So Very Sad, but Sick Bullies

[Fuji Dave]

Care worker beaten to within an inch of his life as he 'protected son from bullies'

A CARE worker was beaten to within an inch of his life by two boys as he tried to protect his 11-year-old son from bullies, it has been reported.

www.theargus.co.uk

 

[woof woof]

It would at least be something if the offenders got a long custodial sentence. But what's the chance?

Thanks to news and videos of attacks on Asians on the net in the US and elsewhere Mrs WW is now genuinely frightened to go to some of the places we normally go such as the local hill which is now infested with youngsters on off road motorbikes. What a world we live in.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

What a world we live in.

In 2018, 30% of those released re-offended within the year and long term studies indicate that 75% of criminals re-offend within 9 years of release. I tend to the belief that pressure from groups, such as the Prison Reform Trust and the Howard League for Penal Reform, has caused politicians to lose sight of the primary function of the criminal justice system: keeping the citizens of this country safe. It seems inevitable to me that such high levels of re-offending will encourage certain types of youngster into crime and violence.

 

[woof woof]

I agree with reform, I see the need to "save" people if at all possible but I think the sad fact is that beating people up and other crime is pretty much consequence free fun for some people.

I agree with joint enterprise. If they were all there when this guy was beaten to a pulp they should all go to prison for a very long time.

 

[Cagey75]

It would at least be something if the offenders got a long custodial sentence. But what's the chance?

Thanks to news and videos of attacks on Asians on the net in the US and elsewhere Mrs WW is now genuinely frightened to go to some of the places we normally go such as the local hill which is now infested with youngsters on off road motorbikes. What a world we live in.

I hope they get charged for attempted murder, and rightly so as he is literally fighting for his life. In some states in the US juveniles can be tried as adults if the crime is serious enough, not sure how it works in the UK? Hope the b@stards get their dues wherever they get sent either way, 15-16 is old enough to know precisely what you're doing and be fully aware of the consequences

 

[woof woof]

Attempted murder may be a stretch as I'm sure the defence will argue there was no intent to kill. The injuries may be life changing and that should IMO be taken into account.

They do say that the fear of crime is often an over reaction and I'm sure the avalanche of incidents reported in the media / social media add to the fear but the list of places Mrs WW is now refusing to go to grows by the day. The attacks on asians here and the US are just sickening. A different subject though.

 

[Fuji Dave]

If they were all there when this guy was beaten to a pulp they should all go to prison for a very long time.

If they get a guilty, then Life or HMP with at least 25/30 yrs rec.

 

[Fuji Dave]

Attempted murder may be a stretch as I'm sure the defence will argue there was no intent to kill. The injuries may be life changing and that should IMO be taken into account.

They do say that the fear of crime is often an over reaction and I'm sure the avalanche of incidents reported in the media / social media add to the fear but the list of places Mrs WW is now refusing to go to grows by the day. The attacks on asians here and the US are just sickening. A different subject though.

They might say OH I did not want to kill him. So why beat him around the head with a log.

 

[Sky]

I'm a strong believer in nurture vs nature. IMO the fantasy violence in computer games and films (mainly from America) plays a huge role in making kids think they can emulate what they see and get away with it.

Even on television news it's not uncommon for violent crimes or actions to be shown to increase viewer ratings.

I hope he pulls through OK. I feel for his family especially - what a terrible thing to happen.

 

[kendo1]

I'm a strong believer in nurture vs nature. IMO the fantasy violence in computer games and films (mainly from America) plays a huge role in making kids think they can emulate what they see and get away with it.

Even on television news it's not uncommon for violent crimes or actions to be shown to increase viewer ratings.

I hope he pulls through OK. I feel for his family especially - what a terrible thing to happen.

There is absolutely no evidence of computer games/TV shows having a role in peoples behaviour.
How many times does this have to be debunked?
Pretty sure Genghis Khan or Vlad the Impaler didn't watch video games.

 

[Sky]

There is absolutely no evidence of computer games/TV shows having a role in peoples behaviour.

I never said there was; I know the evidence. :banghead:

I said it was MY opinion.

 

[woof woof]

They might say OH I did not want to kill him. So why beat him around the head with a log.

