The Bleak future for British motor industry innovation

Maybe the patriotic feelings are about the people who live in their country having a job,
I'm all for everyone having a job if they want one but that implies that we need a bigger cake and everyone needs to get more or less the same sized slice.

This is where our greed obsessed businessmen and politicians need a morality transplant, which is best implemented via a simpler and fairer income tax system. As we're no longer in the EU, one thing we could put back is exchange controls: a system where the rich can get out if they want but their wealth stays here.
 
I’ve been picking up my new EV (Expedition Vehicle). You like it?

It has a big dirty diesel engine.

View attachment 444685


Like for like (comparing the 2 litre Ingenium engine fitted to JLR cars), the worst Diesel produces less CO2 than the best of the petrol variants.
 
All of these type of threads are the same blighted by E.V driving middle class people who will push their own agenda just because they have been sucked into paying £600 a month for a big battery on wheels.
 
I didn't think the Ingenium engines lasted long enough to produce that much CO2 :ROFLMAO:


Didn't like either version when I test drove them. 3l Diesel V6 for the win!!!
 
Didn't like either version when I test drove them. 3l Diesel V6 for the win!!!
I had a discovery in the late 90’s in SA. It had a Rover 4L V8 petrol engine and proper gears and levers for low / high range.p (non of this over price, overly complex computer rubbish). I did some proper off roading in that and it never skipped a beat.
 
I think you killed the conversation in this thread off with this one..... :tumbleweed: :ROFLMAO:

The way I see it is it's never a "conversation". These threads attract the same old hypocrites calling everybody else names and telling them how to live while doing the complete opposite themselves.

I only come here to wind them up. They're not interested in other peoples point of view so it's useless conversing with them.
 
...someone has to actually make things, that fact is so obvious that even Trump has noticed:)
There is a very old parable about the two villages that often disagreed but never went to war.

When a traveller heard about this he asked the villagers why this was so. "They make the spear heads and we make the spear shafts." Came the reply. To put it bluntly, it's better to trade with others than to fight them.

As for jobs, economists have warned for decades that increasing industrialisation starts out by creating many jobs but inevitably, carries on by reducing jobs, sometimes gradually and sometimes rapidly. All the early industrial countries have the same problem, although politicians do their best to fudge the figures. Officially, Britain has 1.5 million unemployed but in truth, there are 11 million "economically inactive" citizens...


Both these numbers will continue to increase, especially once technologies like "3D printing" become more versatile and less expensive. Patriotism has nothing to do with this, it's a world wide phenomenon that is going to harm the weaker members of every society unless we actually remember that there are ways of spreading the wealth, which don't depend on letting the devil take the hindmost.
 
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With a national grid doing tv adverts warning people about being prepared for power cuts, I'm not sure electric is the way forward.
From a logical point of view it would seem to me, having enough electric reserve and infrastructor BEFORE going electric cars would be common sense... Mind, thats probably why I'm not a politician....
 
My runabout is a 12 year old diesel engined Sportage! It does 55mpg (60 on a run) as this OAP can reach all the speed limits by running the engine up to a 2000 rpm ceiling, through the gears (sometimes skipping some, if the inclines suit). I rarely hold anyone up, apart from the reps in their Audis or Beemers that seem to have a need for pedal to the metal always! I took it to the agents for a recall and looked at the leccy stuff whilst I was there. Nah! Everything done on sensors with driver "assists and aids" that I definitely don't want. After a brief chat with the sales person, they told me (off the record) to avoid them like the plague, as I would not be happy with one, as most of the OAP's spending their kids inheritance, were swapping them back very quickly, for used ICE vehicles!!! The "technician" that carried out the recall work said that my old motor was spot on and very well preserved, for an old car!!!
 
Yes, people have strong and entrenched opinions about real cars ICE cars v electric, and just about every thread seems even vaguely connected to cars seems to go the same sad way:(

But nothing is really logical about cars is it?
One of my neighbours has this old Merc and he's selling it.
slk.jpg
Full leather interior, auto, supercharged, causes back pain if loud pedal is pressed too hard, almost no ground clearance at all, so won't take me up the unmade tracks to the shooting clubs I go to, and probably not to our farm, it only has 2 doors and can only carry one passenger, there's zero boot space when the hard top is down, not that we often get the opportunity to increase the headroom to 93 million miles in this country, it probably auto-steers into every petrol station, and if I check the insurance I'll probably find yet another reason not to buy it.

It's totally impracticable for me, it would end up as a second car that hardly ever gets driven . . .

