Speedlight general usage help

[cargo]

Hi all I am not confident in using the speedlight.
So when say you want to shoot of an evening outdoors may be in a city centre with friends or similiar and I was thinking it would be nice to have better images than standard snaps. I am aware you need to bring the ambiant up first eg: iso and wider aperture plus longer shutter. Then add the flash
So I did this test and am still confused as to which is looking better or nearer the mark so I can then tweak settings.

All advice welcomed.

Camera is Canon 450 Flash is 580 ex Canon 50mm lens.

Start Image

As above + bare flash in ettl

As Start image + Hotshoe flash with stoffen ETTL

As start image + Bare flash Ettl -1

As start image + Bare flash ettl -2

Gaz

 

[Phil V]

My first observation of your test is the proximity of the subject (it's smaller than an actual human head) which makes ETTL metering a bit hit and miss. The second thing is whether you're set your Canon flash metering mode to CWA as it makes it a bit more predictable.

When it comes to the lighting - the on camera flash just doesn't look nice - try the same thing bouncing the shoe mounted flash off a reflector camera right. then try a cable connection and a brolly. Remember always that when we set out in photography we fixate on the quantity of light (to get correct exposures) but your photography won't improve until you consider the quality of the light.

Then try gelling the light to make the colour contrast less severe.

 

[HoppyUK]

Couple of issues. You might get more reliable results by switching flash metering to average/centre-weighted rather than evaluative. Then shoot in Av, when the camera will adjust the shutter speed for correct ambient exposure, then attempt to balance the flash with it.

This is difficult for the camera, because every subject is different and the result you want is also highly subjective. So take a test shot, then adjust the ambient brightness with +/- compensation on the camera, and adjust flash brightness with +/- compensation on the gun. Very easy, and you have a lot of control there, as it looks like you've discovered. As a rule, less is more with fill-in flash.

Then the Stofen. That only works when there's a ceiling/walls for the flash to bounce off. It will do nothing outdoors, but if you've just stuck it on with the flash head facing directly forwards, it will screw up the metering because the camera doesn't know it's there and at close range it uses focusing distance as the overriding factor, rather than pre-flash data. But tilting or rotating the flash head disables distance info allowing the pre-flash to do its thing.

 

[cargo]

My first observation of your test is the proximity of the subject (it's smaller than an actual human head) which makes ETTL metering a bit hit and miss. The second thing is whether you're set your Canon flash metering mode to CWA as it makes it a bit more predictable.

When it comes to the lighting - the on camera flash just doesn't look nice - try the same thing bouncing the shoe mounted flash off a reflector camera right. then try a cable connection and a brolly. Remember always that when we set out in photography we fixate on the quantity of light (to get correct exposures) but your photography won't improve until you consider the quality of the light.

Then try gelling the light to make the colour contrast less severe.

Hi Phil
I appreciate you taking the time to educate me.I had a look at the menu settings on my camera and the flash is in evalutive mode.Not sure what the difference is but I assume this is how most flashguns/cameras are set by default. Yes I was unsure as to how much light in the images was considered correctly exposed but I think this maybe a touch subjective within limits?
I am realising that the full on flash sucks but outside is there not a better way to get more flattering light than having to haul around all the equipment eg brollie and reflector?
Lastly I do have gells "not used them" if I put the cto gell on do I change the wb setting ?

Gaz

Couple of issues. You might get more reliable results by switching flash metering to average/centre-weighted rather than evaluative. Then shoot in Av, when the camera will adjust the shutter speed for correct ambient exposure, then attempt to balance the flash with it.

This is difficult for the camera, because every subject is different and the result you want is also highly subjective. So take a test shot, then adjust the ambient brightness with +/- compensation on the camera, and adjust flash brightness with +/- compensation on the gun. Very easy, and you have a lot of control there, as it looks like you've discovered. As a rule, less is more with fill-in flash.