One trial I was on jury service for involved an axe attack during which the attacker said they were going to cut the victims f-ing head off and then brought the axe down on the back of their neck. The victim did survive. In the jury room there were those who didn't see this as attempted murder and the attacker was as a result only convicted of assault. One question I asked was what would it take for one particular juror to believe it was attempted murder, would a gun need to be involved? The reply was "Don't go there!"

To me screaming "I'm going to cut your f-ing head off" and bringing the axe down on the victims neck does indeed begin to look a little like attempted murder, but some didn't see it that way, enough not to be able to convict.

The judge seemed surprised and righty so imo and said it was the most serious case of "assault" he'd ever seen.

I think it's far from certain that a conviction for attempted murder will be obtained.

 

[hashcake]

Can someone please explain in laymans terms what the f*** is going on inside the heads of 14-15 years to be able to do such a cruel, disgusting and vile thing to another human?
If my mother was still alive she would seriously wonder what's gone wrong with todays society.
I agree with woof woof with regard to a custodial sentence but I'd be surprised if it happened.
Please no one bleat to me about a second chance because with regard to murder or attempted murder and along with child sexual abuse and rapists, hang them.
I don't know if anyone watched a series on TV recently about Police officers have to use their emergency button when they believe they are in danger?
Every time the offenders were caught they were given woeful sentences and in one case, one of them was ONLY sentenced for a previous crime and NOTHING for attacking the Cop who ended up leaving the job.
This country is soft and pathectic.
I along with others I know who reveived the cane and slipper at school ALL turned out to be decent people

 

[Earley Man]

In 2018, 30% of those released re-offended within the year and long term studies indicate that 75% of criminals re-offend within 9 years of release. I tend to the belief that pressure from groups, such as the Prison Reform Trust and the Howard League for Penal Reform, has caused politicians to lose sight of the primary function of the criminal justice system: keeping the citizens of this country safe. It seems inevitable to me that such high levels of re-offending will encourage certain types of youngster into crime and violence.

Some years ago a law was introduced which made children almost untouchable and effectively told them that whatever they did they could not be punished in any meaningful way. Those same children are now teenagers or in their early twenties. The results of that legislation are now clear for all to see.

 

[hashcake]

IMO the fantasy violence in computer games and films (mainly from America) plays a huge role in making kids think they can emulate what they see and get away with it.

I've been playing violent games and watching violent films for most of my life and I still tell fiction from reality and have never comitted a crime,
However, I believe with those who could succumb to such crimes, mental health surely has to be questionable?

 

[woof woof]

Can someone please explain in laymans terms what the f*** is going on inside the heads of 14-15 years to be able to do such a cruel, disgusting and vile thing to another human?

No idea. As a teenager I was involved in street fights but there were mostly rules... when you said you'd had enough the fight was over and weapons were almost unheard of.

 

[Sky]

I've been playing violent games and watching violent films for most of my life and I still tell fiction from reality and have never comitted a crime,

Same here, but I still think it makes a difference.

 

[hashcake]

No idea. As a teenager I was involved in street fights but there were mostly rules... when you said you'd had enough the fight was over and weapons were almost unheard of.

We did all sorts as kids, nicking the cakes from Mr Kipling lorries when they went for lunch, got caught by a copper who gave us a very stern talk for playing knock door ginger and endless petty little things.
There was the occasional punch up where no one would get really heart but at no point did we decided to beat another person to an inch of their life.

 

[THIRTYFIVEMILL]

Some years ago a law was introduced which made children almost untouchable and effectively told them that whatever they did they could not be punished in any meaningful way. Those same children are now teenagers or in their early twenties. The results of that legislation are now clear for all to see.

I don't think it has as much to do with legislation as it does with parenting. If you were loved but disciplined as a child and set a decent example you often grew up to be loving, disciplined and decent. That doesn't apply to all, of course but I do believe for the most. Now we have a society where a large percentage of Dads are not present and children need a Dad as much as they need a Mum. It's not the punishments that need addressing but the kind of society we've become, where so many youngsters now perpetrate crimes that require punishment by law.

