So should I be a mug or not

  • Thread starter Thread starter dod
  • Start date Start date
dod

dod

TPer Emeritus
Suspended / Banned
Messages
16,680
Name
Ebenezer McScrooge III
Edit My Images
Yes
Just received this, I thought H&H was a fairly rich publication :razz:

Dear Mr XXXXX

I have been sent a lovely picture of XXXXXXXXXXXXXX which you took, to use with a news item on our Young Rider page about her winning the Inverness Area Sports Council Sports Personality of the Year for girls under 12.

The Young Rider page operates on a very limited budget and I am emailing to ask if it would be possible to use this picture free of charge? We would of course give you a credit for it. If this is possible would you like your name as the credit or your website address?

Best wishes,

XXXXXXX

Horse & Hound Young Rider

Horse & Hound
Room 2018
King's Reach Tower
Stamford Street
London
SE1 9LS
Click to expand...
 
dod said:
Just received this, I thought H&H was a fairly rich publication :razz:
Click to expand...


Yes - because in this game being a mug goes a long way.

Funny story, back when I did that race where people were falling over in that water and stuff, a BBC weatherman was running for charity. I mailed him two nice images out of goodwill which he thanked me for.

Then they were featured on the BBC news as his 'weather' back drop on the monday after the race.

Last week the BBC called me to say that they are running a show for broadcast on the said guy and his running and they wanted three full res copies for the show. Needless to say they paid and they will be used with full credits also, they advised will be back drops for his interview. The race was what 2 months ago???

I'd say Just give em it but I always remind people who I am and what my camera is capable of if bespoke work is ever required.

Hope this helps.

Pete.
 
Part of the IPC Media group which has some sixty six titles. I'd say they can afford to pay you your due.
 
is this young rider a supliment or something? because if so they may well have their own very small budget.

I would personally go for the credit and just get it published.
 
Jimmy_Lemon said:
is this young rider a supliment or something? because if so they may well have their own very small budget.

I would personally go for the credit and just get it published.
Click to expand...

Segments of the magazine are probably run as seperate profit centres so they may be skint :), unless you are likely to sell these images privately I'd let them have limited use for free.

After all it's not every day you get free advertising in H&H :)
 
Thanks folks, annoying thing is I've had pics paid for in H&H before, this request was totally out of the blue. I think I'll go free but remind them I'm available :)
 
Jimmy_Lemon said:
I would personally go for the credit and just get it published.
Click to expand...


Agree 100% dod.

I got a front page picture published last month and was asked the very same question, Get your feet through the door first and talk about fees at a later date when they ask you again...;)
 
:agree:

Congratulations on the approach - hope you get your work published:thumbs:
 
If you let them us it FOC, remind them that they can't sell the image without paying you. And that each and every time they use the image (printed) you require a copy for your portfolio.

I think that's fair enough!
Carl.
 
CarlOgden said:
If you let them us it FOC, remind them that they can't sell the image without paying you. And that each and every time they use the image (printed) you require a copy for your portfolio.

I think that's fair enough!
Carl.
Click to expand...

Funnily enough that's exactly what I've said to them. Also used Diego's advice on any potential future work.

Congrats on the front page Busterboy, was that the Horse racing pic?

Edit: just for the record this is the culprit :)

ML1W2889.jpg
 
dod said:
Congrats on the front page Busterboy, was that the Horse racing pic?
Click to expand...


It was indeed mate, This is the magazine in question..:)

harness-mag.jpg


harness-mag=1.jpg


front-cover.jpg
 
good hits chaps!
 
dod said:
Edit: just for the record this is the culprit :)
Click to expand...

She wants to get her feet pointed forwards! ;)

get your website address in the credit and that might lead to more as well!

Well done Dod!
 
I would never agree to supply a picture FOC, its what puts those of us who do this full time out of business.

If mags can get away without paying, they will, like any business. If people let them get away with, they will continue trying and all pictures will end up being supplied FOC by part timers or amateurs (no offence, you picture is far from amateur).

It makes me really mad. Some of us would like to continue to put food on the table so please don't encourage a mag with a HUGE budget, and they do, believe me, to get away with this.
 
I've got to agree with JanC, if it was a small or regional publication I probably let them use it but H&H is a weekly mag with a very large reader base and numerous photographers on hand, be they full time or freelance, I know some of them and they do work hard producing the goods and their 'apprenticeship' takes a good couple of years no matter how good a photographer they are.

