Speedlites or power pack flash?

maninsuitcase

maninsuitcase

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In a previous thread I stated I was after a speedlite for wildlife use. A good deal has yet to happen so I've been thinking, which is always the start of a terrible idea.

Edit: The below is all waffle to the effect of "I'd like a large soft box, will an Nikon SB-8/900 have enough power at sencible ISOs or will I need something more powerful like a Battery pack flash. Ideally the softbox will be S fit to start a system and not limit me to speedlight only accessories.

While I'd like to try a better beamer I'd also like to experiment with off camera, remote and also people (:eek:).

As such I've been looking at modifiers and it seems for speedlites you're pretty limited due to mounting options and power.

Would I be better off going with a single SB-8/900 and an S-fit adapter or a battery pack. From the reading I've been doing it seems once you add a soft box or similar you will be cranking the speedlight power. I am looking at an adapter rather than dedicated speedlight stuff as it gives the option of re-use not rebuying. The loss of use of a beamer, right now is a con for sure but not a deal breaker. Most folk in the UK seem to manage just fine!

Cost wise I am less worried then before. It seems residual values are good, if I buy a used SB it's going to cost me the postage to sell it again more or less and while a battery pack would be more money up front they also seem to be holding value at resale.

For reference I was looking at the Jenbei Discovery 600* and also a new Bessel unit but I can't find any reviews.

The pros for each option seem to be:
Battery pack: faster recycle, power to spare, proper modifiers.
SB: cheaper, smaller/lighter, can be used with CLS. Buying in at the top end.

*I know there's the Lencarta but right now I'm not sure I'd benefit from the additions it has and would be better of with a softbox or something instead. Besides if I stick with it I can add a safari to extend the system.
 
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From your previous post, TTL is a must - which means that you're limited to hotshoe flashguns only. If you work something like a SB800/900 hard you'll have problems with overheating, so what you really have to think about is the importance of TTL.

Jinbei Discovery - only available from foreign sellers, think about whether or not they have service facilities and the level of after sales support you'll get.

New Bessel unit - I don't know who makes it, so can't comment, and wouldn't even if I knew anything about it.

Which leaves you, I think, with one of the Quantum offerings, or with the new Lencarta Atom. They are very similar to each other in general design, personally I think that the Atom offers much better build quality, value for money and performance but then I would say that wouldn't I:)

The Atom is the latest incarnation of the Godox Wistra, which is sold in the USA under the name of Cheetah. This long thread may be helpful, just ignore all the silly claims about who actually designed it.

The Atom/Godox?Cheetah doesn't have TTL and has its own accessory mount - but the great thing about it, apart from its power and performance, is that it's a barebulb flash. This means that you can stick a S-fit adapter on to it and get the same quality of light that you'd get from a studio flash - it's always the built in reflectors on hotshoe flashguns that limit their versatility and light quality.
 
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TTL is only really a must for the long lens wildlife idea. I use aperture priority and exp comp as needed as I am not good enough to ride manual exposure. This was always a something to try and experiment with rather than a route to an idea in my head.

I suppose the real question is a single 8/900 up to what I want to do?

I have a couple of shots I want to do that require a largeish softbox so it would make more sense to get into a system than to buy a one trick pony that I can't reuse later. If to fill a large box will mean 1/1 pops and all that brings then I suspect I'd be better off with a studio head.

I have a few ideas floating about that mean having the head out doors. While I could run an extension for some initially, I suspect a battery proper battery unit is cheaper than a studio head and an inverter.

Looking at the Atom/Cheetah units, wouldn't I have the same power limiting as a SB? The GN seems similar so while I gain barebulb, I loose all the pros of the normal light.

Sorry if some of this seems dense but my only real lighting experience is a cheap YN flash and a shoot through brolly. I want to learn more but I think I got the wrong starter stuff which has put me off before.
 
maninsuitcase said:
In a previous thread I stated I was after a speedlite for wildlife use. A good deal has yet to happen so I've been thinking, which is always the start of a terrible idea.

While I'd like to try a better beamer I'd also like to experiment with off camera, remote and also people (:eek:).

As such I've been looking at modifiers and it seems for speedlites you're pretty limited due to mounting options and power.

Would I be better off going with a single SB-8/900 and an S-fit adapter or a battery pack. From the reading I've been doing it seems once you add a soft box or similar you will be cranking the speedlight power. I am looking at an adapter rather than dedicated speedlight stuff as it gives the option of re-use not rebuying. The loss of use of a beamer, right now is a con for sure but not a deal breaker. Most folk in the UK seem to manage just fine!

Cost wise I am less worried then before. It seems residual values are good, if I buy a used SB it's going to cost me the postage to sell it again more or less and while a battery pack would be more money up front they also seem to be holding value at resale.