Then the Stofen. That only works when there's a ceiling/walls for the flash to bounce off. It will do nothing outdoors, but if you've just stuck it on with the flash head facing directly forwards, it will screw up the metering because the camera doesn't know it's there and at close range it uses focusing distance as the overriding factor, rather than pre-flash data. But tilting or rotating the flash head disables distance info allowing the pre-flash to do its thing.

Hello

So in short dump the stoffen outdoors ? It was front facing too. I thought it did some good as from the images I posted the light was softer and I could'nt replicate that with bare flash even when -2 on flash power.
I did shoot in Av with -2 ev but in retrospect was thinking maybe to switch to manual and use ettl flash what do you think?

I posted these to learn and partly as there is a zombie walk tomorrow and was toying with the idea of having a wander down, thing is they walk at 6pm so it will be dark hence the flash question. I am guessing the images would be ok with harsh shadows and maybe even lite from below as it is meant to be ghoulish.

I have a had a drink of wine and dragged my missus outside "away from strictly" for few minutes and took these please forgive the quality as they were quick and took 1/2 an hour apart so ambeant was gone and near impossible to focus.

First image is taken on a Bare flash on a ettl short cord held in my hand and aimed up from camera left.

This one is done the same only with a Gamilight small softbox attached "had another glass of red by then" Hence the glasses issue.

Is the lighting better for being off the camera and bearing in mind that I want to photogragh zombies.

Ps: I didnt change the the flash metering method.

The flash was set to 0 ettl

Gaz

 

[Phil V]

In the menu where it says flash metering evaluative, the other option is centre weighted. Both Richard and I recommended that change.

From those 2 shots the 1st is underexposed because her right hand is slightly over so eval quenched the flash.

The 2nd is spoiled by the reflection on the glasses. Best helped with angles.

 

[cargo]

In the menu where it says flash metering evaluative, the other option is centre weighted. Both Richard and I recommended that change.

From those 2 shots the 1st is underexposed because her right hand is slightly over so eval quenched the flash.

The 2nd is spoiled by the reflection on the glasses. Best helped with angles.

Thanks PhiL

Yes I found it in the menu. If I change to centre weighted for the flash is it best kept set to that all the time? re : the last 2 images. I am reading into your reply that the light is better and other than the angles/composition which resulted in shadow on face plus glare in glasses I am getting better results and enough light on my subjects ?


Gaz

 

[HoppyUK]

Thanks PhiL

Yes I found it in the menu. If I change to centre weighted for the flash is it best kept set to that all the time? re : the last 2 images. I am reading into your reply that the light is better and other than the angles/composition which resulted in shadow on face plus glare in glasses I am getting better results and enough light on my subjects ?


Gaz

I use centre-weighted metering for flash, and evaluative for normal (camera) metering. It's quite a common change to make.

The potential problem is that evaluative has some smart thinking attached to it. It's very clever and analyses the scene in multiple ways, but when it comes across something unusual exposure wise, as is more common with flash photography involving both bright foregrounds and dark backgrounds, it can attempt to make quite strong adjustments. Sometimes it gets it right, but if it jumps the wrong way, being a little too smart for its own good, it can be quite a long way out and it takes a bit more fiddling to get things back.

In a really difficult situation, if the composition changes slightly shot to shot, perhaps like the hand that Phil mentioned, it can flip the other way and you're chasing after it again. Basically, centre-weighted metering is more consistent, and less prone to mistakes with flash. Sometimes

 

[The23rdman]

And just to answer your other question, yes, it is almost always better to get your flash off camera.

If you have a long enough lead try putting your flash on a monopod to get it further away. Experiment with having the flash at angles including directly above you. You'll know you've gone too far when light isn't getting into the eye sockets.

 

[cargo]

Thanks Richard I understand better now.I didnt realise the flash also metred the scene in the same way a the camera does.I have my camera set to centre weighted as I seem to get better results that way.

Gaz

 

[cargo]

And just to answer your other question, yes, it is almost always better to get your flash off camera.

If you have a long enough lead try putting your flash on a monopod to get it further away. Experiment with having the flash at angles including directly above you. You'll know you've gone too far when light isn't getting into the eye sockets.