I realise the amount is not going to be a life changing event but it is the principle of the matter and your work is certainly up there with the best of them. If it was a large motox mag with a similar readership size would you expect payment?
 
JanC said:
I would never agree to supply a picture FOC, its what puts those of us who do this full time out of business.
Click to expand...

interesting 1st post.:|

I do understand you make money from being a pro photog but you try and understand that the apprentice needs to get his foot through the door in order to get more exposure. ;)



If mags can get away without paying, they will, like any business. If people let them get away with, they will continue trying and all pictures will end up being supplied FOC by part timers or amateurs (no offence, you picture is far from amateur).
Click to expand...

Unfortunately that is the way of the world, Anyone wanting a bargain "ie" free will take that opportunity other than paying for images from the pro services.:)


It makes me really mad. Some of us would like to continue to put food on the table so please don't encourage a mag with a HUGE budget, and they do, believe me, to get away with this.
Click to expand...

The mag in question re my picture certainly has not got a HUGE budget FYI.

I did receive free access to all meetings on their calender for 2007 for what its worth.:razz:
 
This whole area is one which can quickly get out of hand. For what it's worth I've told them they can use that pic for nothing for this edition of the supplement.

I've got two main reasons for that. First is that it's free advertising which will direct people back to the website which will hopefully generate business from the horse portraiture side which is far more profitable that £30/£50 for a publication fee. I simply couldn't justify placing an advert in H&H at their rates.

The second reason is publicity for the endurance side of equestrianism. It's certainly the less glamourous side of the horsey world and an image along with the article will make it more likely to be read and may help generate some interest for them.

I'm hopefully taking a wider view than just the next publication fee. Of course if I was full time without any other income I may not take that position, who knows.

Hacker, I'd love to get some images into the likes of DBR etc, but like you say there's an apprenticeship you have to go through. Only 10 years left :p But to answer the question, yes, I would expect payment as the reasons above wouldn't be part of my consideration.
 
I would never agree to supply a picture FOC, its what puts those of us who do this full time out of business.
Click to expand...

I fully understand what you're saying here, like you I've seen this profession change beyond recognition over the last 6 years or so.

Like you I've also sat and cursed well meaning hobby snappers for supplying sometimes awful and sometimes outstanding shots for free, to companies that would have otherwise had to pay someone like me handsomely for. It's not going to change and in Dod's position, I would have done exactly the same thing.

The sad fact is that while there is still a huge gulf between the quality of image my kit can produce and the images from canon and nikon type cameras (which I also use too), it's become totally pointless. Shots taken on these new digi SLR's might not stack up to something from my leaf back but it's still plenty good enough for a full page in a glossy mag.

Lots more photographers are going to need to find other ways to make a living as a result of the changing face of the industry. In exactly the same way as people on the production lines for film stock did when most of those were shut down.

I doubt you stuck with film just to save their jobs any more than Dod should put your interests before his.

Shooting full time might make us more experienced and possibly better equipped but by no means does it guarantee our right to supply images. I don't like it any more than you so but we have to face the fact that there are some very talented people out there that get a huge buzz from having their work used commercially and aren't going to stop to protect us.
 
Hourse and Hound, reminded me of Notting Hill when Hugh Grant goes to see Julia Roberts posing as a reporter from said magazine.

To be honest I would accept a credit, both name and website.
 
I agree with Daz here. I was a part time pro all my life, weddings mostly, although I've done most other stuff too, and when I retired from work I did go full time with the wedding photography for about 8 years and always using film. Thankfully, I never depended on it for my sole income and I made a lot of money, but it's no easy life, in fact it's a relentless grind like any other job. In the end I was so sick of the endless round of samo weddings and wearing a groove in the road back and forth to the lab that I was just glad to pack it in.

The fact is that digital has changed the game out of all recognition, and what you're up against is everyone and his brother who just opened the box on their first DSLR are making noises about turning pro before the batteries have finished charging. ;)
 
dazzajl said:
I fully understand what you're saying here, like you I've seen this profession change beyond recognition over the last 6 years or so.

Like you I've also sat and cursed well meaning hobby snappers for supplying sometimes awful and sometimes outstanding shots for free, to companies that would have otherwise had to pay someone like me handsomely for. It's not going to change and in Dod's position, I would have done exactly the same thing.

