Some Questions About Using Flash For Fill

[68lbs]

Ok, I understand the basics, and know 'on camera' is always frowned upon, but I need to work with what I have and could do with some advise for tomorrow.

1. I am using a 580EXII on camera, underexposing a little, and using the flash on ETTL to fill. Should I...

a. Point the flash directly at the subject
b. Point the flash up in the air and pull up the little bounce card
c. Point the flash up in the air and pop on my little diffuser thingy
d. Something else

2. If I was going to be doing this sort of thing more often (I probably should when second shooting at weddings) what would be the best setup? Does a flash bracket with ETTL cord to move the flash off centre a bit make any difference?

3. If I have my flash on my camera and set to ETTL, how come it fires when the exposure reads correct on the meter? Surely it should only fire if the exposure reads under?

Ok, sorry for all the questions. Number one is the important one for me. The others are just things that rattle around inside my head and pop to the fore when I start posting.

 

[DiddyDave]

Phew - loads to type there

Call me for a chat instead?

DD

 

[68lbs]

Any chance of a reply on screen so that others may benefit from your wisdom?

Plus the fact I don't have your number and am about to eat tea

 

[DiddyDave]

Any chance of a reply on screen so that others may benefit from your wisdom?

Plus the fact I don't have your number and am about to eat tea

You failed the simplest of tests of ingenuity there m8

(Sig has 2 links in it with telephone numbers on!!!)

And no, it'll take ages to type a proper reply as you've asked too many questions at once

My telly time too now

DD

 

[HoppyUK]

April those are quite big questions. And with respect, the way that you have put them altogether suggests that you're not understanding how it all works. Which is fine, but you need to break things down into smaller chunks.

For example, using the little bounce card and the diffuser thingy (you mean a Stofen?) are both bounce-fill techniques where the flash provides almost all the light, and can only work properly with a big bounce surface, ie a ceiling.

But to your main question, direct on camera flash does get a bit of a bad press but for pure fill-in, it's just about perfect. By definition, fill-in only adds a touch of light and when done properly it is virtually unnoticeable to anyone except a photographer - apart from the fact that it dramatically improves the image. And it needs to be close to the lens axis to minimise any shadows it may cast that would give the game away.

Your other point about the flash firing even when there's enough light for a a correct exposure, confuses lighting ratios and dynamic range with exposure - they are not the same thing.

It's about making sure that the right amount of light is in the right places, such as when using fill-in flash. Even without the flash the overall exposure might be correct, but the subject's face could still be in shadow and too dark, or just lacking contrast and a bit of sparkle - which is what the flash provides.

HTH. What did you have for tea?

 

[onform]

Lee, On camera flash is frowned upon yes! but only by idiots that don't know how to use a camera to it's fullest potential and blindly follow what they are told on certain websites..

A flash on camera is a very useful tool in a photographers arsenal as long as it's used correctly!

Ideally, but not a rule, fill flash is purely used to only only just fill the shadows on a subjects face when used in conjunction with a key light, natural ie sunlight or artificial ie strobe, thus bringing it back from under exposure and should come from as close to the lens axis as possible so that it creates no discernible shadows of it's own.

The diffuser panel that pops out of the flashgun is only really meant to be used when shooting UWA so NO don't use that. The little white card that pops out is a tiny bounce card primarily designed to give a little catch light in the eyes of the subjects but it does provide a tiny bit of fill when used close up or when indoors and bouncing the flash.

Your best bet is too fire the flash directly at the subject with no diffusers, unless they are specifically designed to increase effective the size of the flash whilst still firing it directly forward but be aware these will effectively move the flash more off axis with the lens!, put the flash on ETTL and dial in a slight minus FEC on the gun.

Point the centre focus spot at the face or the most important part of the subject and press the FEC lock button on the back of the camera, it's the * button for those that are not aware, this lets the camera take a reading and locks it otherwise the camera uses the reading from where ever the centre focus spot is when you take the shot. Then recompose and take the shot.

Again this is not a rule and will not work in every situation but it is a useful little technique that I use..

Quite in depth but you can take what you want from it

Hope it helps someone..

 

[Hacker]

1. I am using a 580EXII on camera, underexposing a little, and using the flash on ETTL to fill. Should I...

Firstly, if using your flash in ETTL mode always have the camera in Manual mode so you can control the exposure, the flash will then add the correct amount of light for the given situation.

a. Point the flash directly at the subject

Only if using as fill flash, dial in about 1-2 stops of -EV on the flash

b. Point the flash up in the air and pull up the little bounce card

Use a proper diffuser such as a gary Fong or Demb Flip-it, the Flip-it is adjustable and you can control how much light is thrown forward.

c. Point the flash up in the air and pop on my little diffuser thingy

You don't really want to be pointing it straight up in the air, it's better to bounce it off a wall behind you, preferably where the wall meets the ceiling.

