc fiddles when they run out. Like the War on Drugs ™ it’ll probabably put up the prices that smugglers can charge.

Like “drugs” the Tories have no desire to solve the “problem” because it’s vote winner with unthinking people.

Unlike “drugs” I don’t know what the solution is though I agree that unrestricted migration is undesirable in the modern world and also that the asylum system is broken since nearly everybody has a “well founded fear of persecution” (exaggeration!).

I do think that part of the solution must be an identity card system and probably registration of places of residence and better regulation of employment — which would require well funded local government and civil service — all of which are anathema to the Tories There would have been no “Windrush Scandal“ if people had proper identity documents.

 

[bass_junkie83]

I think the first part of any "solution" has to be the government (and others) to stop using the terms immigration and asylum interchangeably. Though it suits them to do so and no change for good will come while this selection of asshats are running the country.

 

[sphexx]

I did think that when Boris listed all the cabinet Ministers who were descendant of immigrants it was rather a counter-argument

(I’m sure I’ve said before that I had an alien grandmother).

 

[Mr Bump]

I don't think its a bad solution to be honest and I am not ronny Racist.
These people have illegally worked there way all the way to our shores, knowing full well they have zero chance really of being accepted
and being given citizenshop, yeah pop em to Rwanda and then give them the chance to go back to there host countries.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

(I’m sure I’ve said before that I had an alien grandmother).

Go back far enough and we're all the descendants of immigrants.

Of course, some, like myself, don't need to go very far back!

 

[Norkie]

Interesting…

"Super Father" Genghis Khan has up to 16 million male descendants

 

[lindsay]

It appears to be an expensive trial run - apparently a maximum of 100 places in the Rwandan accommodation at any one time and 500 a year. We often receive more than that in the boats in a single day.

 

[Mr Bump]

It appears to be an expensive trial run - apparently a maximum of 100 places in the Rwandan accommodation at any one time and 500 a year. We often receive more than that in the boats in a single day.

yes but it more focused in single men which intelligence indicates move in to criminal activities in this country.

 

[lindsay]

Some do. Quite a few have mental health issues that receive treatment while detained here, not sure that would be the case in central Africa.

 

[sphexx]

It appears to be an expensive trial run - apparently a maximum of 100 places in the Rwandan accommodation at any one time and 500 a year. We often receive more than that in the boats in a single day.

I suspect it’s all to do with the local elections, which Tories have been billing as important to Boris’ survival, and it may vanish without trace afterwards — though not it’s authors sadly .

 

[Mr Bump]

I suspect it’s all to do with the local elections, which Tories have been billing as important to Boris’ survival, and it may vanish without trace afterwards — though not it’s authors sadly .

I don't think it is , i suspect it is a much more radical move to a harder line , which i suspect the majority of the country will support.
I think its fair to say we are sick to death of the rubber boat brigade and I for one do want to see a much harder line.

 

[woof woof]

I'm sure we'd all want to accomodate genuine refugees and I'm sure we'd all like to see sustainable immigration. Those things are all admirable but they have to be sustainable and at the moment many people would say that current immigration and asylum seeking isn't working and isn't sustainable.

I forget the exact figures for Middlesbrough so I wont even attempt to quote numbers but I do remember that the numbers are relatively high, I assume because it's relatively cheap to house people in Middlesbrough. That's all well and good but can public services cope? Some say not and that's when resentment can begin to appear. It's easy to dismiss peoples fears and concerns as racism but that would IMO be lazy and often just wrong.

I don't know what the solution is but can we go on as we are now? I don't think so. Not while so many people already in the UK are struggling in their every day lives including struggling to access services. If we try and just muddle on as we are I can imagine resentment growing and one perception seems to be that once people set foot in the UK it's difficult to impossible to refuse their applications and send them somewhere else. We don't even seem to be able to consistently and promptly deport serious foreign criminals.

While I'm here, just a little story that happened in Middlesbrough not long ago and I think it got some national coverage. The council painted asylum seekers doors blue thus making them easily identifiable and leaving them open to targeting. That all sound terrible but it's just possible that the council have to renovate a property before moving new tenants in and they used whatever colour for the front door that they had in stock.