For reference I was looking at the Jenbei Discovery 600* and also a new Bessel unit but I can't find any reviews.

The pros for each option seem to be:
Battery pack: faster recycle, power to spare, proper modifiers.
SB: cheaper, smaller/lighter, can be used with CLS. Buying in at the top end.

*I know there's the Lencarta but right now I'm not sure I'd benefit from the additions it has and would be better of with a softbox or something instead. Besides if I stick with it I can add a safari to extend the system.
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Not following this... :thinking:

What is it that you want to do (main priority) in a sentence, and budget?
 
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HoppyUK said:
Not following this... :thinking:

What is it that you want to do, in a sentence, and budget?
Click to expand...

I would like a versatile system that can do basic 1 light work at home with the family but also be able to be taken outside. I feel I would like more options than an umbrella, and it seems silly to buy a speedlight only softbox.

Budget will be about 500-600 ish unless this isn't reasonable. I am happy to buy used to do this if needed.

One idea I want to explore will need a big soft light source. Will an SB-9/800 do it or will I just melt the flash? I guess as I want big and soft it will be close, so lower the power requirements, but as I mentioned I'm a bit out of my depth.
 
You know, I was just wondering the other day how long it would be until the answer to a question on here was "the new Lencarta Atom" :D.

I'm really struggling to understand what you want to do but I can't see why an SB900 wouldn't do it if an Atom would. Personally I wouldn't even use a power pack since they will run for a long time on decent batteries.

ETA: posts crossed.

I often run an SB all day in a softbox. Never melted one yet ;)
 
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JonathanRyan said:
I'm really struggling to understand what you want to do but I can't see why an SB900 wouldn't do it if an Atom would. Personally I wouldn't even use a power pack since they will run for a long time on decent batteries.
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Essentially I want get a softbox I think.

I think my confusion has come from seeing people like McNally et al insist on firing a small arsenal of top end speed lights into these so I am worried a single one isn't up to it. So now I am looking at 2 (or more?) so I may as well get 1 big light and have done.

The Atom, to me at least, seems something I don't want.
 
Looking at the Atom/Cheetah units, wouldn't I have the same power limiting as a SB? The GN seems similar so while I gain barebulb, I loose all the pros of the normal light.
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No. Even the Atom 180 has substantially more power than a hotshoe flash. If you go for the 360 model (with the extra cost and extra bulk as a downside) you double the power again.

Don't get confused by guide numbers. In my experience, hotshoe flashgun guide numbers are arrived at by setting the zoom to maximum, and measuring the power in a small white room, going downhill with the wind behind it - that's why the SB-900 has a higher guide number than the more powerful SB-800, the SB900 zoom is longer.
The Atom figures are tested with a 35 degree reflector, which is real world. Fit a narrower reflector and the guide number goes through the roof.
You know, I was just wondering the other day how long it would be until the answer to a question on here was "the new Lencarta Atom" .
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If you feel that you have a product that may be suitable, just link to it.
 
maninsuitcase said:
So I'd probably be okay with a SB an S adapter and a softbox of up to say 1m? (I have no idea how big I need ftw, just trying to work out limits)
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I bet you would. IIRC the larger one I use is 34 inches.

It's going to depend more on the ambient light than the size of the softbox.

Re the speedlight power....take a look at the manual. Nikon helpfully give the guide number at every zoom position and for every one of the lighting patterns for both FX and DX sensors.
 
JonathanRyan said:
I bet you would. IIRC the larger one I use is 34 inches.

It's going to depend more on the ambient light than the size of the softbox.

Re the speedlight power....take a look at the manual. Nikon helpfully give the guide number at every zoom position and for every one of the lighting patterns for both FX and DX sensors.
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Blimey the SB-900 manual is 147 pages!

So ISO 100, f4 24mm zoom is 6.7m. A softbox will probably eat about 2 stops? So ISO 400 and the light will be much closer than that.

Think this is the way to go then.
 
maninsuitcase said:
Blimey the SB-900 manual is 147 pages!

So ISO 100, f4 24mm zoom is 6.7m. A softbox will probably eat about 2 stops? So ISO 400 and the light will be much closer than that.

Think this is the way to go then.
Click to expand...

I have figures for an SB900 in a typical 80-100cm softbox - a bit over f/11 at 1.0m ISO100. 120-150Ws equivalent, something of that order. It's a powerful gun, but recycle is slow at max and while Jonathan hasn't had any problems driving one hard, many people have.

If you're looking for the perfect flash for everything, it doesn't exist. But I would say every photographer needs at least one or two good hot-shoe guns regardless, with a bit of power, HSS and auto-TTL of course. So I'd go down that route first and see how you get on, with the Better Beamer etc, and don't try to sort everything at once. You'll make mistakes for sure, possibly some big and expensive ones. Start with what you know you need, then build one step at a time.

