Star trails gone a bit wrong

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Sweety

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Neil
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I'm a total newbie to photography but last night thought I would have a go at trying some star trails, I used Starstax to stack them but the trails have come out dotty not nice & smooth like everyone else's. I only have a Sony H400 bridge camera with a 30 second exposure which seems to take 20-30 seconds to process each image could this be my problem or have I messed up somewhere else

 
The dots in the trails are due to the time your camera is processing the shot, while the camera is working the stars are still moving, as you guessed this produces the gaps in the trail.

To get round this you have to turn of the noise reduction if you can?, you also appear to have knocked the tripod during the shot as you have a double exposure on the building and grass.
 
Does your camera have noise reduction turned on? If so, turm it off.
 
Thanks huffy, yes the tripod moved a bit but tbh I'm not worried about it & knew it had happened but this was a sort test shot only. I don't think I can turn off any noise reduction on this camera but will have a closer look at the settings, maybe i'm going to have to wait a while until I have the funds for a better camera before I try & do light trails then
 
You have the merest hint of two different radii in that shot. It can happen but I didn't think you could see it in this country. Where was the shot taken?
 
mickledore said:
You have the merest hint of two different radii in that shot. It can happen but I didn't think you could see it in this country. Where was the shot taken?
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By the "two different Radii" are you referring to the stars trialing differently at the top and bottom of the picture. This will happen if you are facing east or west as this is the North/South divide in the sky. Here is an example not quite facing west, more north west but you can see the effect.

148GannelStarTrail59MinsPS2 by Martin Coomer, on Flickr

@Sweety Also there is a larger gap from the 1st photo to the next and this seems to be where the tripod had moved. If you do a test shot don't include it in the stax as only a short delay between the shots will cause a gap even using gap filling mode in star stax.
 
The two radii are known as shooting at the Celestial Equator..

Happens quite often in this country, with people shooting out into the sea, east and west..

My most recent.

Startrails 15-12-14 by BennyBoo43, on Flickr
 
mickledore said:
You have the merest hint of two different radii in that shot. It can happen but I didn't think you could see it in this country. Where was the shot taken?
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I took the shot in Belsay Northumberland & I was facing south west which I understand isn't the best direction but if I faced north I just got a glow coming off Morpeth :(
Had a close look at my camera & can't turn off any noise reduction as it's not listed in any of the settings so maybe i've found one of the limits of my camera but will give it another go & try to react faster between shots. Would cutting the exposure time down from 30 seconds to say 20-25 help any to hopefully reduce the processing time & smooth out the dots.
Anyway thanks to everyone for their advice & help:)
 
Thanks guys. I didn't know you could see different radii here. I'll try that next time it's dark and clear.
 
What your looking for in your camera is LENR "Long Exposure Noise Reduction" you need to turn that off, I cannot find a proper manual for your camera on line to see if I can find how to do it for you or if the call it something different but put simply any noise reduction it's best to turn it off in camera as you can do it much more effectively in editing, and besides the actual stacking process will also help to reduce / average out any noise..

Another source of the gaps if not LNER could be the trigger you are using to fire your camera so why type of tigger are you using?

Finally in regards to the dual axis nature of the trails as said above basically shoot wide enough and facing roughly East or west and you'll see this effect in your trails
 
MWHCVT said:
What your looking for in your camera is LENR "Long Exposure Noise Reduction" you need to turn that off, I cannot find a proper manual for your camera on line to see if I can find how to do it for you or if the call it something different but put simply any noise reduction it's best to turn it off in camera as you can do it much more effectively in editing, and besides the actual stacking process will also help to reduce / average out any noise..

Another source of the gaps if not LNER could be the trigger you are using to fire your camera so why type of tigger are you using?

