The right lens

Peter69

Peter69

Suspended / Banned
Messages
1,013
Name
Peter
Edit My Images
No
Ok, I guess this should be posted in equipment but as its a dedicated issue to bird photography I'll try here.

At present I have Sigma 70-200 2.8 OS. Sigma 150-500 OS & Sigma TCx2 on a D5100 (hopefully soon to be upgraded to D800).

The images I'm taking are very soft with a light halo around the image. I accept most of these are my errors i.e. to slow shutter, badly focused (manual) or wrong exposure but I was wondering if these lenses are good enough. Pictures I'm trying to get are birds on the wing like buzzards, kites and hawks.

I'm not loaded so budget is a big issue and I can't get closer unless someone knows how to tempt them closer (if that's legal).

I see images on here and they are stunning.
 
Firstly, you could do with posting some of your shots to let us see the exact problems. Quite possibly there might be some suggestions put forward to save you a few quid!

Both the sigma lenses are capable of producing the goods, but if you're putting a 2x converter on the 150-500mm then you're going to take a big hit in quality and lose your AF. Much better to find a way to get closer.

I've never used the D5100 so can't comment on its features specifically, but I do know the sensor is capable of good results. I'd definitely hold off buying the D800 for now until you sort out the issues you're having with your current gear
 
Zooms are not good with TC's

you can never have too much "range" when taking bird shots

If you a Nikon user
a good used Nikon AF-S 300mm f4 is the next step up from a zoom - IQ at f4 on this lens is very good
Good tripod and head
then add a Nikon TC x 1.4

then it gets quite and very expensive

D5100 is DX so you get x 1.5 in camera "crop" v Full Frame - D800 is FX ..... both have mega mega pixel sensors

For small and (bigger) birds keep to DX - i.e. D7100, (which has a further x 1.3 in camera "crop" as well as the normal x 1.5 DX crop") - so with D7100 DX in crop mode plus a 300mm f4 and x 1.4TC you get 820mm at f5.6

Some may recommend the V1 + FT-1 route, but it has never really worked for me

IMHO, of course
 
Last edited:
HAs posting pictures changed? I can get the flickr link on here?
 
Peter, the main issue here is you are far too far away from your subjects. Unfortunately, no equipment change is going to give you high quality over these kind of distances.

The good news is you appear to have found locations where some impressive birds like to frequent, so the trick now is to observe, see if they use regular patterns in flight, and find a way of getting closer.

Try doing some research on local areas and try to make some useful contacts with other locals who are often a good source of knowledge.

In the meantime, try photographing less difficult subjects - waterfowl and woodland birds etc to practice your photography skills on so you are better prepared for when you get the opportunity with the kestrals and their like
 
The Hawk was probably shot at 20-30m
The Buzzard at about 120m and the one with a bit of tree about 50m.
Without being able to fly I can't get closer when they are like this.
 
BillN_33 said:
a good used Nikon AF-S 300mm f4 is the next step up from a zoom - IQ at f4 on this lens is very good
Good tripod and head
then add a Nikon TC x 1.4
Click to expand...
It looks like the 300 goes for about £300 on ebay (£998 new)
Nikon 1.4 about £230 ebay (£310 new).
That's £550(£1318) for a 420 f4 lens (about T6 based on DXO).


BillN_33 said:
For small and (bigger) birds keep to DX - i.e. D7100, (which has a further x 1.3 in camera "crop" as well as the normal x 1.5 DX crop") - so with D7100 DX in crop mode plus a 300mm f4 and x 1.4TC you get 820mm at f5.6
Click to expand...
I hear what you're saying about the DX but as the 800 is a squillion pixel camera even in DX mode you get 15.3MP images.
 
Peter69 said:
It looks like the 300 goes for about £300 on ebay (£998 new)
Nikon 1.4 about £230 ebay (£310 new).
That's £550(£1318) for a 420 f4 lens (about T6 based on DXO).