Then have a go at portraits using the speedlite and a softbox. Get a cheapie, or use a brolly - can't go far wrong, and always handy to have. If that does the trick then great, though personally an extra £100-ish for a Lencarta Smartflash head or similar, I'd just go straight for that. Studio heads and speedlites go well together if you want to develop the studio side, using the speedlites in positions where you don't need much power, so they recycle fast.

BTW, IMHO trying to compare guide numbers between speedlites and studio type heads is a waste of time. The way they project light is so different that when you put them both in a softbox and measure the total light output on a level playing field, you'll get different numbers.
 
I've only had a VERY brief scan through the thread, but if over heating a speedlite is going to be a problem, you could always put 2 in a soft box and run them at half power each.
 
acetone said:
I've only had a VERY brief scan through the thread, but if over heating a speedlite is going to be a problem, you could always put 2 in a soft box and run them at half power each.
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Yes you can, which will double the cost, in effect rewarding the manufacturers for designing their products badly.
 
Garry Edwards said:
Yes you can, which will double the cost, in effect rewarding the manufacturers for designing their products badly.
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I wouldn't say badly designed. There's only so much power to be had from 4 AA batteries.

But yes doubling up means your into the starting area for a pack and head (especially if you're buying new). Which was why I asked. Seems for what I want the SB will be fine, at least to start with anyway.
 
SB-900 has been ordered from MPB for a fair price (cheaper than eBay and with 6 months of support).

I have a shoot through umbrella already so will start there and see what I can achieve.
 
maninsuitcase said:
SB-900 has been ordered from MPB for a fair price (cheaper than eBay and with 6 months of support).

I have a shoot through umbrella already so will start there and see what I can achieve.
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:thumbs:

Suggest get a couple more cheap umbrellas - white and silver (eg Kood from Premier Ink). And a white/silver reflector.

Then try this, just to get a feel for things: same subject, same camera position, first with each umbrella in turn from 1.0m. Then move the umbrella back to 2m, note the change in exposure (it will drop about two stops) and how the shadows fall (they'll get harder). Then add the white reflector on the shadow side, then silver side, and compare again.

Easy test with a lot of permutations there, all different, and that's before you start to change the light angle. It will give you a good grounding on some simple basics :)
 
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HoppyUK said:
:thumbs:

Suggest get a couple more cheap umbrellas - white and silver (eg Kood from Premier Ink). And a white/silver reflector.

Then try this, just to get a feel for things: same subject, same camera position, first with each umbrella in turn from 1.0m. Then move the umbrella back to 2m, note the change in exposure (it will drop about two stops) and how the shadows fall (they'll get harder). Then add the white reflector on the shadow side, then silver side, and compare again.

Easy test with a lot of permutations there, all different, and that's before you start to change the light angle. It will give you a good grounding on some simple basics :)
Click to expand...

Sounds like a good exercise, will have a look on premier ink. For the umbrellas I take you mean reflective white/silver with a black backing? edit: what sort of size should I be looking at? I think my shoot through is about 3 foot across.
 
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maninsuitcase said:
Sounds like a good exercise, will have a look on premier ink. For the umbrellas I take you mean reflective white/silver with a black backing? edit: what sort of size should I be looking at? I think my shoot through is about 3 foot across.
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Yes, reflective white and silver. Personally I'd go for 33in - only £8* and big enough, and it's not so easy to properly fill large brollies with a speedlite.

It's a good plan to spend some time working out the best distance from gun-to-brolly on the shaft, and flash zoom head setting. So the brolly is properly filled, but without tons of light blasting past the edges - that just wastes light and all that spill will bounce around the room, possibly picking up colour along the way, and return as unwanted fill-in.

This spill is part of the characteristic of shoot-throughs, as half the light bounces out of the back anyway. So you get kind of auto-fill-in - all part of the super-soft look that shoot-throughs are good for.

*Sorry, £10 http://www.premier-ink.co.uk/photographic/umbrellas/kood/-c-60_415_721.html
 
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what distance and shot frequency do you need? Speedlights can have a long reach
 
You know there's a lot of cheaper flash units like the Yongnuo TTL flashes.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/YONGNUO-YN5...lite-Camera/dp/B00A2JTL86/ref=pd_sim_sbs_ce_4

TTL for when you need it and would be a perfect back up (and addition) to your Nikon speedlight. You can buy adapters to add a second speedlight and Lastolite do a lot of multi flash softboxes should you want to buy them.

When outside, make sure you are careful. A slight breeze and a brolly will just blow your stand over! I lost a 580EX that way ;(

You may want something more powerful when shooting in very bright light, then your choices may be something a little more extravagant but what you have just now will be fine.

You might also want to look at how you trigger the flash (if using remote triggers) - Again the Yongnuo get a great name with the Yn622s that fire in Manual as well as ETTL.
 
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