Beginner Shooting in manual, please help to understand the moving needle :)

Isokl

Isokl

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Hi guys,

I am trying to start shooting in Manual mode, but I am really struggling. I shoo with Canon EOS 70D. What I mean is I set shutter speed, aperture, ISO to what I want.... but the needle on exposure compensation scale keeps moving constantly....giving me crazy results..... therefore I really don't understand what photographers mean by saying 'Manual will give you consistent exposure as it will lock it to what you set'.... how can it be locked as it keeps moving non-stop?

My friends asked me to photograph their wedding and oh god why did I agree...... I am already panicking..... I know I can always switch to Av in case of emergency and us the exposure compensation if necessary etc.....but I want to understand manual as I read most wedding photographers shoot in manual.....I also checked my own wedding pictures info, they're all in manual. So how can I lock the exposure in manual mode?

Sorry, if the post is a bit confusing.....but as you can understand I am confused myself :))

Thanks for all the advice
 



KIPAX Using manual.. Lesson 1 ... ignore the needle..

OK you must know what exposure is because your setting it yourself.. you set the exposure you want... lets say your shooting a person who takes up a small part of the scene and a bright blue sky takes up say 75% of the scene.. if you leave the camera to do the exposure you will more than likely get a loverly sky and a dark face...

So you use manual exposure to make sure you get a perfectly exposed face.... you took over from the camera.. the exposure you want is perfect.. but the camera (the needle) is still trying to (wrongly) expose thee scene.... so you and the camera dissagreed with what the exposure should be.. so your in manual and you control it.. so you win the dissagreement... the needle is the camera trying to win back the argument over proper exposure..

when using manual.. once you have your exposure. you really should completely ignore the needle.. use your viewer and histogram to check the exposure is still correct (in slow changing light)

In fast changing light.. dont use manual.. its useless for fast changing light situations.. in constant or slow changing light its great and stops the camera (bits of plastic and wires with no brain) from making wrong decisions :)
 
Manual exposure setting is not better, it's is just a different route to the same end. And professionals don't use manual all the time, often far from it. They will use whichever mode is most suitable, easiest, or whatever suits their way of working.

But you can't use manual properly until you first understand the concept of correct exposure, how the camera's meter reads and interprets a scene, and how the three primary controls interact (shutter speed, lens aperture and sensor ISO - the Exposure Triangle) and give you creative options - according to the available light. These are the fundamentals, and not difficult.

Try this TP tutorial http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/th...ure-theory-but-were-afraid-to-ask-101.440126/ Then the penny will drop, and you'll be on the way :)
 
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For your friends wedding shoot it in av & use compensation as you need. I think you'd be mad to add the stress of a new way of shooting to a day you're already worried about.

Most pros work the way the find easiest. That may well be av, I know several shoot in p mode. The only reason I shoot in manual is it suits my way of working
 
Isokl said:
I know I can always switch to Av in case of emergency and us the exposure compensation if necessary etc
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For heavens' sake, if you know how to do this, then do it. If you know how to use spot metering for difficult scenes then do that too. There is no real advantage to you shooting in manual mode.
 
The needle works in two subtly diferrent ways (ok, someone is going to jump on me and say it doesn't - but this is one of those little white lies aimed at making things easier to understand)..
  • In P, Av and Tv modes it's a compensation meter, it's the compensation to the automatic exposure that you have chosen to apply;
  • In M mode it's a deviation meter, it's an indication of how far your current settings deviate from automatic exposure the camera would have chosen for itself based on where the camera is currently pointing and the light falling into the lens.
If you've spot-metered and recomposed, or if the light is constantly changing, then it's normal for the dial to move away from the zero point. Set the exposure in manual mode for the bride coming down the aisle and then point the camera at a backlit window and then the pews in the shadows and the dial will jump about - because it's set for the exposure you chose for one circumstance and now you're pointing the meter at brighter and darker scenes. Set the meter for the first dance based on the average lighting conditions whilst the DJ has the disco lights flashing and again, it will jump about with the lighting.

When things get critical, do what you know (Av mode) not something you're unsure about because you think someone else thinks it's the right thing to do (M mode).
 
Isokl said:
Hi guys,

I am trying to start shooting in Manual mode, but I am really struggling. I shoo with Canon EOS 70D. What I mean is I set shutter speed, aperture, ISO to what I want.... but the needle on exposure compensation scale keeps moving constantly....giving me crazy results..... therefore I really don't understand what photographers mean by saying 'Manual will give you consistent exposure as it will lock it to what you set'.... how can it be locked as it keeps moving non-stop?
Click to expand...