But for some reason I keep thinking about it:)
 
Yes, people have strong and entrenched opinions about real cars ICE cars v electric, and just about every thread seems even vaguely connected to cars seems to go the same sad way:(

But nothing is really logical about cars is it?
One of my neighbours has this old Merc and he's selling it.
View attachment 445150
Full leather interior, auto, supercharged, causes back pain if loud pedal is pressed too hard, almost no ground clearance at all, so won't take me up the unmade tracks to the shooting clubs I go to, and probably not to our farm, it only has 2 doors and can only carry one passenger, there's zero boot space when the hard top is down, not that we often get the opportunity to increase the headroom to 93 million miles in this country, it probably auto-steers into every petrol station, and if I check the insurance I'll probably find yet another reason not to buy it.

It's totally impracticable for me, it would end up as a second car that hardly ever gets driven . . .

But for some reason I keep thinking about it:)

Have you bought it yet? :) :ROFLMAO:
 
All of these type of threads are the same blighted by E.V driving middle class people who will push their own agenda just because they have been sucked into paying £600 a month for a big battery on wheels.

As I have said on many places... as a self described middle class person... I used to have a Kia Sportage on PCP. Tesla M3 was around 130 a month more on PCP, but with the fuel savings, service savings I now have a 430hp car. Also, the new Sportage was actually 20 a month more than this! There is no way I could have got an ICE with same performance at the same all in cost (although insurance is expensive).
 
With a national grid doing tv adverts warning people about being prepared for power cuts, I'm not sure electric is the way forward.
From a logical point of view it would seem to me, having enough electric reserve and infrastructor BEFORE going electric cars would be common sense... Mind, thats probably why I'm not a politician....
The way you charge generally, is little and often. So unless I am planning a trip to Newcastle tomorrow, a 24 hour or even a 72 hour power cut makes no odds to me 99% of the time
 
Have you bought it yet? :) :ROFLMAO:

If you haven't, I really wouldn't. They were quite nice when new but older examples are now getting expensive and troublesome. Roof problems, fuse boxes rotting out, rusting subframes. IF you can afford to treat it as a disposable fun car, it might be worth a punt but it would have to be VERY cheap.
 
As I have said on many places... as a self described middle class person... I used to have a Kia Sportage on PCP. Tesla M3 was around 130 a month more on PCP, but with the fuel savings, service savings I now have a 430hp car. Also, the new Sportage was actually 20 a month more than this! There is no way I could have got an ICE with same performance at the same all in cost (although insurance is expensive).
You don't though, you now have a soulless 430bhp battery on ugly wheels.

Not wanting to derail the thread and maybe it comes from being working class but I have never understood the attraction of renting a car on pcp agreements etc. Paying out hundreds of pounds per month so you can keep up with the Jones next door has never appealed to me. Yes, car's depreciate etc. but renting a car unless it's for tax reasons for business is something I would never consider and struggle to wrap my head around.

Possibly my parents influence but if I can't afford to buy something, I just do without. Car's are my main hobby and something I am interested in. I have a fairly decent performing car that is currently after some modifications sitting at just over 400 bhp but I own it outright, even though I absolutely love the car if the options were getting into debt or renting to have it, I would just get a cheaper car that I could buy. Yes, it meant that I have to save to afford it but I am okay with that.

I guess people are just happy to live in debt. Having discussed this with people before there answer was that it allows them to have a a new car all the time that is under warranty because they are concerned about maintenance costs. I have a friend that is playing keeping up with the Jones, he always finances his cars and changes them every 3 years. He has a high performance car that he pays about £800 odd a month for that he got around the same time I changed my car and has payed a fortune in maintenance costs since purchase. My car has cost me about £400 a year in maintenance costs. Because I am not paying £800 a month on a car and I am not averaging about £3k a year in maintenance costs I have substantially more available income than he does although we both have a similar income. Every time I have discussed this it always boils down to the same thing those that drive cars that are beyond their means to buy, do so because they want to keep up "their lifestyle". I don't even have a credit card any more it seemed pointless using it and then paying it off every month when I could just use my debit card. My friend will never own a car, his car rental costs mean that he will never be able to save enough money to buy one.

I get that E.V's have perceived lower maintenance costs when you are just renting and changing every 3 years, long term though their maintenance costs are much higher than a car, depreciation is much higher than a car. That might appeal to someone that doesn't have any interest in cars and only wants something to get from A to B. Let's be honest though it's not about that or else everybody and their granny wouldn't have a Tesla, they would be driving about in an E.V Renault etc. E.V's are the new Vegans, look at me I can rent a battery owned by Elon Musk, I am saving the environment. :ROFLMAO: They then ignore anything negative about E.V's including the massive impact on the environment because of production and powering their E.V, the lack of infrastructure, the impact on the economy with the massive amount of skilled and unskilled job's that will be lost when real car's are completely phased out, the child labour involved in the production of E.V batteries and feeding the Chinese economy, the list goes on. The negatives of E.V's far and away out strip the negatives of car's. They don't want to think about the real reasons the government wants more E.V's on the road, it reduces the amount of people with their own vehicle as current infrastructure can't cope with the increase in population. It is okay the working class might not be able to have their own vehicle any more as long as they have a newer vehicle for a couple of months every 3 years than their neighbour.
 
