The Iran Sailors....

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15 sailors captured for straying into Iranian waters...

14 men, 1 woman...

Doesn't take a genius to work out who was reading the map, does it!!! :D ;)
 
LOL Dod's in for some grief though :lol: :lol:
 
... OUCH ...
:lol:
 
It was the officer...

We're all still wondering why they didn't use their weapons to defend themselves... ho-hum...
Almost another Gulf of Tonkin incident...
 
dod said:
15 sailors captured for straying into Iranian waters...

14 men, 1 woman...

Doesn't take a genius to work out who was reading the map, does it!!! :D ;)
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Hi Kerumba, Dod! Have you got a death wish at the hands of a woman? :eek:
 
Jeez people must have spent a fortune texting this joke to me. :bang:
 
Arkady, do you guys not have a "code of conduct" in the Army is we said anything on film or anywhere other than our name, dob or Social Security number you can be court martialled. And these guys weren't even being beaten by the looks of it.... What's up?

And they weren't in Iranian waters so noone was lost but the iranians!
 
Yeah, a bit curious how come the 15 were so vocal about their opinions on camera.

Glad they're back, but hope they now realise they've been made to fly the Iranian propaganda when they were airing their views.
 
kamion said:
Yeah, a bit curious how come the 15 were so vocal about their opinions on camera.

Glad they're back, but hope they now realise they've been made to fly the Iranian propaganda when they were airing their views.
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I'm sure they know that already - lets face it though: we in the west will believe either what we are spoon fed by the government and media or what we suspect may be the actual case. The Iranians and Muslims will either believe what they are told or what they suspect to be the truth.

Either way, we have 14 men and a woman illegally imprisoned and threatened with God knows what if they didn't do as they were bidden by their captors.

Before we get on our high horse about illegal imprisonment lets not forget Guantanamo Bay or our own "anti-terror" propaganda. Mushrooms aint the half of it!!
 
I agree with you johnny but I know in my time in the military we were given very specific training as to what you could or couldn't say and I just wonder what if any the brits get and if those comments are a punishable offense like they would be under the UCMJ (uniform code of military justice) in America. Because while I feel for them it is a factor of the job and we are paid to take those risks as crappy as that might be.
 
h.r.ford said:
I agree with you johnny but I know in my time in the military we were given very specific training as to what you could or couldn't say and I just wonder what if any the brits get and if those comments are a punishable offense like they would be under the UCMJ (uniform code of military justice) in America. Because while I feel for them it is a factor of the job and we are paid to take those risks as crappy as that might be.
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I don't disagree with you at all there - you take your money and take your chances. BUT, regardless of code and ethics, everyone has a breaking point (i'd have reached mine just after sobering up and finding I'd enlisted) and they didn't, as far as we know, release any sensitive information. Why take a beating before you say what you've been told to say in front of a camera? Just out of interest H.R, weren't the rules repealed after that fighter pilot was paraded on TV having taking a kicking (cant remember if that was Iran, Iraq, or someother country our collective governments have tried to exploit or dictate 'civilized society' terms to in the last 50 years)?
 
Nope the code of conduct is pretty clear on what can be said and basically you should limit yourself to the three things I said above as it gives them little information to grab hold of. My husband is JAG (the law part of the Army) now and I used to be JAG and one of his jobs is teaching code of conduct. While in honesty they probably wouldn't be court martialed they'd at least get a letter of reprimand which means promotion is a no no. In the Army you don't get to say things against your country in the press, under durress or anywhere public even if being beaten. I think the person you are talking about was in Somalia, the whole blackhawk down incident.
 
To be honest, their actions are not really helpful since they accused the British government of "sacrificing" them, and saying that they were in the wrong, etc. How the hell are the negotiators going to argue that they were taken from Iraqi waters if the group "admitted" they were in Iranian waters? If matters deteriorated, they would have already "incriminated" themselves by their admission and be found guilty by Iranian courts if they were charged.
 
h.r.ford said:
Nope the code of conduct is pretty clear on what can be said and basically you should limit yourself to the three things I said above as it gives them little information to grab hold of. My husband is JAG (the law part of the Army) now and I used to be JAG and one of his jobs is teaching code of conduct. While in honesty they probably wouldn't be court martialed they'd at least get a letter of reprimand which means promotion is a no no. In the Army you don't get to say things against your country in the press, under durress or anywhere public even if being beaten. I think the person you are talking about was in Somalia, the whole blackhawk down incident.
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No - this guy was fully mobile, just badly beaten. I'm fairly sure it was 1st Gulf War. Michael Durant had a badly broken leg so wasn't him.

I've got to say, it's utter, utter madness to have a code of conduct that says you have to resist ultimately, torture, to avoid besmirching a country's name. How on earth can you possibly train someone in that respect?
 
kamion said:
To be honest, their actions are not really helpful since they accused the British government of "sacrificing" them, and saying that they were in the wrong, etc. How the hell are the negotiators going to argue that they were taken from Iraqi waters if the group "admitted" they were in Iranian waters? If matters deteriorated, they would have already "incriminated" themselves by their admission and be found guilty by Iranian courts if they were charged.
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You've got a gun to your head mate - what would you say?