The sad fact is that while there is still a huge gulf between the quality of image my kit can produce and the images from canon and nikon type cameras (which I also use too), it's become totally pointless. Shots taken on these new digi SLR's might not stack up to something from my leaf back but it's still plenty good enough for a full page in a glossy mag.

Lots more photographers are going to need to find other ways to make a living as a result of the changing face of the industry. In exactly the same way as people on the production lines for film stock did when most of those were shut down.

I doubt you stuck with film just to save their jobs any more than Dod should put your interests before his.

Shooting full time might make us more experienced and possibly better equipped but by no means does it guarantee our right to supply images. I don't like it any more than you so but we have to face the fact that there are some very talented people out there that get a huge buzz from having their work used commercially and aren't going to stop to protect us.
Click to expand...

Nice post and spot on. Since I have started earning a living from my images, I have been amazed at how stand offish 'old skool' snappers can be. That said, working locally, we all get to see each others work and some of the stuff they sub is appaling, which probably leads them to fear new kids on the block as I care about what I do.

Lets be honest, with the advent of digital, everyone thinks they can take a picture, which aint so, but like all industries, it is evolution, not revolution.

Pete.
 
Interesting subject this.

I've done a couple of freebies recently and they've all lead on to paid work and generated new leads through word of mouth. If handled right it can be an effective way to get your foot in the door.
 
I started (serious) photography 20 yrs ago with a film camera. Like many people I considered pro within a week of my first 2 films being processed and had the usual wish list a minute after the first click. What I have learnt in 20 yrs is that its impossible to get a perfect shot every time, but when you do, its worth the 50 shots you messed up getting it. I have also learnt of the dedication and skill that is required to go Pro. I am still about 15 yrs off that, to me it is still fun and a great passtime.

As for publication, GO FOR IT! I have been published in the UK and the States and every time its a buz to see your picture up there. If its one of your first then let them have it, just tell them you want your name on each print and a contact number so people can call you if they like your work. Also remember, money is not the only form of payment. Could they give you a press pass for future events? free entry? official photographer for an event? Think outside of the box!

As for going pro! I love photography and its a great hobby, but Could I make 70K a year out of it? Not yet, but maybe one day!
 
Removed following Steep's comment below - may be it was, maybe it wasn't but I do not wish to be the cause of any more ill fated threads being prolonged and degraded so ... discretion being the better part ... !




:p
[/COLOR]
 
Ven that's less of an opinion than an outright personal attack and (imo) you should be ashamed of yourself for posting it.
 
I wish more Endurance pics were sent into and printed in H+H. As has been said earlier EGB/SERC/SE are the poor cousins of the horse world and need all the publicity they can get from whatever source.

I sympathise with the pro's among you who feel their work is being sold cheaply but if you don't attend the event let the hobbyist who does supply the copy.

Well done Dod for getting your feet under the table of this mag. I hope it means more paid commissions in the future.

My 2p
 
I will not respond directly to your comment Steep ... I have removed the posting to avoid further degrading this thread.
 
Easy up fellas! :D

Rog has deleted his post, if Steep does the same, I'll delete this one. It wasn't the best thought out post from JanC, especially for a debut post, but I don't think there's any need for us to get our knickers all twisted about it. :wave:
 
Agree (privately) with Ven's missive (before removal) and richmond's comments - but :clap: to Ven for removing his post too, before it caused a verbal scrap :)

I'm not a pro, not even a semi-pro or gifted amateur, but do get a sense of pride when someone wants to trade (cash, gifts or services) for some of my work.

2p given
 
richmond said:
I wish more Endurance pics were sent into and printed in H+H. As has been said earlier EGB/SERC/SE are the poor cousins of the horse world and need all the publicity they can get from whatever source.
Click to expand...

Ahhhh, you into endurance as well then richmond? Wife just did her first 100 miler (2 day) last year at Kelso. She's training up now for her one day 75 miler which she's hoping to do round about May.
 
I used to do endurance with my Arab gelding in the states. I sold him and he finished his first Tevis Cup the year after. This is a 100 miler through the desert in the south of the US. Apparently he's quite good at it still although I've lost contact with the couple who bought him. It is a fab sport that is really catching on in the US maybe ya'll should move!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top