Take a photograph OR Make an Image?

I am pretty sure that I have in no way decried the PS or darkroom methods that have and are used by professionals and amatures alike. It is purely a personal search for a challenging methodoligy within which I can work creatively. It seemed at the outset of my search that restricting the PS influence on the final image would in turn force a development of technique, style etc from me at the taking stage. Maybe I am wrong. It can't be that hard to restrict the digital manipulation process in a way to achieve my goal. It is NOT an ethical problem as I see it but more of a challenge to myself. Your observations so far have been very helpful in that regard in crystallising in my mind the cleared path I should take.
If anyone has a suggestion for method (workflow) along the lines already mentioned I would be very pleased to hear them. I will make up my mind soon. Thanks
 
CT, there's a vast difference between using a darkroom or photoshop to ENHANCE an image, and using them to RESCUE an image.

That said, it is fair to point out the things that can be fixed in PS in five seconds are often very long, tedious processes in the darkroom, and with less convincing results.

For example, a few years ago I shot an image of a girl that I really loved. It was very good, and I knew it. When I printed the image in the darkroom and saw the image come up on the paper, I saw a big problem; I had failed to notice two sticks on the ground directly behind her head, giving her the appearance of having antlers! It looked ridiculous, but the rest of the image was too good to pass up. It took me all day to get a successfully rescued print. In fact, it's such a pain to print that the negative is now retired. In PS, I can clone out the sticks in under a minute. Painful lesson, but I learned that day the value of watching my backgrounds and checking for mergers BEFORE I shoot rather than relying on fixing it after.

It's not a film versus digital debate at all, but rather an issue of the path of least resistance.

- CJ
 
Firstly Sharkey, I don't think that anyone has seen you as being dismisive of digi processing. More that you've sparked a good debate.

Personally, I'm not against or dismisive of any tools used to make our visions a reality in print or screen. Just that I feel that photography is esentially a blend of vision and camera craft. Anything beyond that is something else, not a lesser something just different. As far as I see it, when you enhance a neg with techniques in the darkroom that's printing. There have been thousands and thousands of great photographers that have turned to others to do the second half of creating their images because they can't print. This doesn't make them any less of a photograper. In the same way that being a fabulous printer or PS wizard doesn't make you more of one.
 
Having said that there's no escaping the fact that the film devotee has umpteen darkroom tools at his/her disposal to rescue a less than ideal negative. Extended or reduced time in the developer, harder or softer grades of paper and no end of dodging and burning at the enlarging stage. We have to take the purists' word for that they don't employ all these techniques which are just Photoshop in a far less convenient form. ;)

CT, I don't know many darkroom folks who would deny that they've dodged and burned or used a higher contrast filter? Those are simple mechanics of printing, slight adjustments really, whether done in the darkroom or PS. But it's wholly different than using the clone stamp to remove street signs and such. LOL.

- CJ
 
No-one here starts a thread about how wonderful their straight from camera images are because they know it takes a bit of time in the darkroom to finalise the imagery.

Actually, many of the images I've posted are straight prints/neg scans with no massaging. That's because they were right in-camera. ;)

- CJ
 
I still don't think anyone starts a thread boasting about how little Photoshopping they used :) It still all depends on what you're doing. Photography is just too big a subject to really apply rules to everything. Not every sports tog can do a good landscape. Not every landscaper can do portraits. I think you just have to find the areas you're interested in and then see how others do it and take what you can from it. For example if you shoot landscapes you have no control the light so sometimes you need to tweak things in PS. For studio you have control over everything so I guess its easier to get a better shot from the camera. Then of course you can brand anything under "Art" and go PS mad :)
 
It seemed at the outset of my search that restricting the PS influence on the final image would in turn force a development of technique, style etc from me at the taking stage. Maybe I am wrong.

I dont think you are wrong at all. In my opinion forcing yourself to get it right in camera (particularly composition wise) will make you a much better photographer in the end. This is why I tend to refuse to crop my motorsport shots. :)
 
As a journey person I just can't understand that. How I make my images is at least as important, if not more so than whether they end up in the keeping or chucking pile.

I guess it comes down to whether you'r passion is for making images or having them.