I hear what you're saying about the DX but as the 800 is a squillion pixel camera even in DX mode you get 15.3MP images.
Click to expand...

The 300mm f4 with the x1.4TC brings it down to f5.6
I would be surprised if you can get a Nikon AF-S 300 f4 for £300, I would say double that for a good one
You should get a 1.4TC for under £200

a used D7000 is a good buy - there maybe some new ones still around

a used low clicks D300 is also good but is 15 mega pxl - In many ways, I still prefer the D300 over the D7100 some of the time.

These "cheaper" Nikon 24 meg bodies D5200 etc., do not have as good a user interface, IMHO

The D800 will have a really good interface, the D300 is very good and the D7100 not bad, again IMHO

A good tripod is really worth buying for bird shots, the Nikon AFS 300mm f4 is NON VR

The new D610 is cheaper than the D800 but supposed to be nearly as good
The D600 had a poor reputation re dirty sensors and I think Nikon have agreed to clean all sensors FOC, as they have been threatened with legal action in the States.

If you buy used from a reputable member of a photo forum you should get genuine equipment at a reasonable price

Good luck
 
Peter69 said:
It looks like the 300 goes for about £300 on ebay (£998 new)
Nikon 1.4 about £230 ebay (£310 new).
That's £550(£1318) for a 420 f4 lens (about T6 based on DXO).
Click to expand...

The DX sensor D7100 has an additional x 1.3 "crop" mode within the camera

I would be surprised if the Sigma 150 to 500mm zoom focuses at all with a x2 TC ....... if it does it must be very very slow.
The Sigma has a good repution
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the feed back. I believe my D5100 has the same sensor as the D7000 but you are right about the interface although I've got mine setup just about how I want it.

I thought I had said but I must have refreshed before I actually posted but I'm being gifted the D800. If this wasn't the case I would probably go for a D7100 or D600 2nd hand.

When taking trying to shoot birds is it wise to set camera up in A mode (f8) with auto iso set for minimum shutter speed of, say, 1/250? This way you keep your dof constant and make sure the shutter is quick enough to stop blur. obviously this can lead to noise/ de-saturated pictures .
 
I use spot focus, spot exposure most of the time using the Aperture priority setting
with the 300mm f4 it is such a good lens wide open that I set it to f4 or f5.6 most of the time

Mess around with auto ISO depending on the light, but I try to keep it below ISO 800, or ISO 400 and below, if you can shot at ISO 200 that's good as you will be "cropping" the final image 99.9% of the time

I put my small bird settings into one of the custom menus, (U2 on the D7100)

I usually have the continuous shot low set up or high when I am shoot BIF

Also AF S or AF C depending on the situation

trweak the + or - stops 0.7 and sometimes maybe 1.0 depending on the colour of the bird/ light on the bird

Always try to shoot with your exposure "to the right" as you can always pull it back in PP

Focus on the eye if you can and lock the focus with the lock button if you want to reframe.

experiment, experiment

correct (good) light is the most important element - harsh sunlight is terrible and try to get the right position so that the light is on the bird

early mooring or late afternoon light as good plus that is when birds are at their most active

Bonne chance
 
That's great Bill.

I will seek out a f4 300 to try out
 
I'm not sure if this helps but I wrote about how I managed to get some black kite images in Spain on my website here. These black kite images were taken with a d7000 and 300 f4 AF-S without a teleconverter.

I would suggest a shutter speed of about 1/1000 sec and an aperture of f8 as a starting point. I use manual with auto ISO and either change shutter speed or aperture to raise/lower the ISO depending on light levels.