 

[sphexx]

I don't think it is , i suspect it is a much more radical move to a harder line , which i suspect the majority of the country will support.
I think its fair to say we are sick to death of the rubber boat brigade and I for one do want to see a much harder line.

Not disagreeing but I think the timing is significant especially given it‘s not portrayed as finalised -- though nothing is with this lot.

 

[sphexx]

I'm sure we'd all want to accomodate genuine refugees and I'm sure we'd all like to see sustainable immigration. Those things are all admirable but they have to be sustainable and at the moment many people would say that current immigration and asylum seeking isn't working and isn't sustainable.

I forget the exact figures for Middlesbrough so I wont even attempt to quote numbers but I do remember that the numbers are relatively high, I assume because it's relatively cheap to house people in Middlesbrough. That's all well and good but can public services cope? Some say not and that's when resentment can begin to appear. It's easy to dismiss peoples fears and concerns as racism but that would IMO be lazy and often just wrong.

I don't know what the solution is but can we go on as we are now? I don't think so. Not while so many people already in the UK are struggling in their every day lives including struggling to access services. If we try and just muddle on as we are I can imagine resentment growing.

While I'm here, just a little story that happened in Middlesbrough not long ago and I think it got some national coverage. The council painted asylum seekers doors blue thus making them easily identifiable and leaving them open to targeting. That all sound terrible but it's just possible that the council have to renovate a property before moving new tenants in and they used whatever colour for the front door that they had in stock.

There’s been quite a lot of shunting people around into ‘cheaper’, generally poorer, places without regard to financial implications etc locally.

 

[woof woof]

There’s been quite a lot of shunting people around into ‘cheaper’, generally poorer, places without regard to financial implications etc locally.

One other thing that concerns me is that areas can become breeding grounds for misinformation leading to tensions.

For example a friend of Mrs WW lives in an area which is very largely Pakistani Muslim with very few people of any other ethnicity. Anyway, this friend was very angry and upset a while back as Priti Patel was about to pass a law making it possible to deport any immigrant no matter how long they've been here even if married to a UK national, as she is. The law was, we were told, being voted through parliament "today." I did tell her that this was utter b-locks and no law like that would ever get through a UK parliament but she was adamant and inconsolable. It all just made me wonder what dangerous rubbish is being spread in areas like this on a daily basis and how much fear and hatred it can generate.

 

[sphexx]

One other thing that concerns me is that areas can become breeding grounds for misinformation leading to tensions.

For example a friend of Mrs WW lives in an area which is very largely Pakistani Muslim with very few people of any other ethnicity. Anyway, this friend was very angry and upset a while back as Priti Patel was about to pass a law making it possible to deport any immigrant no matter how long they've been here even if married to a UK national, as she is. The law was, we were told, being voted through parliament "today." I did tell her that this was utter b-locks and no law like that would ever get through a UK parliament but she was adamant and inconsolable. It all just made me wonder what dangerous rubbish is being spread in areas like this on a daily basis and how much fear and hatred it can generate.

I’m out of touch on this but I don’t think marriage to a Briton guarantees right to reside any more -- I think there are cases of EU nationals being deported or at least unable to come post Brexit.

 

[Nod]

I don't think it is , i suspect it is a much more radical move to a harder line , which i suspect the majority of the country will support.
I think its fair to say we are sick to death of the rubber boat brigade and I for one do want to see a much harder line.

On all immigrants or just those trying to get here?

 

[sphexx]

I’m out of touch on this but I don’t think marriage to a Briton guarantees right to reside any more -- I think there are cases of EU nationals being deported or at least unable to come post Brexit.

Sorry but I think “rubber boat brigade” is not good terminology .

 

[woof woof]

I’m out of touch on this but I don’t think marriage to a Briton guarantees right to reside any more -- I think there are cases of EU nationals being deported or at least unable to come post Brexit.

I think the worry was that the Torees were going to deport people regardless of their immigration status. Total tosh of course but it seemed to spread like wildfire through the community.