I've said this since my 20s but mostly to deaf ears: if we continue making our society more and more liberal, more and more PC and more and more "modern" we do not travel forward as humanity but backwards and we have done now for decades, each decade worse than the last. Those who said "do whatever you want as long as it's behind closed doors and not hurting anyone else" now see what's done behind closed doors is eventually done outside them. What's OK to fantasise about eventually may well become a persons reality. Integrity and managing one's own moral compass has become non-existent in many parts of society. Whatever they can get away with they will.

If we want to move forward as a human race we need to take a look over our shoulder at a time when laws were not always required in order to make a person do the right thing.

 

[Sky]

if we continue making our society more and more liberal, more and more PC and more and more "modern" we do not travel forward as humanity but backwards and we have done now for decades, each decade worse than the last.

I agree and echo that sentiment entirely - well said.

I was born in the fifties and grew up in the sixties in the east end of London. Money was tight and the neighbourhood was rough; kids fought, were bullied and beat each other up as they've always done. In a few days, they were mates again and you would just put your black eye down to experience. Occasionally, some nutter would use a knife on someone (very rarely a stabbing) and then get locked up never to be seen again. Violence was something that criminals did and as we never had television, it was a world reserved for adults that read newspapers - we just didn't know about it.

Into the seventies, most kids had access to a TV so would watch Kung Fu and the subsequent programmes that showed kicking people in the head was something you did when they were bothering you. Then it was shooting them in the TV cop series'. In my view, it's pretty much gone downhill from there . . .

 

[Cagey75]

Attempted murder may be a stretch as I'm sure the defence will argue there was no intent to kill. The injuries may be life changing and that should IMO be taken into account.

They do say that the fear of crime is often an over reaction and I'm sure the avalanche of incidents reported in the media / social media add to the fear but the list of places Mrs WW is now refusing to go to grows by the day. The attacks on asians here and the US are just sickening. A different subject though.

I was going on the headline in the linked story: https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/19214632.longcroft-park-fifth-boy-arrested-attempted-murder/

I doubt it'll happen, just what I think should. If you attack someone with a weapon at 15-16, you know what might happen, if you repeatedly beat them while they fall unconscious it is attempted murder

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

If we want to move forward as a human race we need to take a look over our shoulder at a time when laws were not always required in order to make a person do the right thing.

There has never, so far as I've been able to establish, been such a period in recorded history. Laws have always been essential to maintain society and defend individuals against others. Laws are among the earliest known writings, wherever settled communities grew up. Known examples of formal legal systems date back to Mesopotamian records from 2830 BCE.

In Britain, formal legal systems do not begin with the Roman Invasion; rather, there is evidence that various systems existed prior to that and some of these were merged into the Romano British system. The Roman system survived through the subsequent migrations and invasions until the Norman Feudal system took its place. This was, in turn, supplemented by the Common Law, which now exists in parallel with Parliamentary Statute Law.

 

[THIRTYFIVEMILL]

There has never, so far as I've been able to establish, been such a period in recorded history. Laws have always been essential to maintain society and defend individuals against others. Laws are among the earliest known writings, wherever settled communities grew up. Known examples of formal legal systems date back to Mesopotamian records from 2830 BCE.

In Britain, formal legal systems do not begin with the Roman Invasion; rather, there is evidence that various systems existed prior to that and some of these were merged into the Romano British system. The Roman system survived through the subsequent migrations and invasions until the Norman Feudal system took its place. This was, in turn, supplemented by the Common Law, which now exists in parallel with Parliamentary Statute Law.

Of course every period of time since civilisation has had laws, that wasn't my point. I was brought up and my son is being brought up, not to refrain from doing certain things because they are against the law but to refrain from doing them because they aren't right, regardless of whether a law prohibits or not. A lie nowadays, for example, is just another way to get what you think you deserve and there seems no apparent shame in that anymore. We can stare at the laws ands punishments until we're blind and introduce more, modify existing ones until the cows come home but that won't help us as a society. We need to look closer to home for the answers; our culture and the examples we set for those who'll come after us.

The government is not the answer to the problems of society. Society is the answer to their problems.

