Shooting in Av Mode vs Shooting Fully Manual...

gibtheo

gibtheo

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Hi guys, having pretty much been a self taught sports photographer (except for a small amount of guidance from Dave Lofthouse at Hull City / Hull FC), I started out solely using Av mode. Most of the games I did were pretty good weather and sunny or in stadiums like the KC in Hull with very good light (AFAIK!), and I had no problems, shutter speeds always fast, shooting on a 70-200 f2.8, all good, ISO around 400. Doing bits and bobs of research I then started to shoot in fully manual mode, sometimes using auto ISO when light was gradually fading after a 3pm kick off, especially during the Winter games at Bootham Crescent, where the floodlighting is poor. I generally try to underexpose by a third of a stop. Again, no problems, except the really dark days when I physically could not get anything above 1/160s (I was using a 40D at times which was struggling, ended up shooting RAW, under exposing by 2 stops at times and bring images back in Capture One), aaaaaanyway......

I only know a couple of sports photographers and most that I've met seem to be pretty secretive about the way they work, I found it hard to be able to chat to people about technique and methods, hence this forum being a revelation to me! So at the risk of asking what may seem to some as basic question, here goes...

In your opinion - What is the advantage of shooting fully manual vs shooting Av mode?


Also, given an ideal day weather wise, bright, consistent light for whole game etc. how would you set up your camera to shoot? I guess without knowing any better right now I'd set up as follows...

Manual Mode
f2.8 (using a 70-200mm)
ISO 100
Whatever Shutter Speed I could get ie 1/1000s+
Underexpose by 1/3 stop
Focus AI Servo and Centre Point
High speed continuous drive
Auto White balance
Shooting Large JPEG

Don't think I've missed anything....
 
Personally I dislike any mode other than manual. I don't think that either if my last two cameras have ever been out of manual. I have preferred to make my mistakes & learn from them. I also dislike auto iso, but again, that's personal preference.
I imagine that your settings would be fine, but why jpeg? Are you that pushed for memory space that you can't do it in raw? It's much more forgiving if you botch the exposure a bit.
 
Good points.

I only shoot JPEG if the images are to be sent from pitchside and it's a rush job, so I don't have to process. Most of the York games I did for the club I shot RAW for the insurance of it, also I'm not sure if anyone uses it but Capture One (though I only got it to use shooting tethered in studio) is a great program to use post game to edit down to useable images, crop, adjust levels etc, then I just batch process them all and do any final tweaks in PS for the programs and stuff.
 
gibtheo said:
Ok, thanks, care to elaborate? Control over what?
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Everything, dont know how i can elaborate any more than that, you take full control over exposure,metering, shutter speed, aperture, ISO (unless shooting auto ISO which i do sometimes)

Take a peep at my website, theres even some stuff from under lights at the KC using 2 x Nikon D3S, Nikon 400mm f/2.8 with a 1.4x attached and a 70-200mm f/2.8 with a 1.4x attached, i dont think i did too badly shooting manual

KC Stadium

http://gcsports.zenfolio.com/p544517357

http://gcsports.zenfolio.com/p114166902

Hull KR before the new lights went in

http://gcsports.zenfolio.com/p479590994

In the dark at Headingley

http://gcsports.zenfolio.com/p955897307

And under the rubbish lights you have to make do with at Championship RL grounds

http://gcsports.zenfolio.com/p1062467080
 
Great stuff, I'll check all that out. I prefer shooting manually, I use auto ISO too, sometimes I fall back to Av so I just wondered what other people's reasons for shooting manual or not were were, thanks for the explanation. :-)
 
Adam J said:
Personally I dislike any mode other than manual. I don't think that either if my last two cameras have ever been out of manual. I have preferred to make my mistakes & learn from them. I also dislike auto iso, but again, that's personal preference.
I imagine that your settings would be fine, but why jpeg? Are you that pushed for memory space that you can't do it in raw? It's much more forgiving if you botch the exposure a bit.
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Shooting all the time in manual for sports it useless... Poor advice to say otherwise :(
 
Shooting in manual is good for steady lighting and especialy good for under floodlights..

Shooting in manual is next to useless on a day where light changes quickly or a ground covered in harsh shadows from stands...