But you're right, simply being married doesn't mean you get to stay in he UK. As you may know Mrs WW is an immigrant and it's a long and a tortuous and an expensive and a stressful process to go through. So far she's had a "Marriage Visa" 1st and 2nd Further Leave to Remain and her next will be Indefinite Leave to Remain. She's also needed to pass various tests (Life in the UK... I'd never pass this and it is IMO just... a bizarre thing and irrelevant to life in the UK) and get various English language certificates. If/when she gets her Indefinite Leave to Remain she'll go for Citizenship which I don't really understand as I thought we were subjects rather than citizens, but there you go

Fail at any hurdle and theoretically an immigrant could be deported but I personally have no first hand knowledge from my/our little circle of acquaintances and gossip merchants of anyone being deported. One story... one lady went back home for a holiday and when she returned her partner had moved another woman in and informed immigration that he wanted nothing to do with the Mrs any more. She was of course very upset and worried but immigration rallied round, gave her immediate Indefinite Leave to Remain and set her up in her own flat. Result.

 

[sphexx]

I think the worry was that the Torees were going to deport people regardless of their immigration status. Total tosh of course but it seemed to spread like wildfire through the community.

But you're right, simply being married doesn't mean you get to stay in he UK. As you may know Mrs WW is an immigrant and it's a long and a tortuous and an expensive and a stressful process to go through. So far she's had a "Marriage Visa" 1st and 2nd Further Leave to Remain and her next will be Indefinite Leave to Remain. She's also needed to pass various tests (Life in the UK... I'd never pass this and it is IMO just... a bizarre thing and irrelevant to life in the UK) and get various English language certificates. If/when she gets her Indefinite Leave to Remain she'll go for Citizenship which I don't really understand as I thought we were subjects rather than citizens, but there you go

Fail at any hurdle and theoretically an immigrant could be deported but I personally have no first hand knowledge from my/our little circle of acquaintances and gossip merchants of anyone being deported. One story... one lady went back home for a holiday and when she returned her partner had moved another woman in and informed immigration that he wanted nothing to do with the Mrs any more. She was of course very upset and worried but immigration rallied round, gave her immediate Indefinite Leave to Remain and set her up in her own flat. Result.

We used to be citizens (of the EU ) but we are back to being Subjects again.

Back in the 1960’s when I married an EU Citizen (ie pre U.K. EU membership) she had an automatic right to remain and choice to become naturalised Citizen Subject without any tests as far as I recall. Because my ex did a lot of travelling for work she took a U.K. passport really just to avoid the fairly unpleasant treatment in re-entry each time.

I spent a fair amount of time at Heathrow meeting people and don’t look particularly ‘foreign’ but an immigration officer once apologised to me for being rude explaining that he “thought I was American” … so you can imagine how non-Americans might be treated.

 

[Baloo]

No evidence ‘vast majority’ of people crossing Channel in small boats are economic migrants – Full Fact

Research indicates that the majority of people crossing the Channel go on to be granted asylum, but the full picture is not covered by official statistics.

fullfact.org

Just putting some facts into the debate.

 

[woof woof]

We used to be citizens (of the EU ) but we are back to being Subjects again.

Back in the 1960’s when I married an EU Citizen (ie pre U.K. EU membership) she had an automatic right to remain and choice to become naturalised Citizen Subject without any tests as far as I recall. Because my ex did a lot of travelling for work she took a U.K. passport really just to avoid the fairly unpleasant treatment in re-entry each time.

I spent a fair amount of time at Heathrow meeting people and don’t look particularly ‘foreign’ but an immigration officer once apologised to me for being rude explaining that he “thought I was American” … so you can imagine how non-Americans might be treated.

haha! Love it

Mrs WW has Chinese friends who came here from Italy, no hassle what so ever. But she and I have this long and expensive process to go through.

Yes, Mrs wants UK citizenship for less hassle when travelling. I don't think I could be mistaken for anything other than northern British but my Kazakh GF said I looked German.

 

[woof woof]

No evidence ‘vast majority’ of people crossing Channel in small boats are economic migrants – Full Fact

Research indicates that the majority of people crossing the Channel go on to be granted asylum, but the full picture is not covered by official statistics.

fullfact.org

Just putting some facts into the debate.

The refugee council are of course impartial and everything they say is to be taken as Gospel. Question them and be labelled a racist and cancelled.