Try this as a starter for 10.

d. Something else

See answer C.

2. If I was going to be doing this sort of thing more often (I probably should when second shooting at weddings) what would be the best setup? Does a flash bracket with ETTL cord to move the flash off centre a bit make any difference?

If you are not going completely off camera (such as putting the flash on a light stand etc) use the techniques above.

3. If I have my flash on my camera and set to ETTL, how come it fires when the exposure reads correct on the meter? Surely it should only fire if the exposure reads under?

Because it is on there and switched on, by switching the flash it assumes you want to use it which seems reasonable enough.

 

[68lbs]

Sig has 2 links in it with telephone numbers on!

Your sig didn't appear on your first post... odd. I've stuck your number in my phone though now so you might get an odd call from me sometime.

the way that you have put them altogether suggests that you're not understanding how it all works

Quite possibly. I just stumble along until I need to know something.

Thanks for your reply.

Hope it helps someone

Well, if nobody else, it's helped me a whole load. Cracking explanation and I'm really glad you went into detail about the flash being close to axis of lens etc. That's just the sort of detail that helps me understand why I am doing something.

Firstly, if using your flash in ETTL mode always have the camera in Manual mode so you can control the exposure, the flash will then add the correct amount of light for the given situation.

Many thanks for you in depth reply too Colin. Can I double check something though based on your comment above. Is there anything wrong to keeping the camera in Av, if I dial in -EV?

 

[Hacker]

Hi Lee. You can put the camera in Av but what you must remember if that because you are leaving it up to the camera to determine the exposure it could introduce unwanted variances to the image you are trying to capture. The other thing you will notice when using Av mode is that the exposures will vary if you change your perspective e.g. from landscape to portrait orientation, changing your field of view through zoom movement or by changing your angle of view.

By using manual mode you will have better consistency and accuracy unless the conditions you are shooting means the light conditions are changing rapidly. This gives you the control over the camera and what it is doing. The only automated part of the process should be the TTL functionality of your flash as you are now controlling the ambient exposure (by using Manual) and the flash will automatically give you the right amount of light on your subject. The only thing you will need to keep an eye on is the flash exposure compensation to account for any changes in the reflective light and the tonality of the light.

I know it sounds complicated and using Manual mode for the first time can be daunting but you will soon get used to it once you start to understand it more.

Hope this helps.

 

[vaizki]

Another flash newbie chiming in here.. you said:

Only if using as fill flash, dial in about 1-2 stops of -EV on the flash

Since we're doing E-TTL flash (I have a Metz AF-1 58), you mean that expose ambient for -2EV? Or something else?

How I understood the technique:
- Go full manual on M
- Dial up an aperture that works for the situation (let's say f/8-f/11)
- Adjust exposure so that the camera's light meter reads -2EV
- Fire away?

So that would underexpose the scene in general by -2EV and highlight the flash-illuminated (and E-TTL metered) subjects to optimum (as seen by camera)?

Or did I completely misunderstand the idea? Maybe you meant -2EV FEC?

 

[HoppyUK]

Another flash newbie chiming in here.. you said:



Since we're doing E-TTL flash (I have a Metz AF-1 58), you mean that expose ambient for -2EV? Or something else?

How I understood the technique:
- Go full manual on M
- Dial up an aperture that works for the situation (let's say f/8-f/11)
- Adjust exposure so that the camera's light meter reads -2EV
- Fire away?

So that would underexpose the scene in general by -2EV and highlight the flash-illuminated (and E-TTL metered) subjects to optimum (as seen by camera)?

Or did I completely misunderstand the idea? Maybe you meant -2EV FEC?

Yes, and yes

With fill-in flash the background ambient exposure should be correct, and the flash has to balance with that. That's the idea.

You set the ambient exposure however you like, Av is my preferred option but manual is fine. The E-TTL will then balance the flash to whatever f/number is set.

That should be that, but in practise it does seem that this sometimes results in the flash being over-exposed. There could be various reasons for that - maybe the camera got it wrong, maybe the E-TTL was reading the wrong subject area (distance) which is what the FEL* button is for, or maybe you just want a very small and subtle dose of fill-flash.

In which case, check the LCD image and dial in a stop or so of minus exposure compensation on the gun to darken the flash. Exposure compensation on the camera adjusts the ambient exposure. That's how it works with Canon, there maybe operational differences with other cameras.