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You don't though, you now have a soulless 430bhp battery on ugly wheels.

Not wanting to derail the thread and maybe it comes from being working class but I have never understood the attraction of renting a car on pcp agreements etc. Paying out hundreds of pounds per month so you can keep up with the Jones next door has never appealed to me. Yes, car's depreciate etc. but renting a car unless it's for tax reasons for business is something I would never consider and struggle to wrap my head around.

Possibly my parents influence but if I can't afford to buy something, I just do without. Car's are my main hobby and something I am interested in. I have a fairly decent performing car that is currently after some modifications sitting at just over 400 bhp but I own it outright, even though I absolutely love the car if the options were getting into debt or renting to have it, I would just get a cheaper car that I could buy. Yes, it meant that I have to save to afford it but I am okay with that.

I guess people are just happy to live in debt. Having discussed this with people before there answer was that it allows them to have a a new car all the time that is under warranty because they are concerned about maintenance costs. I have a friend that is playing keeping up with the Jones, he always finances his cars and changes them every 3 years. He has a high performance car that he pays about £800 odd a month for that he got around the same time I changed my car and has payed a fortune in maintenance costs since purchase. My car has cost me about £400 a year in maintenance costs. Because I am not paying £800 a month on a car and I am not averaging about £3k a year in maintenance costs I have substantially more available income than he does although we both have a similar income. Every time I have discussed this it always boils down to the same thing those that drive cars that are beyond their means to buy, do so because they want to keep up "their lifestyle".

I don't even have a credit card any more it seemed pointless using it and then paying it off every month when I could just use my debit card.

I get that E.V's have perceived lower maintenance costs when you are just renting and changing every 3 years, long term though their maintenance costs are much higher than a car, depreciation is much higher than a car. That might appeal to someone that doesn't have any interest in cars and only wants something to get from A to B. Let's be honest though it's not about that or else everybody and their granny wouldn't have a Tesla, they would be driving about in an E.V Renault etc. E.V's are the new Vegans, look at me I can rent a battery owned by Elon Musk, I am saving the environment. :ROFLMAO: They then ignore anything negative about E.V's including the massive impact on the environment because of production and powering their E.V, the lack of infrastructure, the impact on the economy with the massive amount of skilled and unskilled job's that will be lost when real car's are completely phased out, the child labour involved in the production of E.V batteries and feeding the Chinese economy, the list goes on. The negatives of E.V's far and away out strip the negatives of car's. They don't want to think about the real reasons the government wants more E.V's on the road, it reduces the amount of people with their own vehicle as current infrastructure can't cope with the increase in population. It is okay the working class might not be able to have their own vehicle any more as long as they have a newer vehicle for a couple of months every 3 years than their neighbour.

That's a long read mate. But I can't say I disagree at all.

I have a mate I work with, a really good mate I went to school with, and he pays £1100 a month plus insurance, fuel etc for a Jaguar F-Pace SVR ..... And he mainly drives it to work and back, about 6-7 miles a day. Oh, and he drives it to different places to do site surveys every other week or so, with standard insurance but that's another subject...... His last one was 3 years at about £850 a month. This one is 4 years at £1100 a month..... Do the maths on that one!!


Like you, I just can't get my head around it. My last Focus was £3500 which I had for 7½ years and sold for £1400 a few months ago when I bought my 'new' 31,000 mile Focus for £2500 - my old Focus got knocked and hit so many times (when parked) that I wouldn't want a nice new car tbh! And the maintenance argument, that's a £50 oil change once a year ;)

Yes, I have my weekend car, but that's pretty much irrelevant :)
 
That's a long read mate. But I can't say I disagree at all.

I have a mate I work with, a really good mate I went to school with, and he pays £1100 a month plus insurance, fuel etc for a Jaguar F-Pace SVR ..... And he mainly drives it to work and back, about 6-7 miles a day. Oh, and he drives it to different places to do site surveys every other week or so, with standard insurance but that's another subject...... His last one was 3 years at about £850 a month. This one is 4 years at £1100 a month..... Do the maths on that one!!