 

[JohnC6]

Attempted murder may be a stretch as I'm sure the defence will argue there was no intent to kill. The injuries may be life changing and that should IMO be taken into account

I was going on the headline in the linked story: https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/19214632.longcroft-park-fifth-boy-arrested-attempted-murder/

I doubt it'll happen, just what I think should. If you attack someone with a weapon at 15-16, you know what might happen, if you repeatedly beat them while they fall unconscious it is attempted murder

I was annoyed to see the report of the incident stated 'allegedly' What an utterly stupid paragraph. Allegedly ..then state the boy's father was left with severe injuries.

But when he arrived and tried to stop the abuse the youths turned on him, allegedly beating him and leaving him with severe injuries.


They may well be charged and convicted of attempted murder. Remember this incident ?

Teenagers given life sentences for Newlove murder

Three youths will serve minimum sentences of between 12 and 17 years for killing father of three

www.theguardian.com

The options are attempted murder or GBH with intent and I see they were arrested for both offences. They both carry a life sentence and the judge may well waive their right (as juveniles..ie under 18) to annonymity.

Wont they take a Section 20 he asked? The difference in GBH answered

Grievous bodily harm/wounding In legal shorthand we often refer to section 18 or 20 offence...

www.ebrattridge.com

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

The government is not the answer to the problems of society. Society is the answer to their problems.

Government is the mechanism by which complex societies attempt to coordinate themselves. The theory that a society like ours can do without a mechanism which, call it what you will, looks like government has never been successfully applied in reality.

The inherent problem for democracy is that it requires effort on the part of the citizens, who too seldom wish to put in the effort required to obtain the real facts of any situation. Most will either vote for the liar who promises them the biggest chicken or do nothing and expect someone else to do their thinking for them.

...and democracy, as we know, is the worst form of government except for all the others.

 

[gman]

"All five suspects have been released “under strict bail conditions”.

I don't know enough about criminal law, but just how much worse does it have to be to remain locked up until court?

I doubt the sentences will come anywhere near reflecting the seriousness of the crime.

 

[THIRTYFIVEMILL]

Government is the mechanism by which complex societies attempt to coordinate themselves. The theory that a society like ours can do without a mechanism which, call it what you will, looks like government has never been successfully applied in reality.

Andrew, you keep missing my point. In simple terms, what I was saying is not that we don't need a government but rather that society needs to look to itself for the problems, rather than blaming or looking to to the government for answers. If I was to call out the government for it's roll in many of society's problems it would be for the appalling moral example they set.

 

[mex]

"All five suspects have been released “under strict bail conditions”.

I don't know enough about criminal law, but just how much worse does it have to be to remain locked up until court?

I doubt the sentences will come anywhere near reflecting the seriousness of the crime.

Sadly there are not enough cells or indeed prisons/holding centres to accommodate them, bail is probably the next-best option.

It's also a sad fact that young offenders see themselves as the Krays and wear their penal time as some sort of badge of honour.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

Andrew, you keep missing my point.

I don't believe so. What you appear to be advocating is vigilatism, which is simply a form of coercion undertaken without legal authority by a self-appointed group of people,

Societies regulate the behaviour of their members through the mechanism of government because the alternatives are even less effective.

 

[THIRTYFIVEMILL]

I don't believe so. What you appear to be advocating is vigilatism, which is simply a form of coercion undertaken without legal authority by a self-appointed group of people,

Societies regulate the behaviour of their members through the mechanism of government because the alternatives are even less effective.

You completely missed it again. I'm not talking about people taking the law into their own hands, I'm talking about society taking responsibility for its own failures and culture. If you're going to continually add your own narrative, agenda or sub-plots to my posts then please leave them be. We're talking about two very different things and it's the weekend and I'd prefer to stay friends.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

please leave them be from here on out.

I see no reason why I should, the point of a forum being discussion, so long as we keep that discussion polite.

Perhaps you mean something different when you write "society" than I understand. To me, society is the total population of an area that agrees to certain common goals and government is the mechanism by which the society attempts to achieve those goals. In Britain, governments exist at different levels to achieve different goals, from parish councils, which look after the requirements for a small population, through district councils, county councils and unitary councils up to national government. My guess is that when you write "government" you mean "national government"?

Law enforcement is largely the province of the county council & unitary council level with input from the districts and parishes. This has been complicated by the appointment of the "Crime Commissionars" but there is still input from all the other levels. These are all elected bodies and because they operate at a local level, they provide the almost direct control that you appear to advocate.