Slipping ball head, how to stop?

Eyon

Eyon

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Under acclaim from reviews and my local Wex shop, I bought a Manfrotto Element Carbon tripod. It ticked all the boxes; light, compact, sturdy, good quality and, important for me, had the ability to convert to a monopod.

I've since used it and, whilst it works well for some uses, I cannot for the life of me get the ball head to stop slipping with heavier setups.

Only the other day I went to do a long exposure of the night sky, came back 10 minutes later to find it pointing directly up, nowhere near my original setting.

Setup that day was a Nikon D800 and a Tokina 16-28 f/2.8. A heavy setup I admit.

Are there any tricks to really stop this happening? Or am I wasting my time and do I need to try and return this tripod for something sturdier?

Thanks!
 
Which ball head are you using and what max weight does it's specification state?
 
I looked at the specs and raises the following thoughts that me.

1) the 8kg rating appears to be "the tripod" and no mention as such of what the head can cope with........though from the likes of Manfrotto there should not be ambiguity.

2) any weight rating would be in regard to a load that is directly through the system. Not if there are lateral forces.

3) with your combo i surmise that the lens is a heavy one that will generate lateral force. So it may be that the standard ball head is not lockable sufficiently to handle that combo usage. A 3 way head I think might be your best option???
 
Different tripod and head would be my solution, for that set up and its intended use what you have is inadequate.

I use something similar when on city breaks with my much lighter mirrorless set up, probably more what its intended for.
 
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The problem isn't the tripod, or the maximum load ratings, it's the ball head's resistance to torsional forces. You could buy a sturdier ball head, or you could mount your camera-lens combination in such a way that it is supported directly under the centre of gravity. Of course as you tilt the camera the position of the centre of gravity moves away from the support point. So you can either use a long quick release plate, which allows you to slide the mounting point back and forth if you change the tilt a lot, or you could use a gimbal mount, which is specifically designed to keep the support under the centre of gravity no matter how you tilt the camera.

I don't know what kind of ball head you have, but I have a Mefoto Globetrotter, a cheap travel tripod which comes with a ball head, and I find that a long quick release plate is quite enough to obtain a good lock on the ball head with much bigger heavier lenses than you're using. Also much reduces the annoying tighten-up-and-droop problem you get with many ball heads when supporting a big heavy camera-lens well off-centre, where you do a careful composition, tighten up the head, and it;s drooped down a bit. So you have to aim a bit high to compensate for the droop when you tighten up.
 
Thanks all for the replies. I was fearing that response @tijuana taxi as I'm not sure I can return the tripod now. Is there anything around £150 which would be more suitable?

@chris malcolm sounds like this could be a good alternative. I assume any long plate would work and it's just a case of finding the right point for the given position.

My setup weighs 1800-1900g with the Tokina lens, it's a shame the only weight advertised by Manfrotto and Wex was the 8kg, seems quite dishonest to a new photographer like me!
 
Eyon said:
Thanks all for the replies. I was fearing that response @tijuana taxi as I'm not sure I can return the tripod now. Is there anything around £150 which would be more suitable?

@chris malcolm sounds like this could be a good alternative. I assume any long plate would work and it's just a case of finding the right point for the given position.

My setup weighs 1800-1900g with the Tokina lens, it's a shame the only weight advertised by Manfrotto and Wex was the 8kg, seems quite dishonest to a new photographer like me!
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If you are primarily using it for long exposures something like a Manfrotto 055 and three way head would do the job nicely.
Have a look for secondhand, also go for aluminium in this price range, you will get more for your money
Not really that portable, but you have your existing tripod for that, different tools for different jobs

Personally don't think the lens plate is the solution the way you are using it.
Got a feeling that ballhead will creep no matter what if left for that length of time.
 
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chris malcolm said:
The problem isn't the tripod, or the maximum load ratings, it's the ball head's resistance to torsional forces. You could buy a sturdier ball head, or you could mount your camera-lens combination in such a way that it is supported directly under the centre of gravity. Of course as you tilt the camera the position of the centre of gravity moves away from the support point. So you can either use a long quick release plate, which allows you to slide the mounting point back and forth if you change the tilt a lot, or you could use a gimbal mount, which is specifically designed to keep the support under the centre of gravity no matter how you tilt the camera.