Finally in regards to the dual axis nature of the trails as said above basically shoot wide enough and facing roughly East or west and you'll see this effect in your trails
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Cheers got nothing like that listed in the settings & don't think I have an option to switch off NR sadly, regarding the trigger I don't have the option to use a remote trigger on this camera so got to be very gentle pressing the shutter button or use the lowest timer of 2 seconds. As I said before maybe i'm asking to much from my camera doing star trails
 
Sweety said:
Cheers got nothing like that listed in the settings & don't think I have an option to switch off NR sadly, regarding the trigger I don't have the option to use a remote trigger on this camera so got to be very gentle pressing the shutter button or use the lowest timer of 2 seconds. As I said before maybe i'm asking to much from my camera doing star trails
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Possibly so I'll be honest I'm really struggling to actually find solid information on the camera in general
 
posiview said:
He needs to buy a Nikon ;)
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Erm some of the older entry level nikons struggled with star trails too IIRC things like not taking a remote or being limited to 100 exposures :P :canon:
 
MWHCVT said:
What your looking for in your camera is LENR "Long Exposure Noise Reduction" you need to turn that off, I cannot find a proper manual for your camera on line to see if I can find how to do it for you or if the call it something different but put simply any noise reduction it's best to turn it off in camera as you can do it much more effectively in editing, and besides the actual stacking process will also help to reduce / average out any noise..

Another source of the gaps if not LNER could be the trigger you are using to fire your camera so why type of tigger are you using?

Finally in regards to the dual axis nature of the trails as said above basically shoot wide enough and facing roughly East or west and you'll see this effect in your trails
Click to expand...


He's bang on... with long exposure noise reduction, if you have a 30 second shutter speed let's say... the camera, after taking the shot, will activate the sensor for the same amount of time as the first exposure, then look for any sensor hot spots, or hot pixels... and remove them from the original. So total exposure time is shutter speed x2, plus processing time. In short, a 30 second exposure will take over 1 minute.

Switch it off, and remove any hot pixels manually in lightroom or photoshop.
 
Looking at the on-line instructions for this camera there is a piece about the NR being automatically turned on for slow shutter speeds but no instructions about being able to switch this option off.
 
MWHCVT said:
Erm some of the older entry level nikons struggled with star trails too IIRC things like not taking a remote or being limited to 100 exposures :p :canon:
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Even the modern Nikon's like my D7100 and D750 have this annoying 100 shot limit. You can turn the remote on and off at any time and it resets the counter so you don't get any gaps.
 
MartinCornwall said:
Even the modern Nikon's like my D7100 and D750 have this annoying 100 shot limit. You can turn the remote on and off at any time and it resets the counter so you don't get any gaps.
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Well that's frustrating and to be honest I've never worked out why they would do that :(
 
Firstly thanks to everyone for their input as i'm very grateful :D for the life of me I can't find any way to switch off the NR so maybe I can't but at least I now know one of the limits of my camera so probably best to give up trying to do light trails (saves me freezing body parts off for an hour or more) & maybe shoot something nice with the stars as a back drop instead. Still learning all the basics at the moment & finding out what I do & don't like photographing which will hopefully mean when I do upgrade my camera i'll have a much better idea of what to buy to meet my needs & yes it might be a Nikon yet again it might be a Canon:LOL::LOL:
 
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Sweety said:
Thanks huffy, yes the tripod moved a bit but tbh I'm not worried about it & knew it had happened but this was a sort test shot only. I don't think I can turn off any noise reduction on this camera but will have a closer look at the settings, maybe i'm going to have to wait a while until I have the funds for a better camera before I try & do light trails then
Click to expand...

Your manual would tell you how to turn it off or anything like that. According to an online manual for your camera, from https://www.manualowl.com/m/Sony/DSC-H400/Manual/414649, it states that...

"When the shutter speed becomes slower than a certain speed, the NR slow shutter function is activated automatically to reduce image noise, and [NR] appears on the screen"
"If you select slow shutter speeds, it takes time to process the data."

So you would have to check your manual to see if you can turn off the NR, I would assume such features were only built-in to help hand holding at slower speeds, so they're not really must use things for when using tripods, therefore could be overridden or turned off. You need to find a way to turn it off, the only way you can tell is if the symbol NR is no longer showing on your LCD screen.
 
Major Eazy said:
Your manual would tell you how to turn it off or anything like that. According to an online manual for your camera, from https://www.manualowl.com/m/Sony/DSC-H400/Manual/414649, it states that...

"When the shutter speed becomes slower than a certain speed, the NR slow shutter function is activated automatically to reduce image noise, and [NR] appears on the screen"
"If you select slow shutter speeds, it takes time to process the data."