Hi Dean

Thanks for that I was starting to think that taking the camera off the hot shoe had made no differance to the light. Good tip about knowing when you gone to far and there is no light in the sockets.
Only have short lead but do have some triggers and a light stand they will not do ettl though.

Gaz

 

[Phil V]

Thanks PhiL

Yes I found it in the menu. If I change to centre weighted for the flash is it best kept set to that all the time? re : the last 2 images. I am reading into your reply that the light is better and other than the angles/composition which resulted in shadow on face plus glare in glasses I am getting better results and enough light on my subjects ?


Gaz

You can see the subtle shadowing on your girlfriends face, which is an improvement. I'd put the improved exposure down to the distance of the subject, as I said earlier - close objects tend to be difficult for auto flash (IMO).

There are excellent tutorials on the internet (I'm led to believe) to help you get your head round placement of lights, and how different light modifiers will change the quality of shadows. You need to get your head around how it's the shadows that create shape, that'll help daylight as well as flash photography. Like all things photography related, I can't give you a simple instruction that'll get you what you want - because I've no idea of the location, or of exactly what you want to achieve.

Back to exposure
If you look at the 1st of your 2nd set of pic's, the face is about 3/4 stop under. But if you add 3/4 of adjustment in post - the hand will be completely over. That's what the TTL metering stopped happening.
Given the proximity of the flash, there's over a stop of distance between the hand and the face from the flash (look up inverse square law) - the upshot of that is - give yourself some breathing space.

 

[The23rdman]

Learning to use manual is great. Also look up Neil van Niekerk who has an amazing blog of using bounce flash. With just one simple homemade tool you can do amazing things with bounce flash. No good outdoors though. Phil's suggestion to use a reflector is great. You can hold it out and bounce light off it.

 

[cargo]

You can see the subtle shadowing on your girlfriends face, which is an improvement. I'd put the improved exposure down to the distance of the subject, as I said earlier - close objects tend to be difficult for auto flash (IMO).

There are excellent tutorials on the internet (I'm led to believe) to help you get your head round placement of lights, and how different light modifiers will change the quality of shadows. You need to get your head around how it's the shadows that create shape, that'll help daylight as well as flash photography. Like all things photography related, I can't give you a simple instruction that'll get you what you want - because I've no idea of the location, or of exactly what you want to achieve.

Back to exposure
If you look at the 1st of your 2nd set of pic's, the face is about 3/4 stop under. But if you add 3/4 of adjustment in post - the hand will be completely over. That's what the TTL metering stopped happening.
Given the proximity of the flash, there's over a stop of distance between the hand and the face from the flash (look up inverse square law) - the upshot of that is - give yourself some breathing space.

Yep Phil I had worked out the hand ttl thing but in all honesty the bad placement of the hand would throw to much shadow over the subjects face no matter what exposure was used.If the hand were lower I am assuming all would have been metered well.

Gaz

ps: If this were for real, I am aware I could pull the face up and use masks and so forth to b****r around with the image.
Really chuffed you still helping."That goes to all whom are posting"

 

[cargo]

Learning to use manual is great. Also look up Neil van Niekerk who has an amazing blog of using bounce flash. With just one simple homemade tool you can do amazing things with bounce flash. No good outdoors though. Phil's suggestion to use a reflector is great. You can hold it out and bounce light off it.

Yes that site is simply the best out there for flash.

This is the thing there seems to be no info anywhere on taking flash images with just the spedlight in the hotshoe outdoors at night.

I am thinking thats because you can't get decsent results without having the flash off camera "at least" and better still bouncing it or having softboxes or brollies?

Gaz

 

[cargo]

Just going to change the meter mode for flash on the camera unfortunatly the only options are evalutive or average (it is set to evalutive as default0

Is average similiar too centre ? I am assuming this is because the camera is older.

Canon 450 d

Gaz

 

[Mr G]

I use centre-weighted metering for flash, and evaluative for normal (camera) metering. It's quite a common change to make.