I don't know what kind of ball head you have, but I have a Mefoto Globetrotter, a cheap travel tripod which comes with a ball head, and I find that a long quick release plate is quite enough to obtain a good lock on the ball head with much bigger heavier lenses than you're using. Also much reduces the annoying tighten-up-and-droop problem you get with many ball heads when supporting a big heavy camera-lens well off-centre, where you do a careful composition, tighten up the head, and it;s drooped down a bit. So you have to aim a bit high to compensate for the droop when you tighten up.
Click to expand...

Eyon said:
@chris malcolm sounds like this could be a good alternative. I assume any long plate would work and it's just a case of finding the right point for the given position.

My setup weighs 1800-1900g with the Tokina lens, it's a shame the only weight advertised by Manfrotto and Wex was the 8kg, seems quite dishonest to a new photographer like me!
Click to expand...

Chris' point about shifting the centre of gravity is a good and the use of a long(er) QR plate (such as an Arca Swiss type lens plate?) is logical but IMO please bear in mind that depending on how far rearwards you need to shift it it is possible that the longer plate will act as a lever on the camera body tripod mounting point.

This possible leverage force might mean the whole body & lens combo is affected by small vibrations that could affect sharpness in long exposure shots. Also that unless you are careful with the overall setup positioning, the same tortional forces you are mitigating for might cause the combo to "fall" in the direction that will cause the plate to tripod screw to undo???

Oh, plus extra cost of converting the ball head to Arca Swiss............unless of course Manfrotto have a suitable long plate that works as QR on that head?
 
Just to summarise myself and the others.

There is no solution that does not need more money being spent.........it is a choice between a 'make it work' (such as shifting centre of gravity with a long plate) or accepting that you've different head and possibly tripod as well, such I and Rich @tijuana taxi saying a 3 way head.
 
Thanks all for the replies. To clarity the main part of my photography is landscape, I can't say long exposures are common place for me, but I like to try the odd one on a clear starry night.

I'll head down to Wex when they're next open (10 minute drive from me, dangerous!) and have a look at my options for heads and plates. Perhaps I'll take my camera and tripod in and see what really works.

The head has an arca Swiss plate already so that should make my options easier for the long plate route.
 
I use the Manfrotto 190 tripod and 3 way head for solar and lunar photography (Canon 550D and Sigma 150-600 C) and it's rock solid. For astro I use a driven mount where the lens foot is bolted direct to the dovetail.
 
Eyon said:
Thanks all for the replies. To clarity the main part of my photography is landscape, I can't say long exposures are common place for me, but I like to try the odd one on a clear starry night.

I'll head down to Wex when they're next open (10 minute drive from me, dangerous!) and have a look at my options for heads and plates. Perhaps I'll take my camera and tripod in and see what really works.

The head has an arca Swiss plate already so that should make my options easier for the long plate route.
Click to expand...


Good idea, bear in mind you need to spend good money to find a ballhead that locks solidly.
 
Jannyfox said:
I use the Manfrotto 190 tripod
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I've got one of those sat upstairs looking for a good home. Used but good nick. Yes, it's nice and solid. Has served me well. Would need a head but if OP was to put an ad in wanted sector I'd let it go for a lot less than he paid for his present tripod.
 
Eyon said:
Thanks all for the replies. To clarity the main part of my photography is landscape, I can't say long exposures are common place for me, but I like to try the odd one on a clear starry night.

I'll head down to Wex when they're next open (10 minute drive from me, dangerous!) and have a look at my options for heads and plates. Perhaps I'll take my camera and tripod in and see what really works.

The head has an arca Swiss plate already so that should make my options easier for the long plate route.
Click to expand...

You need a better head. Worth trying another copy when you get down to WEX though as, even though that's a heavyish combo you've got, I'm surprised it won't hold it at all.

Would you do me a favour Ian? Have a look at that tripod and see if it says where it's actually made, either on the tripod itself or maybe the box. Manfrotto is Italian, but I have an idea they're getting stuff from China too these days. Thanks.
 