So you don't accept that you may get a fantastic image straight out of the camera or you may need to add some processing tricks to achive a good result? Either way if you get a fantastic image it doesn't really matter?

:shrug:
 
As when a working pro I have to say the last place you would find me (dragged kicking & screaming)would be the darkroom. So perhaps this is just a carry over from that. I always managed to find a lab tech. or man round the corner who had the talents I needed to complete the job as I wanted. Lovely chaps one and all. Seemed to me when I started off that my job was to press the button (decisions made). Although I new enough of darkroom tech. to hold a meaningful conversation that was as far as I wanted my knowledge to grow. Stay with the camera/subject and me set up. I've managed to avoid the dreaded 'chimping' and can honestly say I was quite happy most days to go home 'as with film' pretty dam sure I had the shots needed. So. These knowledgable comments and perspectives on my original question have been a real boot in the right direction.
Certainly the look before you click theme is one to hold firm to as is the camera skills first line.Anyway I hope you got as much out of it as I have.
By the way fishermen depart with saying 'tight lines'. What do dyed in the wool photographers say?
 
''You CAN shoot a wonderful image with no adjustments. Moreover, you SHOULD be able to do so 98% of the time. If you can't do that, you need to look at your technique and ask yourself why.''

here here!

I have nothing against digital images and I do enjoy the creative options they allow.......

but if you can't create quality photos using film or just without all the processing tools we have now, then you're not a photograper. That's not to say you aren't an artist and all arts surely deserve the same chance for respect but photography is about being able to create with a camera.

Photography has evolved, unfortunately some photographers have not, it seems.

Currently the best photographers in the world use digital and process thier images as they see fit. Nobody is talking about removing lamposts from people's heads etc, people refer to digital processing as lighting adjustments and sharpening tools or HDR etc.

Ultimately it is not really your place to suggest that someone who uses different, more current methods to yourself is not of the same standing in the photography community.
 
Getting the image right in the camera first time in digital format is just as difficult and skillfull as with film.YES/NO?
I am absolutely sure that any pro. top of the pile or not would agree that the satisfaction gained (not forgetting time saved and money earn't) from getting it right first time is b****y great and no comparison to the tedious work necessary to bring a 'good' capture up to spec.. This is not a mine better than yours chat. more a find a way forward for me chat!
 
Well lets think of it this way. Its a little hard to shoot BW on digital. Its possible but unless I shoot JPG then Photoshop turns off the BW settings in RAW so I have to process my images to BW. I shoot in BW and I can see the image on the display in BW. I can see those shots that I have nailed perfectly. Great exposure, composition, tones, light, shadows, etc. I still then have to Photoshop my images.
 
The perfect representation of an image in front of my camera could be brilliant/perfect but in some way I'd like to see photography with the worts.
CT produces as near to perfection in what he does and I thik that is glorious but, I don't see the world as he does and somehow Iwant my work to reflect that.

I certainly don't think of my stuff as being perfect or anywhere near, in fact the day I achieved the perfect shot I think I'd just pack it in. I'll take it as a compliment, but do I detect a sting in the tail there in view of the nature of this thread? You seem to be making me the antithesis of this pure approach you're seeking. ;)

For the record the thing I rely on most is good solid basic technique at the time I press the shutter. I shoot RAW but I often don't make any adjustments in RSP at all... even white balance. Once outputted as a TIFF I make only the most minor adjustments to contrast and sharpening if necessary.
 
It's discussions like this that suck the fun out of photography , at the end of the thread I'm allways left feeling like a P&S noob because I dared to install PS on my PC :shake:

I crop/saturate/change exposure/sharpen , infact do anything to get the final shot how I want it to look , I don't give a flying **** if it looks like the original.




Ps. Sometimes I even leave it alone :eek:



PPs. I also 'Chimp' , because I enjoy what I do :D
 
I certainly don't think of my stuff as being perfect or anywhere near, in fact the day I achieved the perfect shot I think I'd just pack it in. I'll take it as a compliment, but do I detect a sting in the tail there in view of the nature of this thread? You seem to be making me the antithesis of this pure approach you're seeking. ;)

For the record the thing I rely on most is good solid basic technique at the time I press the shutter. I shoot RAW but I often don't make any adjustments in RSP at all... even white balance. Once outputted as a TIFF I make only the most minor adjustments to contrast and sharpening if necessary.