I too would be surprised if you find a 300mm f4 AF-S lens for £300, the going rate is about £600-700 depending on condition. It's a great lens and I wouldn't be surprised if the 300 f4 AF-S used prices rise if nikon ever replaces it with a vr model, a new vr model will likely be near to the new 80-400 price (£1800-1900) rather than £1000 new as it is now. I've used a 300 f4 for the last two years and it's a great lens, especially with the 1.4tc. It's a light weight combination that's easy to carry. The d800 needs good lenses to get the best out of it. A friend of mine used it with the 300 f4 and got good results. From what I've been told the d8000 is a beast to tame and needs good technique to get the best out of it.
 
Regarding getting closer you need to find some where they come closer to. There are a few places around the uk that are well known as good locations (gigrin farm for red kites, bempton for gannets, there are plenty of others too), this will give you the best chance to get close enough to get good detail. Even a d800 and the best lens won't give brilliant images if the birds are too far away. This was my main learning point from last year, getting close gives the detailed images.

Where abouts are you in the uk?
 
Last edited:
Thanks Rob.

I'm in Woking Surrey. The pictures were taken very local to me which is a surprise given that the buzzard is on an amber alert and we a really built up here.

With garden birds I have encouraged them with food. With these types of bird its much harder to get them to fly lower. I prefer them actually in the air. I'm of to Wales this weekend for a Barbie car race & rally so might find some time to nip to the reservoirs in the Breacons where I know you can get close to them in the air because of the steep sloops and thermals.

On the D5100 I know I can't use manual as auto ISO doesn't function. Using the 150-500 @500 (which I think is T8 @ F6.5) means I can set my camera at f8 with auto ISO set to minimum shutter speed (I choose 1/320) as it quite hard to find the light. At present I use matrix metering @+2ev but I'm going to try spot like Bill said above. Images are ok up to 800ISO but noise becomes a problem above this.

Great informative page on the Kites
 
Last edited:
Peter69 said:
Worth a punt?
http://r.ebay.com/k2VN03
Click to expand...
That won't auto focus on your D5100 as you don't have a built in focus motor.

Peter69 said:
I'm in Woking Surrey. The pictures were taken very local to me which is a surprise given that the buzzard is on an amber alert and we a really built up here.

With garden birds I have encouraged them with food. With these types of bird its much harder to get them to fly lower. I prefer them actually in the air. I'm of to Wales this weekend for a Barbie car race & rally so might find some time to nip to the reservoirs in the Breacons where I know you can get close to them in the air because of the steep sloops and thermals.

On the D5100 I know I can't use manual as auto ISO doesn't function. Using the 150-500 @500 (which I think is T8 @ F6.5) means I can set my camera at f8 with auto ISO set to minimum shutter speed (I choose 1/320) as it quite hard to find the light. At present I use matrix metering @+2ev but I'm going to try spot like Bill said above. Images are ok up to 800ISO but noise becomes a problem above this.

Great informative page on the Kites
Click to expand...

I live near Woking and last summer saw Buzzards fairly often. There's plent about if you know where to look from deer, to kestrel to various owls.

I would say your lens is fine, I've seen plenty good images come out of a 150-500. I would say you need to get closer, and work out your metering and what's best for you. For many (including me) this is manual so I don't have to ride the exposure comp. I recommend listening to this podcast which goes over manual metering and I found it quite useful. http://www.martinbaileyphotography.com/2013/10/21/metering-in-manual-exposure-mode-podcast-392/ That said I do use aperture priority a lot too. Just not when the background is changing a lot or when the light level is reasonably stable.

You should be good to about ISO 1600 with the 5100 which is the same sensor as my D7000 but it falls apart pretty fast after that, hence my recent purchase of a D700.
 
Winkyphoto said:
Some pretty nasty artefacts from too much jpeg compression or oversharpening, or both. Check your camera is saving the largest, best quality image it can.
Click to expand...

I'm surprised they came out this well, the birds were massively underexposed. They are super enhanced, super sharpened and extreme cropped. I actually think the jpeg might of improved them they were that bad :)



My trip to Wales to grab some shots didn't workout as planned but that's why we have the NHS :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top