Shooting in Mnaul with auto ISO puts you in semi auto mode like Av or Tv as the camera decides on the exposure

Advantage of manual over any of the semi auto is as Gary says.. full control... helps shooting into the sun or if floodlights get in your background when a player jumps to head a ball.. or to put more simple.. to stop the camera being confused in dodgy situations..

Dissadvantage of manual mode is if the light changes quicker than you can change your settings and still get the shot in a fast moving sport... Or your at a ground on a bright sunny day and half the pitch is 2 or 3 stops darker under a big shadow from the stands.. a player running in and out of the dark and light you wont be able to change settings and get the shot when he shoots.. so semi auto is your friend...

The reason your camera has different modes is because they are all of some use... canon didnt put av or P on its 5 thousand pound pro camera for people who dont knwo what they are doing.. they are there for a reason.. to be used when needed..

Anyone tells you to just use manual are tlaking out of there backside.. as are anyone who tells you not to use manual ..

there! :)
 
Absolutely nothing wrong in shooting AV (or indeed, TV).

The caveat however, is that you're shooting in those modes not because you don't know how to shoot manual, rather you know exactly how the camera will behave by doing so. I use it fairly often, especially when the pitch is half sun, half shade. I know exactly what result my camera will give me.

You spend thousands £s on this equipment and it's all there to make your life easier.
 
KIPAX said:
canon didnt put av or P on its 5 thousand pound pro camera for people who dont knwo what they are doing.. they are there for a reason.. to be used when needed..
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Ha , ha, im so crap with flash mate that i shoot with flash IN Program mode and it gives me better results than i could ever get using manual or even AV
 
purpleclouds said:
Absolutely nothing wrong in shooting AV (or indeed, TV).

The caveat however, is that you're shooting in those modes not because you don't know how to shoot manual, rather you know exactly how the camera will behave by doing so. I use it fairly often, especially when the pitch is half sun, half shade. I know exactly what result my camera will give me.

You spend thousands £s on this equipment and it's all there to make your life easier.
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I shot for years using AV mode but shooting Manual just made that little bit of difference, always use it under lights but happy to use AV for a nice day shooting cricket, im a big fan of Auto ISO though and with cameras like the D3S and 1DX it really doesn't matter if it takes you up to and beyond IS0 6400
 
Gary Coyle said:
I shot for years using AV mode but shooting Manual just made that little bit of difference, always use it under lights but happy to use AV for a nice day shooting cricket, im a big fan of Auto ISO though and with cameras like the D3S and 1DX it really doesn't matter if it takes you up to and beyond IS0 6400
Click to expand...

Should add that for everyday stuff like candids, landscape, holiday type stuff im always in AV mode
 
Gary Coyle said:
Ha , ha, im so crap with flash mate that i shoot with flash IN Program mode and it gives me better results than i could ever get using manual or even AV
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I always use P mode with flash.. lucky now I dont use it much as the 1dx shoots in the dark :)
 
Shoot in manual mode if the lighting is constant. This avoids the camera making decisions you don't want it to e.g. a celebrating player runs in front of you with the opposite corner floodlights or sun in the background - in Av the camera will underexpose the player. In manual mode the player will be correctly exposed.

If the pitch is half sun, half shadow, then it gets tricky. I will shoot in shutter priority with the aperture set to within specific limits e.g. 2.8 to 5.6, and ISO set to bounce up & down. Shutter priority ensure I maintain a fast enough shutter speed obviously. I may dial in over or under exposure depending on what the background is doing, but it's a lot of twiddling.

If the pitch is half shade and half shadow, and you've had the good sense to position yourself with the sun in front of you so the players side towards you is shaded and the stands behind are shaded, you can then shoot in manual mode with the exposure set for the shade.

In a floodlight or cloudy or constant light scenario, I'll set my manual exposure at 1/3rd over the grass on the pitch.
 
add my 2p
I have always shot everything in manual mode from the days when there were no auto modes.. and I just have stuck with manual
Looking at Gary Coyles rugby pictures also tells me M is the way to be shooting - the finest Rugby photography ever I have ever seen bar none

I dont shoot sports professionally but do a lot of really tricky items in all kinds of light conditions and the modes are not the way I like to shoot them
 
Buttkicker said:
add my 2p
I have always shot everything in manual mode from the days when there were no auto modes.. and I just have stuck with manual
Looking at Gary Coyles rugby pictures also tells me M is the way to be shooting - the finest Rugby photography ever I have ever seen bar none

I dont shoot sports professionally but do a lot of really tricky items in all kinds of light conditions and the modes are not the way I like to shoot them
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Well thank you young man, it's just a shame employers dont see it like that as i quit because of thieving idiotic amateurs and conmen who reckon to run professional businesses.
 