It would be worth you clarifying this bit. Are you saying that your actual shots have changing exposures or just that the meter is bouncing around whilst you're shooting? If the former, barring a fault, it can only really be that the light is changing rapidly or you have auto iso or bracketing or something similar turned on. Were you using a flash at all?
 
Hi gad-westy, the needle is moving around while I am trying to shoot. ISO was not on auto and no bracketing.

I have recently done the Intro into DSLR course and a tutor told us that while shooting in M, when you turn your shutter speed ring you should aim at moving the needle to the middle, the 0 point.... that's why it's so confusing for me. When I move it to 0, it tries to move around...so I couldnt understand when I was supposed to take a shot. Besides, when I had it at 0 and pressed shutter release, the results were not what I wanted.

Interestingly, this morning after reading your comments I stopped trying to get the needle into the 0 (middle), and I now get the shots I want :))) Thank you all guys for your advice.

Alastair, your explanation about 'deviation' meter in M actually makes things much clearer for me now :)

I will most probably shoot the wedding in Av as I have been shooting in it for a while.... but as I still have 2 months to practice I thought I'd learn manual as well...
 
Isokl said:
I have recently done the Intro into DSLR course and a tutor told us that while shooting in M, when you turn your shutter speed ring you should aim at moving the needle to the middle, the 0 point.... t
Click to expand...

This is really simple.. if your in M and aiming to get the needle center then your wasting your time in M ... and your tutor is a grade A idiot by the way...
 
As Hoppy says it's best to figure out the relationship between shutter/aperture/iso before delving into manual. When starting out it's really a step too far, I don't get why some tutors push beginners straight into manual mode?? Try using shutter priority and aperture priority until you're comfortable with them and you'll find too that you then have a whole better understanding of what's likely to happen in manual mode
 
Kipax, thanks, I've worked it out from the comments by now... :)

Simonkit, I do shoot in Av and Tv modes... have been trying it for over a year now, I think I understand the exposure triangle fairly ok..... The tutor didnt try to push to shoot in manual, he just showed how it works and it only confused me to be honest. I am glad I raised it here and now I have a much clearer understanding.

I have been reading a few threads about shooting in manual on the forum and I have to admit as probably every newbie I assumed that shooting in manual is going to give me much better results whilst in the end of the day, it's the end result that matters. I will carry on playing with manual settings, trying to sharpen my understanding of metering and exposure and shoot the wedding in Av as this is what I am more comfortable with and used to.

Thanks to all the contributors.
 
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KIPAX said:


KIPAX Using manual.. Lesson 1 ... ignore the needle..
Click to expand...


^This. If you use the needle, you results will just be the same as if you let the camera do it. You need to use manual in conjunction with knowledge of how camera meters work, and also with your other metering modes. For instance: If you are shooting someone against a bright window, just centring the needle alone will be the same as using AV. However, switch to spot metering, will allow you to chose what part of that image is correctly exposed. However.. if you use the spot meter in situations like that, it will still be as effective even you still use AV. For me, manual exposure control is not just about switching the camera to M, it's taking decisions on how you use the camera's meter, regardless of whether it's in M, AV or TV.
 
gad-westy said:
It would be worth you clarifying this bit. Are you saying that your actual shots have changing exposures or just that the meter is bouncing around whilst you're shooting? If the former, barring a fault, it can only really be that the light is changing rapidly or you have auto iso or bracketing or something similar turned on. Were you using a flash at all?
Click to expand...

Finally someone helps the op understand what is going on.
 
gad-westy said:
It would be worth you clarifying this bit. Are you saying that your actual shots have changing exposures or just that the meter is bouncing around whilst you're shooting?
Click to expand...


If the meter is bouncing around excessively, check you've not got the camera set to spot metering.


@Isokl
I think the confusion comes from the statement he read where it says "using manual will be locked to what you set". That is true... it will. If you set 1/60th @ f8, then from that point on, that's what settings will be used. However, that doesn't mean that 1/60th @ f8 is always going to be correct.
Lighting conditions change rapidly when on location, and even inside, the lighting in a room will not be the same everywhere: There will always be places where there is less light than others.

Manual just means making a decision based on what you have. If you're in full manual, you decide what is more important (shutter speed or aperture) and adjust the other accordingly to give a correct exposure based on the current situation, and fr your chosen ISO, although in that case I'd just use aperture priority, or shutter priority (AV, TV on canon) If it's important that you need a certain shutter speed AND aperture, then you can set those, and vary the ISO (or use auto ISO).