I obviously had no idea what your working practise was CT, but now I can see that yes, it is damn close to the methods I've been going on about.Like it or not , take the picture-minimal post fixing and result pretty good is what I'm after.
At the start of this all I asked was suggestions on method (restrictions) and Iseem to have gotten there, nearly.
I suppose the slightly confrontational approach of some has moved the thread off line once or twice but in general all the thoughts have been constructive, yours included.
By the by it is no accident imho that the breakthroughs in colour management in digital photography have come from renouned film users and traditional printers. They moved on within photography by setting goals and then finding the way. Agood example, well good enough for me anyway.If we dont push ourselves into uncomfortable places seems to me we go backwards not forwards?
 
It's discussions like this that suck the fun out of photography , at the end of the thread I'm allways left feeling like a P&S noob because I dared to install PS on my PC :shake:

I crop/saturate/change exposure/sharpen , infact do anything to get the final shot how I want it to look , I don't give a flying **** if it looks like the original.




Ps. Sometimes I even leave it alone :eek:



PPs. I also 'Chimp' , because I enjoy what I do :D
Whatever floats your boat I say.
I never intended nor do I intend to put down any ways that work for you all. Just wanted a bit of help to sort out my thoughts.I got it too. Thanks
 
Whatever floats your boat I say.
I never intended nor do I intend to put down any ways that work for you all. Just wanted a bit of help to sort out my thoughts.I got it too. Thanks

no dig intended :)
 
I think some of the responses are being taken the wrong way.

I don't see anyone saying "Photoshop is evil" or "you're a lesser human being if you postprocess your images." I think all that's being said is that extensive PS or darkroom fixes should not be required in order to get a successful shot. Can't imagine anyone would disagree with that?

BBW, that's actually a bit of an overgeneralization you made with regards to the best photogs in the world using digital. Certainly many do, but there are LOTS of dinosaurs like me who do very artful film work, even on the commercial side, and are paid top dollar for what they do. When you get into the gallery B&W world, it's still dominated by film shooters, many of them large format.

There's room for everyone and every way of working. But you can't argue with the value of knowing how to get something right in the camera.

- CJ
 
Pablo Picasso saw the world in a different way, I think he may have liked photoshop:lol:

Don't mind me I'm:cuckoo: .
 
Pablo Picasso saw the world in a different way, I think he may have liked photoshop:lol:

Don't mind me I'm:cuckoo: .

Now if somebody had just shown him what the red/green sliders did ..........
 
Photography has evolved, unfortunately some photographers have not, it seems.

Currently the best photographers in the world use digital and process thier images as they see fit. Nobody is talking about removing lamposts from people's heads etc, people refer to digital processing as lighting adjustments and sharpening tools or HDR etc.

Ultimately it is not really your place to suggest that someone who uses different, more current methods to yourself is not of the same standing in the photography community.

BBW you are completely misreading what I'm saying here and spoiling for a fight that doesn't exist. So, lets look at some of your points and see if I can explain better. If not, we're just going to have to sort this over a pint or two sometime.;)

>Photography has evolved, unfortunately some photographers have not, it seems.

At the risk of being pedantic, photography has not really evolved at all because of digital capture. It's only the tools that have changed. Beyond our wildest dreams of as little as 10 years ago even but they are still just tools to used by artists and craftsmen.

>Ultimately it is not really your place to suggest that someone who uses different, more current methods to yourself is not of the same standing in the photography community.

You seem to think I'm some kind of judgemental dinosaur, stuck in a rose tinted world of chemical stench and twin lensed boxes. There is no-one using more current methods than me. I've been running a 100% digital workflow as far as my business in concerned for years now and I love it.

My whole point was that the tools you use and how you use them has no bearing on "your standing" as a creative artist at all. But if someone does most of the creative process outside of the camera, it's not photography. End of. Regardless of how fabulous they are and how amazing the end result is.

Photography does not happen in computers and it does not happen under enlargers. Let me use an example here, from time to time I build the sets for shoots myself rather than have a chippy do it. It can be helpful with bringing together my ideas for how the final images are going to look. It's instumental in the process of creating the photographs. It is not photography though.