I have seen creep on a Manfrotto ball head when heavily loaded before. Upgrading to the 488RC2 solved the problem even when loaded with a Pro level body and substantial Nikon lens.

Alternatively a Manfrotto 804RC2 three way head should be adequate to hold everything in place. The spec for the tripod talks about being suitable for CSCs as well as DSLRs. If it was designed with the CSC in mind, then that is always worrying if something more substantial is put in place.

Richard, a recent Manfrotto 055 does state designed and engineered in Italy, but also Made in Italy. It may not be true of all the range, but certainly if they are getting anything from the far east, it is not the 055. CF though is commonly produced in the far east and given the global nature of their business, sourcing some elements in that market wouldn't surprise me.
 
Jus had a look at the manfrotto tripod in question ,what I find weird is the payload does state 8 kg but the aluminium version states 4kg so it’s not based on the ball head that’s for sure .. personally I wouldn’t trust expensive gear on something that looked that flimsy ,it’s part of a learning curve we have all gone through ..and btw there’s nothing wrong with cheap Chinese gear off of e.bay etc most of it does exactly the same job but hurts your wallet less . ... and after a while you realise that most things these days are made in China anyway even if it doesn’t say so on the labels .
 
Fairly recently bought Befree carbon says Made In Italy.
Their latest range with leg converting to monopod is very similar to an awful lot of far east tripods you see these days

.
 
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I suspect it is cheap Chinese stuff, priced up to make the brand maintain its image, but it does seem very well made and sturdy. I'm not usually a believer that Chinese=bad, because it's generally untrue. Perhaps 10 years ago, but not so much now.

Interestingly I set it up last night before I went to bed, left it there for 7-8 hours and came back with it in an identical position.

It seems bizarre that the only difference is that no shutter was operating, surely such small movement cannot cause a tripod to slip? Or perhaps the rubber at 0 degrees outside wasn't as sticky as it was in my warm room?

 
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Eyon said:
I suspect it is cheap Chinese stuff, priced up to make the brand maintain its image, but it does seem very well made and sturdy. I'm not usually a believer that Chinese=bad, because it's generally untrue. Perhaps 10 years ago, but not so much now.

Interestingly I set it up last night before I went to bed, left it there for 7-8 hours and came back with it in an identical position.

It seems bizarre that the only difference is that no shutter was operating, surely such small movement cannot cause a tripod to slip? Or perhaps the rubber at 0 degrees outside wasn't as sticky as it was in my warm room?

Click to expand...

Shutter bounce can be 'big' but an unknown effect.

Thermal changes can certainly affect locking devices that rely on frictional grip...........but arguably(?) should be mitigated for in the design and manufacturing!
 
Eyon said:
I suspect it is cheap Chinese stuff, priced up to make the brand maintain its image, but it does seem very well made and sturdy. I'm not usually a believer that Chinese=bad, because it's generally untrue. Perhaps 10 years ago, but not so much now.

Interestingly I set it up last night before I went to bed, left it there for 7-8 hours and came back with it in an identical position.

It seems bizarre that the only difference is that no shutter was operating, surely such small movement cannot cause a tripod to slip? Or perhaps the rubber at 0 degrees outside wasn't as sticky as it was in my warm room?

Click to expand...

That looks like a lot of camera for that tripod and more especially ballhead.
Sorry to sound harsh, but if that was outside doesn't look like it would take much to topple it.

That is a "Traveler" style and they are really designed for exactly that, would be better if the head mounting plate was lower and across the top of the legs.
I notice you still have two leg sections closed, guessing those sections are quite spindly and flexible
It works to reduce instability, but not great when you have to keep bending down to use the viewfinder/screen.

I am sticking with my original comment and saying keep this for when you want to travel light, but look for something else for your more specific uses
 
Eyon said:
I suspect it is cheap Chinese stuff, priced up to make the brand maintain its image, but it does seem very well made and sturdy. I'm not usually a believer that Chinese=bad, because it's generally untrue. Perhaps 10 years ago, but not so much now.

Interestingly I set it up last night before I went to bed, left it there for 7-8 hours and came back with it in an identical position.