You also need to consider the conditions and contrast. As discussed earlier, someone silhouetted against a bright background, or window will result in a tendency to under expose the person if you have evaluative metering set (regardless of whether you're in full manual or not) if you just centre the needle, so use either exp compensation if you have the experience to judge by how much, or if not, use spot metering and meter off the person, not the background.

It's very rare you set and forget a manual setting unless it's a completely controlled environment, such as a studio.

Get it out of your head that "professionals" use manual. This is nonsense. In the studio or for landscapes or architecture, maybe this is the case, but they are just as likely to use semi automatic modes, or even fully automatic if it's required... which is why professional cameras have these modes.


[edit]

With regard to my opening sentence... forgetting you've set spot of centre weighted metering is a really easy to mistake to make... always be aware what metering mode you're in.
 
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Pookeyhead, thanks a lot for your comment. I am so glad to raise the question here as all your replies make the situation with manual much clearer for me now. Thanks.
 
JennyGW said:
And you're an advertiser? And this is how you speak to potential customers?

Noted.
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and thats your only input to this thread.. .... says a lot more about you than him to be fair....
 
KIPAX said:
and thats your only input to this thread.. .... says a lot more about you than him to be fair....
Click to expand...


That not true or even make sense. People follow threads all the time just to learn about a subject without adding to the thread. Just because one speaks up to a comment they feel was uncalled for doesn't tell you something about them. What exactly does it tell you about them? You know what, never mind.
 
JennyGW said:
I think he can fight his own battles.
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Is that directed at me or your knight in shining armour above shaylou .... just seems a little one sided to pick me out and not him ? .... < I was trying to find the appropriate smiley but ran out of time >
 
I don't really shoot in manual but do if required eg, if it gets me the image I want easier and quicker. That said my thinking when using manual is most likley to spot meter or partial meter as most times I am using manual for a tricky situation. I then centre the needle as a staring point, I then add or decress settings as required add exsposure if bright subject, just as you would in exp comp. Like the above posters say it's no better it just makes life easier in certain situations.

Gaz
 
KIPAX said:


KIPAX Using manual.. Lesson 1 ... ignore the needle..

OK you must know what exposure is because your setting it yourself.. you set the exposure you want... lets say your shooting a person who takes up a small part of the scene and a bright blue sky takes up say 75% of the scene.. if you leave the camera to do the exposure you will more than likely get a loverly sky and a dark face...

So you use manual exposure to make sure you get a perfectly exposed face.... you took over from the camera.. the exposure you want is perfect.. but the camera (the needle) is still trying to (wrongly) expose thee scene.... so you and the camera dissagreed with what the exposure should be.. so your in manual and you control it.. so you win the dissagreement... the needle is the camera trying to win back the argument over proper exposure..

when using manual.. once you have your exposure. you really should completely ignore the needle.. use your viewer and histogram to check the exposure is still correct (in slow changing light)

In fast changing light.. dont use manual.. its useless for fast changing light situations.. in constant or slow changing light its great and stops the camera (bits of plastic and wires with no brain) from making wrong decisions :)
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great explaination :clap::clap:
 
Didnt check the comments for a while :) thanks for everyone's input.
 
Manual is only worthwhile in relatively out-of-the-ordinary situations - for example, shooting long exposures of subjects that are tricky to meter (lights trails, starscapes, etc).
In 99% of situations, you will be able to work much quicker and get much better results by shooting in a In appropriate priority mode and by understanding how to use exposure compensation. It doesn't make you less of photographer; you're using almost exactly the same knowledge shooting on manual as you are by shooting priority and adjusting compensation. The latter is just easier.
It's sort of like writing a lengthy piece of prose by hand vs writing it on a word processor. That is, there's very little difference required in knowledge or skill, but the latter just makes things quicker and more convenient.
 
KIPAX said:
Like constant lighting you mean?
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Well, yes, manual is more efficient shooting in continous light that you control. But that's probably even more of a niche pursuit for amateurs than starscapes and the like.
Like I said, for the vast majority (not all) of shooting situations that amateurs are interested in, priority mode + compensation is much more efficient than manual and, for those worried that it marks them out as a novice, requires no less knowledge to get right. I'd be more inclined to ID someone as a novice if they were manual shooting a scene that didn't call for it.
 
There are no rules, but one might be - manual for when the light is constant but the subject is changing; and an auto mode for when the subject is the same but the light is changing. Both very common situations.
 
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