"An asylum seeker is a person who claims to have left their country to seek protection from persecution and serious human rights violations, but hasn’t yet been recognised as a refugee."

Well yes. I could claim to be Shergar.

 

[Baloo]

The refugee council are of course impartial and everything they say is to be taken as Gospel. Question them and be labelled a racist and cancelled.

"An asylum seeker is a person who claims to have left their country to seek protection from persecution and serious human rights violations, but hasn’t yet been recognised as a refugee."

Well yes. I could claim to be Shergar.

DAMNING THE SOURCE: (ad hominem, sometimes called the genetic fallacy) attempts to refute an argument by indicting the source of the argument, rather than the substance of the argument itself.

Full Fact are an independent fact checking charity, they tell you exactly how the figures were calculated by The Refuge Council.

 

[woof woof]

DAMNING THE SOURCE: (ad hominem, sometimes called the genetic fallacy) attempts to refute an argument by indicting the source of the argument, rather than the substance of the argument itself.

Full Fact are an independent fact checking charity, they tell you exactly how the figures were calculated by The Refuge Council.

I was just asking the question.

These days you have to as far too many bodies which you'd think would be independent have vested interests and are far from objective. As for fact checkers...

And that article includes a definition which is based on self declaration as an asylum seeker. How anyone can take that unquestioningly and as a basis I just don't know or are we not allowed to ask any questions at all? In your defence, maybe you didn't read it?

 

[Baloo]

I was just asking the question.

These days you have to as far too many bodies which you'd think would be independent have vested interests and are far from objective. As for fact checkers...

And that article includes a definition which is based on self declaration as an asylum seeker. How anyone can take that unquestioningly and as a basis I just don't know or are we not allowed to ask any questions at all? In your defence, maybe you didn't read it?

Sorry which bit of this is a question, it looks like statements to me?

The refugee council are of course impartial and everything they say is to be taken as Gospel. Question them and be labelled a racist and cancelled.

"An asylum seeker is a person who claims to have left their country to seek protection from persecution and serious human rights violations, but hasn’t yet been recognised as a refugee."

Well yes. I could claim to be Shergar.

 

[lindsay]

Well, I have had my human rights taken away (through Brexit) and have been persecuted by HMRC with demands for tax that are not due under the law of the land (but demanded with menaces by the Behaviour Modification Unit), so I'd like to claim asylum in an EU country. But of course Gina Miller lost her case on EU citizenship being a human rights issue, so that's me f***ed.
But more seriously, the relatively small number coming to the UK (compared with the rest of Europe) do need to be examined for motive and connection to the country, and a proportion are economic refugees - but who wouldn't go to another country if they thought they could have a better life? I did it when I moved to Germany for a while, and plan to do so again. I do think it's very cruel though to move a bunch of people to a third country where they are likely to face even greater difficulties, with little compassionate support, instead of just deporting them to whence they came. I also think it's awful for the Royal Navy to have been tasked with heading off the rubber boats when there are more important things to do.

 

[woof woof]

Sorry which bit of this is a question, it looks like statements to me?

You appear to believe that everything must be taken as face value so I see no point in debating this any further with you.

But...

Regardless of what people are, the numbers are now questionable and possibly unsustainable unless something else happens.

 

[woof woof]

Well, I have had my human rights taken away (through Brexit) and have been persecuted by HMRC with demands for tax that are not due under the law of the land (but demanded with menaces by the Behaviour Modification Unit), so I'd like to claim asylum in an EU country. But of course Gina Miller lost her case on EU citizenship being a human rights issue, so that's me f***ed.
But more seriously, the relatively small number coming to the UK (compared with the rest of Europe) do need to be examined for motive and connection to the country, and a proportion are economic refugees - but who wouldn't go to another country if they thought they could have a better life? I did it when I moved to Germany for a while, and plan to do so again. I do think it's very cruel though to move a bunch of people to a third country where they are likely to face even greater difficulties, with little compassionate support, instead of just deporting them to whence they came. I also think it's awful for the Royal Navy to have been tasked with heading off the rubber boats when there are more important things to do.

We're had our rights increased and are now in greater control of our own country (through Brexit) and so can have a grown up debate and hopefully either welcome anyone we wish to into the country or deny entry should the need arise. That's a best case scenario.