The potential problem is that evaluative has some smart thinking attached to it. It's very clever and analyses the scene in multiple ways, but when it comes across something unusual exposure wise, as is more common with flash photography involving both bright foregrounds and dark backgrounds, it can attempt to make quite strong adjustments. Sometimes it gets it right, but if it jumps the wrong way, being a little too smart for its own good, it can be quite a long way out and it takes a bit more fiddling to get things back.

In a really difficult situation, if the composition changes slightly shot to shot, perhaps like the hand that Phil mentioned, it can flip the other way and you're chasing after it again. Basically, centre-weighted metering is more consistent, and less prone to mistakes with flash. Sometimes

Would you use flash metering on average/centre-weighted rather than evaluative. even when flash is off camera, say when using pocketwizards or such like...

 

[Phil V]

Would you use flash metering on average/centre-weighted rather than evaluative. even when flash is off camera, say when using pocketwizards or such like...

As soon as Canon gave us the option of Centre Weighted Average (20d I think with ETTL II).
The advice from anyone who knows anything was to switch to it.

As Richard says, Evaluative can be great but when it's wrong it's a nightmare.

 

[Phil V]

Just going to change the meter mode for flash on the camera unfortunatly the only options are evalutive or average (it is set to evalutive as default0

Is average similiar too centre ? I am assuming this is because the camera is older.

Canon 450 d

Gaz

The average is centre weighted average, it's the one!

 

[Phil V]

Yes that site is simply the best out there for flash.

This is the thing there seems to be no info anywhere on taking flash images with just the spedlight in the hotshoe outdoors at night.

I am thinking thats because you can't get decsent results without having the flash off camera "at least" and better still bouncing it or having softboxes or brollies?

Gaz

Yes, the only way you can improve on camera flash is to bounce it. A large flash source right above the camera would be OK but totally impractical in use. Bouncing is a tricky option outdoors, which is why I suggested a reflector.

Photographers learn that a bigger light source is better then go and buy a 6" soft box for their flashguns, totally useless, 6" is only a large light source at macro distances.

 

[The23rdman]

Yes, the only way you can improve on camera flash is to bounce it. A large flash source right above the camera would be OK but totally impractical in use. Bouncing is a tricky option outdoors, which is why I suggested a reflector.

Photographers learn that a bigger light source is better then go and buy a 6" soft box for their flashguns, totally useless, 6" is only a large light source at macro distances.

Actually, those hand held lumiquest softboxes are pretty useful for head shots.

 

[Phil V]

Actually, those hand held lumiquest softboxes are pretty useful for head shots.

I'll take your word for it, but you can't deny bigger is better.

 

[tezmed]

from the initial post you seem quite keen on raising ambient light....

if you can get the level of flash sorted on your subject your sorted.... the ambient light is only realistically lighting up the surroundings which is not overly important as photos can look good with the backing with imperfections.... maybe try some different diffusers i'd say to control the flash or alter power

 

[cargo]

Hi all. Have changed the flash to average so going forward at least I am set up for the task

Hi Terry thanks for your input.
Yes I would like to have the background light in there to some degree otherwise the photos would just look like a point n shoot photo with a black/very dark background and big white faces where the flash it's the subject.

Gaz

 

[HoppyUK]

Would you use flash metering on average/centre-weighted rather than evaluative. even when flash is off camera, say when using pocketwizards or such like...

Yes.

As a comment on some other posts, I use on-camera flash quite a lot - with a Lumiquest QuikBounce. It's actually quite a good position for fill-in, and with the QuikBounce (and some other flash modifiers) it raises the light usefully above the lens, helping to reduce shadows cast behind. It also offers at least a bit of softening, because it's larger than the bare flash. The QuikBounce also does a lot of other things pretty well, indoors and out, that I've posted about before often enough http://store.lumiquest.com/lumiquest-quik-bounce/ It's very versatile.

The problem with a lot of location flash photography is that you're heavily compromised. Bigger modifiers are impractical, off-camera is much harder, multiple lights difficult or impossible, and you're often pressed for time. You just have to know what the options are and work them into the situation as best you can.