The whole incident was political manouevering. No-one cares except for a small but dangerous minority of militants and those brainwashed by the wests propaganda
 
It is ultimately up to you whether you chose to be shot or give up your country but it is in the code. I mean soldiers in Vietnam put up with amazing torcher and weren't on TV bad mouthing. Their behavior really put the UK in a bad place because it is hard to stand your ground and say NO we weren't in your waters when the 15 people they have are going we're wrong we're sorry the UK sucks. Ultimiately you are willing to give your life for the military that is what you say when you sign on the dotted line. I'm no Queen and country sort of person and I can't stand George Bush but when I was in the Army he was my Commander in Chief and therefore gun to my head or not American policy was my policy even though I hate so much of it (Guantanamo bay as you so rightly pointed out is a joke). It is not a normal job it is a life commitment and even sometimes and end of life commitment.
 
h.r.ford said:
It is ultimately up to you whether you chose to be shot or give up your country but it is in the code. I mean soldiers in Vietnam put up with amazing torcher and weren't on TV bad mouthing. Their behavior really put the UK in a bad place because it is hard to stand your ground and say NO we weren't in your waters when the 15 people they have are going we're wrong we're sorry the UK sucks. Ultimiately you are willing to give your life for the military that is what you say when you sign on the dotted line. I'm no Queen and country sort of person and I can't stand George Bush but when I was in the Army he was my Commander in Chief and therefore gun to my head or not American policy was my policy even though I hate so much of it (Guantanamo bay as you so rightly pointed out is a joke). It is not a normal job it is a life commitment and even sometimes and end of life commitment.
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I applaud your sentiment but can only be tested in the field once captured and tortured. Arkady hit the nail on the head earlier - why didn't they resist arrest given there were 15 of them, all fully armed??

Minor point re Vietnam - there are archives of prisoners in Hanoi appearing in films (albeit silent) with placards around their necks declaiming their country and the war. i think the locations of the prison camps and the lack of technology is more relevant than the adherance to any code.
 
Jonnyreb said:
You've got a gun to your head mate - what would you say?

The whole incident was political manouevering. No-one cares except for a small but dangerous minority of militants and those brainwashed by the wests propaganda
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:shrug: I dare ya?

:lol:
 
Jonnyreb said:
why didn't they resist arrest given there were 15 of them, all fully armed??
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I thought that was because they were in a wee rubber boat and got surrounded by four or five (or whatever number it was) heavily armed gun boats?? In other words they hadn't a hope of defending themselves realistically so surrender was the most sensible option.

Haven't read much about it to be honest though so could easily be wrong on that.
 
dod said:
I thought that was because they were in a wee rubber boat and got surrounded by four or five (or whatever number it was) heavily armed gun boats?? In other words they hadn't a hope of defending themselves realistically so surrender was the most sensible option.

Haven't read much about it to be honest though so could easily be wrong on that.
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Ahhh - i spose thats a reasonable excuse. Arkady would have beaten them to a pulp with his Nikon.

Which is probably the best use of one :D
 
I do agree that no one knows how you will react till you are there. But I do think training comes in. If you have been properly brain washed by the military you should be less likely to allow yourself to be used by the capturing force. So I really just would like to know how the British military does or in this case doesn't do it? Everyone has a breaking point my point it there's seemed to be awful low and counterproductive as it could have meant the death sentence if taken to trial in Iran.
 
h.r.ford said:
I do agree that no one knows how you will react till you are there. But I do think training comes in. If you have been properly brain washed by the military you should be less likely to allow yourself to be used by the capturing force. So I really just would like to know how the British military does or in this case doesn't do it? Everyone has a breaking point my point it there's seemed to be awful low and counterproductive as it could have meant the death sentence if taken to trial in Iran.
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There's only one man that can answer that question - if he's allowed to.

From what i can gather the guide is to resist for as long as possible. but its a guide. We dont know what they were threatened with but i struggle to belive that Marines would have folded without reason. I know a few and they take beatings for bucks.

Dont forget though, Renee, that this would never have gone to trial. these guys were pawns, but the game was more like tiddly winks than chess. If that doesn't completely mangle my metaphor ;)
 
All the more reason to keep your mouth shut! It is awful that they were put in this position and as you rightly said Iran isn't the only one blowing smoke out their A$&!
 