Like you, I just can't get my head around it. My last Focus was £3500 which I had for 7½ years and sold for £1400 a few months ago when I bought my 'new' 31,000 mile Focus for £2500 - my old Focus got knocked and hit so many times (when parked) that I wouldn't want a nice new car tbh! And the maintenance argument, that's a £50 oil change once a year ;)

Yes, I have my weekend car, but that's pretty much irrelevant :)

It is nuts isn't it. :ROFLMAO:

About 4 years ago I bought my missus a Suzuki Vitara Grand Vitara, she wanted a big lump as she likes the high vantage point and it helps with her bad back, it's also handy for transporting the dogs as I am a bit precious about my own car, its a 2.5l petrol, it cost 5k. In the time she has owned it servicing at the local mechanics has cost about £80 a year, it averages about 30mpg which is decent considering the engine size and the weight of the car. She was debating changing it a couple of months ago but we haven't got around to doing anything about it yet, but I could probably easily get around 3.5k for it if we were to sell it. Compare that to paying out the cost of renting a new car over the same time frame and it's mental. :oops: :$
 
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If you haven't, I really wouldn't. They were quite nice when new but older examples are now getting expensive and troublesome. Roof problems, fuse boxes rotting out, rusting subframes. IF you can afford to treat it as a disposable fun car, it might be worth a punt but it would have to be VERY cheap.
I agree 100%.
It's just an emotional thing, and sometimes emotions trump common sense.
I have a Golf, which does what I need it to do and it's cheap motoring, but it's boring. The Merc is fun to drive, and would make a great second car.
All of my vehicles have been practical, sensible and boring with the exception of a top of the range BMW that I bought new in 1990, £32,700, and I only bought that because I'd had a very good year and wanted to reduce my taxable profits.
 
...I have never understood the attraction of renting a car on pcp agreements etc. Paying out hundreds of pounds per month so you can keep up with the Jones next door has never appealed to me.
I agree.

Having said which, I aquired various cars on contract hire over the years, because a reliable vehicle was an essential business tool at the time. The advantage to me was that the supplier paid if things fell off. I generally signed up for three years and bought out the car at the end, running it for an additional three to four years. This made sense, because I knew the car thoroughly at the end of the contract period and could make a sensible decision as to its value.
 
I'm pretty close to selling our car now, another 3 months and get into to Summer and I think it will be gone. We have the use of my dads old Peugeot 307 which is mint garaged with about 21k on the clock for a 2007 car about a mile walk from our house, we buy any car says its worth £2800 which seems reasonable, we just dont need a perm car anymore, we plan on spending way more time out of the country this year on jollies.
 
F1 is the pinnacle of automotive engineering. Seven of ten F1 teams are based in the UK. It's ironic that the Brits can't make a successful consumer car.
 
Yes, people have strong and entrenched opinions about real cars ICE cars v electric, and just about every thread seems even vaguely connected to cars seems to go the same sad way:(

But nothing is really logical about cars is it?
One of my neighbours has this old Merc and he's selling it.
View attachment 445150
not that we often get the opportunity to increase the headroom to 93 million miles in this country,

But for some reason I keep thinking about it:)
I’ve run a soft top for 18 years full time now, roof down every opportunity, if it’s fresh, jacket and hat, heater made to suit the small cabin, with hot air vents heating hands on the wheel. Only deep snow/ice stops me using it as it’s rwd on wide tyres. I know folk who have a car like it in sunny climes but use it with the roof up and ac on cause it’s too hot, and aware of skin damage caused by too much sun.
 
We've had convertibles for a long time, only getting rid of our mini in 2023 because we wanted a new car for my wife and didn't want to spend convertible money.
 
Well, I'm not going to buy it, it would be a ridiculous luxury purchase, could only be used as a second car that I don't need and would hardly get driven at all.

I'm just making the point that even old, staid, measure-twice-cut-once types like me can be tempted to make bad choices for purely emotional reasons:)
 
Well, I'm not going to buy it, it would be a ridiculous luxury purchase, could only be used as a second car that I don't need and would hardly get driven at all.

I'm just making the point that even old, staid, measure-twice-cut-once types like me can be tempted to make bad choices for purely emotional reasons:)
I use to sell cars for a living, sold many convertibles, hardest part of the deal? Getting the punter into the car to try it, then it was a fight to get them out again. Thinking about adding another similar to this.IMG_0123.jpeg
 
There are a couple of Mogs on the forecourt at our local Morgan dealership.
 
Our local guy has a modern 3 wheeler, wife’s says “NO Feckin WAY” Ah well.:sorry:
 
I don't mind the Harley (OK, S&S) powered ones (although I'd prefer one of the proper ones!) but I don't like the new ones. I see Morgans quite often since I pass the dealer on the way to g*lf!
 
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