So you would have to check your manual to see if you can turn off the NR, I would assume such features were only built-in to help hand holding at slower speeds, so they're not really must use things for when using tripods, therefore could be overridden or turned off. You need to find a way to turn it off, the only way you can tell is if the symbol NR is no longer showing on your LCD screen.
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Noise reduction isn't going to do anything to help hand holding at low shutter speeds, I suspect your thinking of image stabilisation
 
I don't know anything about your camera but with the Canon DSLRs I've used for astrophography the NR only kicks in at 30s or above. So at 29s NR (or dark framing as it's sometimes called) doesn't happen even if it's turned on. It might be worth experimenting to see if this is the case with your camera (ie if it's automatic at 'slow shutter speeds', just what is 'a slow shutter speed'). Dark framing is taking an image with the shutter closed (or you can take an actual frame with the lens cap on). All that will be on it is sensor noise and hot pixels. It is then subtracted from the image. In practice you can apply NR in pp and clone out hot pixels. If you can get the camera not to dark frame you may still find that not being able to use a remote release is an issue, but sort out the NR first.
 
Jannyfox said:
I don't know anything about your camera but with the Canon DSLRs I've used for astrophography the NR only kicks in at 30s or above. So at 29s NR (or dark framing as it's sometimes called) doesn't happen even if it's turned on. It might be worth experimenting to see if this is the case with your camera (ie if it's automatic at 'slow shutter speeds', just what is 'a slow shutter speed'). Dark framing is taking an image with the shutter closed (or you can take an actual frame with the lens cap on). All that will be on it is sensor noise and hot pixels. It is then subtracted from the image. In practice you can apply NR in pp and clone out hot pixels. If you can get the camera not to dark frame you may still find that not being able to use a remote release is an issue, but sort out the NR first.
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I should imagine with the smaller sensor on the OPs camera this won't be the case as the noise even at much shorter exposures would be pretty significant.
 
Major Eazy said:
Your manual would tell you how to turn it off or anything like that. According to an online manual for your camera, from https://www.manualowl.com/m/Sony/DSC-H400/Manual/414649, it states that...

"When the shutter speed becomes slower than a certain speed, the NR slow shutter function is activated automatically to reduce image noise, and [NR] appears on the screen"
"If you select slow shutter speeds, it takes time to process the data."

So you would have to check your manual to see if you can turn off the NR, I would assume such features were only built-in to help hand holding at slower speeds, so they're not really must use things for when using tripods, therefore could be overridden or turned off. You need to find a way to turn it off, the only way you can tell is if the symbol NR is no longer showing on your LCD screen.
Click to expand...
The so called manual you get with the camera is basically an A4 sheet & totally useless so did some googling as you do & the only manual I was able to find is the one you guy's have put a link to but thanks for taking the time to look for one for me:)
 
Try emailing Sony and asking them?
 
Sweety said:
The so called manual you get with the camera is basically an A4 sheet & totally useless so did some googling as you do & the only manual I was able to find is the one you guy's have put a link to but thanks for taking the time to look for one for me:)
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You're welcome.

But surely there would be a CD-ROM that came with the camera, and includes a full manual in it? Usually in PDF file.
 
Major Eazy said:
You're welcome.

But surely there would be a CD-ROM that came with the camera, and includes a full manual in it? Usually in PDF file.
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Sadly no which was a little disappointing from such a big company luckily the camera is easy to work out even for a novice like me. Even when the time comes for me to upgrade i'll be keeping a hold of it for my wife to use as she has a great eye when it comes to taking photos & it may even get her into the hobby which would be nice
 
Sweety said:
Sadly no which was a little disappointing from such a big company luckily the camera is easy to work out even for a novice like me. Even when the time comes for me to upgrade i'll be keeping a hold of it for my wife to use as she has a great eye when it comes to taking photos & it may even get her into the hobby which would be nice
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Jeez Christ!! A production but no manual? Their job is to make a camera for you to enjoy taking pictures after learning how to use it, not to make a camera and expect you to spend hours learning it like some reverse engineering!

Although your pic do seems to show the trails as a bit dotty, it do somehow seems to be impressive anyway.
 
Major Eazy said:
Although your pic do seems to show the trails as a bit dotty, it do somehow seems to be impressive anyway.
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Thank you for that nice comment :) I'm going to have a go at doing another one & make sure the tripod doesn't move this time, I know it'll come out dotty again but it will be good to show family members how much our planet moves in say 30-40 seconds between shots
 
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