Jonnyreb said:
Dont forget though, Renee, that this would never have gone to trial. these guys were pawns, but the game was more like tiddly winks than chess. If that doesn't completely mangle my metaphor ;)
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Exactly, they should have realised that Iran wouldn't have dared to provoke the UK (and the international community) by killing them, unless Iran wants war. In which case, they would not be released anyway. So why grovel, act badly and put the UK armed forces to shame? They were in a situation beyond them and they will not have information (except misinformation from their captors) from the outside world. The best policy would have been to keep quiet because they don't know what consequences their actions would have. Admitting to being in Iranian waters is the worst possible thing they could have done to themselves, because that just gives the Iranians more credibility to hold on to them. I would have not admitted wrong doing of any kind, unless they started peeling the flesh off my dick. Then it's a different ball game. :nuts:
 
As others have said, you can never know how you will react till the situation arises. I did think that those speaking in the broadcasts were trying to sound stilted and odd, add to that that the broadcasts were heavily edited and who knows but them what really went on.
 
The big six as they were known went out years ago, name, rank, number, religion, DOB and nationality. It was part of the geneva code that said you could only ask and nswer those questions. Thing is the geneva code only applies to wartime situations and for one we're not at war with Iran and two nobody pays any attention to the geneva code anyway.

My training for the big six consist of a brief lasting about an hour. it's not like you're trained to resist torture is it? Now it's about keeping yourself alive but giving away as little as possible until you know that your own side know what is happening and can react accordingly. From all the news coverage I saw you never heard what they were saying anyway only what was translated into iranian and the back to english. Load of crap. As for them not being in Iranian waters, do you actually still believe stuff this government tell you?

Personally I think they did the right thing by not fighting back. They weren't being fired upon so if they opened fire first it would have caused an international situation this country can't afford. That and the fact they were massively outgunned and would have been blown out of the water, potentially over nothing. I'm glad they all live to fight another day.
 
Nope don't for a minute believe our gov't but the original coordinates that Iran gave were in Iraqi waters also so I find it easier to believe the brits, americans and Iraqis over them. I agree that fighting back would have been idiotic and I'm not sure I believe that girl wrote those letters. Valid point about the translation!

And whether it is fair or not we are still held to not making statements while being held captive. We aren't taught like the SAS or Rangers about resisting torture but we are given guidelines to help us.
 
h.r.ford said:
Nope don't for a minute believe our gov't but the original coordinates that Iran gave were in Iraqi waters also so I find it easier to believe the brits, americans and Iraqis over them. I agree that fighting back would have been idiotic and I'm not sure I believe that girl wrote those letters. Valid point about the translation!

And whether it is fair or not we are still held to not making statements while being held captive. We aren't taught like the SAS or Rangers about resisting torture but we are given guidelines to help us.
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Do you know what they were told? What if they were told the Government needed some answer before they were released and telling them they were just inside the Iran waters was just the formality that would seal the release.
being tortured and not saying anything is one thing. These guys were treated really well and friendly. And were probably told things for them to say certain non military information. Dont spose they spelled out the UK's sectrets to be fair.
 
It's different depending on your Branch of Service - Kev's RAF, so wouldn't be expected to have to endure days of torture (days of Death By PowerPoint, maybe).

The Booties (Royal Marines) would have had a more dedicated brief, but even that would just be part of the basic OPTAG packages run by the Army at Shorncliffe/Lydd and by the RN at Portsmouth. If you're going to do 'extra-curricular' work then you can do the 'Resistance to Interrogation' course, all of which is restricted, so I'll gloss over the details. Suffice to say, you get beaten up a bit, so you know where your own personal limits are.

AFAIK, all I'm required to give up, info-wise is Name, Rank, Service Number and D.O.B.
Anything else is outside of my purview - i.e. why we're there, what our mission is, what do I think of Tony Blair etc.
I'm required to give as little information up as possible for at least 24 hours, after which any sensitive information I may be in possession of will have been negated.
After 48 hours, I can make up anything I like.
I always tell people I'm a Dolphin Trainer.

Seriously, no-one expects a Leading-Hand in the RN to know anything of value to the enemy. You will note that the officer in command of the group, a Captain, RN wasn't on camera until the very end of this episode. Some of the lads on camera were plainly taking the p*** out of their captors, lounging around and eating bananas.
Writing letters denouncing the Government? No - that's a Flogging Offence, Hookie and she should be ashamed of herself. But what else can you expect from the Senior Service? Tough for her, being a young Mum and all, but that's why women shouln't be in the Front Line. Sorry, anachronistic, mysoginistic, call it what you will - they don't belong. War is a Man's thing - it's brutish, nasty and bloody and I for one don't want women exposed to all if that.
I like girls and I don't like seeing them torn to pieces by shrapnel, thanks very much.

In conclusion, I still can't figure out why they didn't put up a bit of a scrap - RIBs are pretty fast and unless the boat was diffy, they shouldn't have been manouvered into a position whereby they were surrounded by Iranian gunboats - bad drills, if nothing else. The decision to capitulate would have been taken by the officer in command and he'll be getting de-briefed on all of that right now.
Remember, Royal's rule of thumb is: if in doubt, Brass it Up! (Brass-Up - to shoot - from the brass cartridge cases left over) So I don't imagine it was a case of Yellow Spine-Fever on their part.
We may never know the full story and speculation, even within the Military community will be rife.
 
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