>Currently the best photographers in the world use digital

Actually, lets just gloss over that rather sweeping generalisation. ;) :lol:

My main point I supose is that photography is the art of creating images with a camera. It doesn't matter whether the light falls on to silver or pixels, it's not important. What is important is the principle of turning a vision into something viewable via the medium of the lens. If you want to do other things to the image to enhance, change, correct or adapt it (which I do all the time) then that's great and huge amounts of skill and talent exist in these areas of course.

BUT... it's not photography. Any more than mount cutting and framing are.


It's discussions like this that suck the fun out of photography , at the end of the thread I'm allways left feeling like a P&S noob because I dared to install PS on my PC

I find that really sad and it was certianly never my intention to cause any bad feeling. I think we should all be able to discuss these things frankly and openly safe in the knowledge that whatever our opinions, we all agree that the one most important fact, head and shoulders above all others is that the passion for making images is the most important thing of all.
 
Pablo Picasso saw the world in a different way, I think he may have liked photoshop:lol:

Don't mind me I'm:cuckoo: .

The more I think about it the more I start to believe that Ansel Adams would have been right at the cutting edge of digital technology had it come along during his pioneering years. The ability to place the tonal values and control their relationships so precisely seems right up his alley.

Could probably be linched in some places for saying that. :lol:
 
Pablo Picasso saw the world in a different way, I think he may have liked photoshop:lol:

Don't mind me I'm:cuckoo: .

He was also a superb draftsman and incredible skilled painter who pushed the bounderies of his art. I'm no Picasso but I'm trying to push myself forward, at least.
 
The more I think about it the more I start to believe that Ansel Adams would have been right at the cutting edge of digital technology had it come along during he pioneering years. The ability to place the tonal values and control their relationships so precisely seems right up his alley.

Could probably be linched in some places for saying that. :lol:

LOL I just know that's right in the same way that Beethoven and Mozart et al would be all over a modern synthesiser like a bad rash. :D
 
The more I think about it the more I start to believe that Ansel Adams would have been right at the cutting edge of digital technology had it come along during his pioneering years. The ability to place the tonal values and control their relationships so precisely seems right up his alley.

Could probably be linched in some places for saying that. :lol:

A profoundly precise selection of an artist tradesman of the highest calibre. What a dream to aspire to.
 
All agreed then whatever works is ok? So long as we are honest yo ourselves!
 
The more I think about it the more I start to believe that Ansel Adams would have been right at the cutting edge of digital technology had it come along during his pioneering years. The ability to place the tonal values and control their relationships so precisely seems right up his alley.

Could probably be linched in some places for saying that. :lol:
He was though, I've read an article about it. He lived to some ridiculously old age (he died in 84 I think) and was in touch with at least the theoretical beginnings of digital, and he was extremely interested in the possibilities.
 
Adams died in 1984 aged 82. He spent a lot of his later years preoccupied with playing piano.
 
As a film shooter, I'm quite sure AA would have been gaga over digital. He was a technician at heart, not a purist in any sense.
 
As a film shooter, I'm quite sure AA would have been gaga over digital. He was a technician at heart, not a purist in any sense.

Absolutely true. Despite his preoccupation with exposure and inventing his Zone Metering System, he was a master in the darkroom and spent hours and days manipulating his prints to get the result he had envisaged. That doesn't take anything away from the man imo, he is quite rightly revered for his work.
 
Slight derail, but I think Sharkey has got what he was after from this thread.

I think there's an essential difference between what Ansel Adams was doing (and what most US landscape photographers aspire to in his footsteps) and what most British landscape photographers (e.g. Joe Cornish) are doing. The key difference is that Adams took pictures of landscapes that for the most part had no trace of humanity. Whereas in the UK, there are thousands of years of history wherever you point your lens. Even the absence of trees in Northumbria can be traced to Bronze Age slash and burn farming.
 
So, where I was going with that stuff about historical landscapes above was this.

For me at least, there's another dimension besides the image itself, which is understanding what you're looking at and if you're able to, communicating something meaningful based on that understanding by making a photograph.

Now I suspect that some might say that photography is strictly about the play of light and form, but I struggle a bit with that.
 
Quite often I just take photographs but the more I learn the more I make images.
 
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