It seems bizarre that the only difference is that no shutter was operating, surely such small movement cannot cause a tripod to slip? Or perhaps the rubber at 0 degrees outside wasn't as sticky as it was in my warm room?

Click to expand...

I didn't mean to imply that Chinese = bad. Far from it, and in terms of performance vs value China can't be beaten. The majority of all tripods are made there, with only Manfrotto and Gitzo standing apart among the mainstream brands - both Italian, and both owned by the same parent company, Vitec, which is actually British.

Does it say where it's made? Just for interest, nothing more :)
 
If you still have the original Manfrotto box, it will tell you on the end, where the product description and bar codes are, rather than on the tripod itself.
 
8kg payload to easily hold CSC to DSLR with zoom lenses

From the linked page - it states clearly that it'll easily hold up to an 8kg payload. Realistically, you're nowhere near an 8kg payload and it's slipping. If it's not easily holding it - I'd be having a word with Wex about how the product is not as described, and asking them for options on resolving the matter.
 
cymruchris said:
8kg payload to easily hold CSC to DSLR with zoom lenses

From the linked page - it states clearly that it'll easily hold up to an 8kg payload. Realistically, you're nowhere near an 8kg payload and it's slipping. If it's not easily holding it - I'd be having a word with Wex about how the product is not as described, and asking them for options on resolving the matter.
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Agreed.

With regard ballheads, I've used most of them and there are very few that eliminate slippage. The larger RRS head is one of the few. My solution has been to change to the
Manfrotto 410 Junior Geared Tripod Head. I can micro adjust every axis and all with zero slippage.
 
8 Kg is quite a weight…think in terms of 1kg bags of sugar.

A pro level Nikon D3/D4/D5 body at approx 1.43kg including battery and cards plus say a Nikon 70-200mm lens of approx +1.54kg gives a total of around 3Kg. That will put a strain on some ball heads, but 8Kg…..?????

For example, a Manfrotto 484RC2 ball head cannot easily cope with that 3kg, but a larger and more robust Manfrotto 488RC2 generally can.
 
Just my 2p.

Did the salesperson know what you wanted this tripod to support when they advised you? If so you need to have words with them!

Get something decent to put your gear on top of. You have a nice camera + lens so don't cripple it with inadequate support - you will just be wasting money as you are finding out. Whilst the top brand tripods are very expensive they can often be found used at sensible money. If you decide to go with a ball head, but you are on a limited budget, then the Sirui K30X will do the job nicely, I would not recommend a Manfrotto ball head.

Your tripod is a "Traveller" type with 5 leg sections - this is unlikely to hold much of anything steady. Look for something with fewer leg sections and a more rigid spider (top casting) and (ideally) no center column. This will get you a much more rigid setup and may well be lighter too. Some of the Feisol tripods, eg their Tournament models, spring to mind though a used Gitzo would be my preferred choice.
 
Looking at other Manfrotto tripods, this large, robust primarily studio tripod is one I know well and is quoted as a 12Kg payload weight.

https://www.manfrotto.co.uk/058b-triaut-camera-tripod-black

But that is the 'legs', not including the ball head or three way head. You therefore should disregard the payload as relating to what the ballhead will take as that needs to be specified separately.

Confusing, yes, but like a lot of things, you get what you pay for and I would suggest you definitely upgrade the head to something more substantial.

Even the legs look a bit 'weedy' and if you are buying a tripod, it is all about creating a stable platform that will support your kit for absolutely static and pin sharp images. The camera will produce those, but you need to match that kit with suitable accessories too. Otherwise you are wasting your time.
 
THIRTYFIVEMILL said:
Agreed.

With regard ballheads, I've used most of them and there are very few that eliminate slippage. The larger RRS head is one of the few. My solution has been to change to the
Manfrotto 410 Junior Geared Tripod Head. I can micro adjust every axis and all with zero slippage.
Click to expand...

While most tripod and head load ratings are works of fiction dreamed up by the marketing department, any decent mid-range ball head should hold that camera/lens without slipping. It might not hold it easily or without some slight inaccuracy when locking down hard (that's more what you pay extra for with the best heads) but it should hold it.