Gary Coyle said:
Well thank you young man, it's just a shame employers dont see it like that as i quit because of thieving idiotic amateurs and conmen who reckon to run professional businesses.
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Did you ever do sports photography with a film camera?
 
chris.. suggesting fully manual for sports shows a complete lack of knowledge and is bad..nay poor advice... and for the record gary does not shoot all his games in fully manual... some he shoots in manual wiht auto iso which in reality is semi auto and some he shoots in manual.. this is the same as myself and many others shoot..

read the thread and it becomes clear why....
 
KIPAX said:
chris.. suggesting fully manual for sports shows a complete lack of knowledge and is bad..nay poor advice... and for the record gary does not shoot all his games in fully manual... some he shoots in manual wiht auto iso which in reality is semi auto and some he shoots in manual.. this is the same as myself and many others shoot..

read the thread and it becomes clear why....
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Kipax... I choose to shoot in manual mode because it gives the results I want - I dont care two hoots what mode any body else uses to be honest but manual exposes for the part of the picture I want exposing correctly

I am not a sports photographer but have shot more different sports than I care to remember over the years and Manual mode has served me well
and I look at images from Gary and many many others who shoot manual and I see no good reason for me to start using other modes now

so please dont be spouting about my lack of knowledge and bad advice - first time I have heard that telling a beginner to learn how to shoot in manual is bad advice
perhaps telling them to use auto everything will serve them better in the long term (I think not)
 
Chris - Not sure where I have ever read Tony say, NOT to learn how to shoot in Full Manual. Semi Manual, AV, TV or even P mode for that matter.

Tony will and does advise people to know their inside and out, so that you can switch anything as and when needed with the minimum of fuss - i.e. the oppossite.

Gary has also never suggested that Full Manual is the only way to go.

You did not read or comprehend his post correctly and because he is forthright, you decided that it was a good idea to attack him :runaway:

You will find, that those who suggest Manual as the ONLY way to go are not only in a tiny minority but also wrong.

I would suggest two hail Mary's and a chill pill.
 
bigrob said:
you decided that it was a good idea to attack him :runaway:



I would suggest two hail Mary's and a chill pill.
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I think if you actually read the posts Tony was the one attacking me with his comments about me lacking knowledge and poor advice.. so please show me where I have attacked him

it a funny old game where advising someone to learn the basics of using a camera in manual is a bad thing
but I await for you to point out where I have attacked him!!
 
Chris, I have to say when I read your post I also thought Tony was having his butt well and truly kicked.
 
Chris

Buttkicker said:
so please dont be spouting about my lack of knowledge and bad advice - first time I have heard that telling a beginner to learn how to shoot in manual is bad advice
perhaps telling them to use auto everything will serve them better in the long term (I think not)
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You suggesting Tony is 'spouting' at you is an attack - albeit a small one.

You are suggesting that Manual is the way to go for sports photography and Tony is saying that, that is the wrong approach and a combined approach of Manual and Auto is the way. If you read the thread again you will also see that Gary, Tobers and Phil also suggest a combined approach.

Nowhere has Tony said that beginners, or anyone for that matter don't learn how to use Manual.
 
so him telling me I lack Knowledge and am giving bad advice when I believe a beginner should get to grips with what a camera does and does not do and it is me attacking him I think not
if you and Tony like using the program modes you do it but please dont tell people who use and suggest manual that they lack knowledge

I have no problem what so ever with any photographer using what ever settings they like but I must say i feel insulted that it is me supposedly attacking Tony - when you read the whole thread I fell I am the one under attack here for voicing my opinion

the original poster wanted opinions on what people like to shoot AV v Manual

I add my 2p and am shot down for doing so
 
Hahaha that is true.
 
Just wanted to point out, the question originally wasn't about how to use a camera, it was how to use a camera in the most effective way to shoot field based sport. I have been using a camera in manual (and all other modes) for years.

Personally, from the posts received I can see the benefit of using Av, Tv, M and Auto ISO. Obviously everyone can have a slightly different approach and that's the beauty of photography.

Thanks for the replies everyone.
 
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