I'd suggest you read "Despised" by Paul Embery. It's an easy read and could lead you to understand why your side lost the referendum, the attempt to stop democracy and the general election.

 

[Baloo]

You appear to believe that everything must be taken as face value so I see no point in debating this any further with you.

But...

Regardless of what people are, the numbers are now questionable and possibly unsustainable unless something else happens.

No, I read the methodology and understood how the figures were attained.

However, research carried out by the Refugee Council, covering the period between January 2020 and June 2021, found that for people, irrespective of arrival method, coming from the top 10 countries of origin arriving by small boat, 61% of initial asylum decisions would have resulted in refugee protection being granted. This compares to a grant rate of 52% on initial decisions for people across all nationalities.

The Refugee Council calculated these figures using quarterly statistics published by the Home Office, which detail initial decisions by nationality.

A spokesperson for the Refugee Council clarified: “As the vast majority of those making Channel crossings (91%) in that period [January 2020 and June 2021] came from those ten countries, the extrapolation is that those crossing the Channel are more likely to be granted asylum than the average across the whole system.”

Now you have resulted to AD HOM against me, sad you did not actually argue with the facts provided.

 

[Mr Bump]

On all immigrants or just those trying to get here?

illegal's

 

[Mr Bump]

Not disagreeing but I think the timing is significant especially given it‘s not portrayed as finalised -- though nothing is with this lot.

i think it has been brewing for a while and now we are entering spring summer which is rubber boat season it is now time to start the hard line game , lets be fair also many countries in Europe are entering a far right almost fascist regime now it is our time to also step up

 

[redsnappa]

Will the Government be sending white asylum seekers to Rwanda,? I doubt they would, could you imagine the uproar it would cause.

 

[sphexx]

Will the Government be sending white asylum seekers to Rwanda,? I doubt they would, could you imagine the uproar it would cause.

Define “white”.

I have no idea really, but I guess Rwanda might welcome non-African educated and English-speaking immigration. They appear to be quite technologically advanced, cheapest internet connections and Rwanda feature regularly on BBC Digital Planet program.

Not that I support HMG’s bonkers program which won’t work.

 

[tijuana taxi]

Define “white”.

I have no idea really, but I guess Rwanda might welcome non-African educated and English-speaking immigration. They appear to be quite technologically advanced, cheapest internet connections and Rwanda feature regularly on BBC Digital Planet program.

Not that I support HMG’s bonkers program which won’t work.

Not wasting anymore words than these on this ridiculous deflect attention away from the lying scumbag scheme.

 

[Baloo]

Define “white”.

I have no idea really, but I guess Rwanda might welcome non-African educated and English-speaking immigration. They appear to be quite technologically advanced, cheapest internet connections and Rwanda feature regularly on BBC Digital Planet program.

Not that I support HMG’s bonkers program which won’t work.

It is a brilliant move by BJ, he has triggered anyone left of Attila the Hun whilst this will go down brilliantly with his base. It is not actually legal as I understand it until he gets the new bill through parliament. But most importantly it is a great distraction from his lawbreaking and lies.

 

[redsnappa]

Define “white”.

Caucasian, Anglo Saxon, Slavic?

Maybe we should send Ukrainian asylum seekers to Rwanda. Less drain on our economy.

 

[Baloo]

Caucasian, Anglo Saxon, Slavic?

Most importantly anyone who does not look middle eastern!

 

[LCPete]

It is a brilliant move by BJ, he has triggered anyone left of Attila the Hun whilst this will go down brilliantly with his base. It is not actually legal as I understand it until he gets the new bill through parliament. But most importantly it is a great distraction from his lawbreaking and lies.

Yep that’s it exactly to deflect from his lies and lawbreaking, it’s never actually going to happen but they know that
I just hope that that British public remember when it comes to election time but I’m not holding much hope, a lot of silly buggers voted for him last time

 

[sphexx]

Caucasian, Anglo Saxon, Slavic?

Maybe we should send Ukrainian asylum seekers to Rwanda. Less drain on our economy.

Now there’s an idea, send all the Welsh & Cornish to Rwanda .