There is often some movement that's attributed to slipping, but it's usually just the way that ball heads are used, compared to say a 3-way head. With a ball head, you hold the camera in position while locking, taking the weight in your hand, so when you remove your hand there's some natural sagging in the joints and leg flex as the tripod takes the load. There's a knack to minimising this. With a 3-way head, you hold the adjustment arms rather than the camera so the whole rig is always pre-loaded.
 
Oh dear, what have I started here :D

Looked at a few heads in Wex, looks like Manfrotto do the XPro head, which is much larger diameter, thus should grip more. The 3 way heads are just too bulky for my travel tripod, light weight was the key when I purchased it and, whilst a geared head like XPro 3 way is nice, it defeats the purpose of this tripod.

I'm going to continue with the experimenting, see how long it lasts in various positions, and if need be buy this larger ball head, or even a bulkier tripod/head if I find myself doing more long exposures and less travel.

Thanks!
 
Whilst you have the opportunity, I would pop back into Commercial Road now and ask WEX to swap out the ball head you have for a larger more robust version, otherwise you will end up paying twice. See if they will do an exchange as that is more likely to be financially beneficial to you, especially if they knew the sort of equipment you were likely to be using when you first bought it. At least you could take your camera in with you or ask that they replicate your kit on a similar tripod set up and see if it remains solid?
 
i have a chinse branded version of that same setup, looks identical in every way, and I think it's junk (well mostly the head, rather than the actual tripod)

the head is very loose and i get way better results using my kirk ballhead and sunwayfoto ballhead- both have eliptical balls so when you go off axis with a heavy setup on top the stiffness of the ball increases as it works against gravity, but both those heads are close to more than the entire tripod/head setup you just bought
 
A relative had a similar experience with a camera shop and advice regarding suitable tripod and ballhead. She ended up with a Manfrotto BeFree carbon fibre kit including ballhead to support a D810/24-70 for landscape photography. It was woefully inadequate, but this was only realised far too late when it was used in anger. The ballhead has now been replaced with a Sirui K20X/Arca Swiss L bracket, which is massively more solid and the jury is still out on the legs. It's most likely well suited to a light mirrorless setup, but not to a heavy FF DSLR body/lens - the weight ratings aren't really of any use with this stuff - I've no idea who dreams them up... I suspect you're experiencing the same issue

I'd have a chat to the retailer in the first instance as others have suggested
 
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tijuana taxi said:
If you are primarily using it for long exposures something like a Manfrotto 055 and three way head would do the job nicely.
Have a look for secondhand, also go for aluminium in this price range, you will get more for your money
Not really that portable, but you have your existing tripod for that, different tools for different jobs

Personally don't think the lens plate is the solution the way you are using it.
Got a feeling that ballhead will creep no matter what if left for that length of time.
Click to expand...

I too use an 055B with three way head. but it is by no means a light weight set up.

Light weight set ups do need to be used in balance, so the long qr plate suggested above is your best light weight option.
However I would not like to be without a bigger and heavier weight option, to use in more trying conditions. A second hand Manfrotto 055b and 3 way head would be a good choice.
I dump mine in my car, and it spends most of its time being driven around, but is there when I need it.
 
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Eyon said:
Oh dear, what have I started here :D

Looked at a few heads in Wex, looks like Manfrotto do the XPro head, which is much larger diameter, thus should grip more. The 3 way heads are just too bulky for my travel tripod, light weight was the key when I purchased it and, whilst a geared head like XPro 3 way is nice, it defeats the purpose of this tripod.

I'm going to continue with the experimenting, see how long it lasts in various positions, and if need be buy this larger ball head, or even a bulkier tripod/head if I find myself doing more long exposures and less travel.

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Not the cheapest, but good as well as being light - research a Feisol Tournament tripod (3 leg section version is my preference) and a Sirui K20X or K30X. These will happily fulfil your landscape needs and be nice and solid for long exposures so long as it is not too windy. A used Gitzo would be better and (probably cheaper) but you may have to wait quite a while to get one at the right price.

Happy hunting.........
 
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