 

[cargo]

You can see the subtle shadowing on your girlfriends face, which is an improvement. I'd put the improved exposure down to the distance of the subject, as I said earlier - close objects tend to be difficult for auto flash (IMO).

I was under the impression that the closer the light source the bigger it appears therefore a softer light plus some wrap would occur ?


Gaz

 

[The23rdman]

I'll take your word for it, but you can't deny bigger is better.

Generally. At arms length they produce a nice light with a little edge. Very convenient too.

 

[HoppyUK]

I was under the impression that the closer the light source the bigger it appears therefore a softer light plus some wrap would occur ?


Gaz

True - the closer the light, the larger it becomes relative to the subject.

But take the LQ QuikBounce that I'm always on about. It's roughly 7in wide with six or seven times the light area of the bare flash. When you're close, like a solo portrait, the benefit is fairly obvious.

But the relative size bit works eactly like the inverse square law, so if you move back to double the distance, the relative size of the light is reduced to one quarter - same as the reduction in brightness.

When I use the QuikBounce for small groups, I always try and get as close as reasonably possible for that reason, but when you're maybe six feet or more from the subject, it's harder to see much benefit from the larger light, and also the extra height the Quikbounce gives is effectively reduced and it becomes more on-axis. In that case, I would put the flash on a cord and hold it up to the left, one handed.

As I said above, it's all a compromise. Getting the exposure balance is easy enough, gelling for colour if necessary, bouncing if possible, doing what you can. But in social situations where there aren't many options and you need to work fast, I do what I can but let the subject take priority. I'm more interested in getting a good capture/expression than technical perfection that is pretty much impossible anyway.

That is totally different to an outdoor portrait session that would involve proper modifiers and two or maybe three lights on stands - basically an outdoor studio - and an assistant to hold things and help move them around.

 

[Phil V]

I was under the impression that the closer the light source the bigger it appears therefore a softer light plus some wrap would occur ?


Gaz

Yes! But I was talking about the ability of TTL flash to extinguish fast enough at close distances, in my (limited) experience, flash output is much more reliable at more common distances. But um not an expert in this field and Macro guys commonly use flash to great effect. My guess from the dolls head is that it was shot quite close.

 

[cargo]

True - the closer the light, the larger it becomes relative to the subject.

But in social situations where there aren't many options and you need to work fast, I do what I can but let the subject take priority. I'm more interested in getting a good capture/expression than technical perfection that is pretty much impossible anyway.

Thanks Richard I thought I was loosing the plot if I had got that idea wrong.
Agree totally with the social situation statement. Even though I am not competent enough to do these things you need to get to a level where at least you know the methods so you can adapt as you go.

Thanks again

Gaz

Yes! But I was talking about the ability of TTL flash to extinguish fast enough at close distances, in my (limited) experience, flash output is much more reliable at more common distances. But um not an expert in this field and Macro guys commonly use flash to great effect. My guess from the dolls head is that it was shot quite close.

"Not an expert you seem well versed to me.loving the input and trying to soak it up and hopefully retain some of it.
The dolls head was taken at approx 5ft
Janet was taken I would say around 7ft both on the same 50mm lens.

Gaz

 

[Phil V]

Thanks Richard I thought I was loosing the plot if I had got that idea wrong.
Agree totally with the social situation statement. Even though I am not competent enough to do these things you need to get to a level where at least you know the methods so you can adapt as you go.

Thanks again

Gaz

"Not an expert you seem well versed to me.loving the input and trying to soak it up and hopefully retain some of it.
The dolls head was taken at approx 5ft
Janet was taken I would say around 7ft both on the same 50mm lens.

Gaz

I told you I'm no expert I'd have guessed quite a bit closer than that.

 

[cargo]

Give over Phil I just browsed your website.
Really really great stuff.

Gaz

 

[Phil V]

Give over Phil I just browsed your website.
Really really great stuff.

Gaz

Thanks. We do our thing.