Safe shutter speeds for hand-holding

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ChrisMoran

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Seeing as you lot are obviously a talented, clever, patient, caring and no doubt good-looking lot could somebody please take the time to explain (in layman's terms) how to work out if the shutter speed the camera has selected (I usually have the camera set to Aperture priority, usually) is safe to use and won't result in visible camera shake?

I'd like to think I have a fair understanding of my camera's functions, and understand about increasing ISO in order to get the shutter speed I require etc, but its what shutter speed I need that I'm confused about. I seem to remember it having to do with a multiplication of the focal length I'm using, but have never had it explained to me in a way that hasn't made my BRANE hurt.

Much thanks in advance!
 
There are lots of variables Chris including how steady your hands are, use of VR/Is etc but as a general rule your shutter speed should be no less than 1 over the focal length.

So for a 50mm lens you should go no slower than 1/50th, a 200mm lens no slower than 1/200th etc.

As I said though you may find that you have particularly steady hands and can go slower. Or particularly shaky hands and need to go faster.

I hope that helps

Neil
 
Oh yeah and some people say you have to take the crop factor into account so in your case multiply by 1.5 so for a 50mm you'd need 1/75th etc but I have never found the crop factor to make a difference

Neil
 
Thanks Neil, that makes sense, although I think I'll ignore that bit about the crop factor 'cos that's starting to make things a bit more complicated when I'm using my 70 - 300mm!
 
If I were you Chris I'd go with 1/focal length and see if your results show motion blur. If not then your fine. If they do then go a bit faster.

Neil
 
Thanks, this helped me out a bit too.
 
The "equation" is actually

Shutter Speed = focal length x crop factor

So, if you have an APS-C body you have a crop factor of around 1.5, which means that a 100mm lens should have a minimum shutter speed of 1/150th of a second. Obviously, if like me you have shaky hands, you need to use around 1/250 upwards unless you have some form of image stabilisation.

Steve
 
ChrisMoran said:
Thanks Neil, that makes sense, although I think I'll ignore that bit about the crop factor
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Good idea. It's just a rough rule of thumb.

Individual variation is much more important. I can handhold about three stops better than my friend. The important thing is to find out what your personal limits are. And there's only one way to do that.
 
I always use the shutterspeed = 1/focal length rule purely because i dont know how to multiply anything with a number that has decimals in it and all crop factors have decimals in them. :naughty:
 
Why would you ignore the crop factor?

It is quite significant.

Jelster has it about right not allowing for the stabilisation.
 
You need to crop factor into consideration - especially for longer focal lengths the difference is significant for a 300mm lens 1/300 as apposed to 1/500 with a 1.6 crop.

And to confuse things even more you subject matter will also influence shutter speed.
 
Oggy said:
Why would you ignore the crop factor?

It is quite significant.

Jelster has it about right not allowing for the stabilisation.
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Just to make things easier I guess, when you're a beginner there's enough flying around your head and working out shutter speeds as per the first posts in this thread make perfect sense, adding in crop factor just complicates things for the beginner.

I'm sure when we all get up to speed we can factor in crop factor which will take us up to the next level and get consistently sharp images.

Thank you Neil for making it simple (as I asked for!)
 
ChrisMoran said:
Just to make things easier I guess, when you're a beginner there's enough flying around your head and working out shutter speeds as per the first posts in this thread make perfect sense, adding in crop factor just complicates things for the beginner.

I'm sure when we all get up to speed we can factor in crop factor which will take us up to the next level and get consistently sharp images.

Thank you Neil for making it simple (as I asked for!)
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it may be simpler to forget it but you wont get sharp images :)
 
Dogfish_magnet said:
it may be simpler to forget it but you wont get sharp images :)
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Granted, but it's a starting point, and we all learn by mistakes.

I just wanted a basic understanding from which to learn from, plus the fact that I was **** at maths at school meaning crop factor scares the pants off me!
 
Dogfish_magnet said:
You need to crop factor into consideration - especially for longer focal lengths the difference is significant for a 300mm lens 1/300 as apposed to 1/500 with a 1.6 crop.
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You see to a beginner this makes not a great deal of sense - crop factor et al - I'd like to think I have a modicum of knowledge (and I stress modicum) but this confusicates me.
 
ChrisMoran said:
Granted, but it's a starting point, and we all learn by mistakes.

I just wanted a basic understanding from which to learn from, plus the fact that I was **** at maths at school meaning crop factor scares the pants off me!
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ChrisMoran said:
You see to a beginner this makes not a great deal of sense - crop factor et al - I'd like to think I have a modicum of knowledge (and I stress modicum) but this confusicates me.
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Some bedtime reading here
 
While in practise the application of the rule varies greatly between individuals, and perhaps even more so depending on how you hold and support the camera (eg leaning against a wall, crouching on one knee, holding the camera at arm's length in live view, IS on/off etc) the principle always holds good.

That is, if you double the focal length, then you must double the shutter speed (or rather, halve the duration) to maintain the same protection against camera shake.

The numbers themselves, eg 1/100sec for 100mm lens on full frame, are pure coincidence. It changes with format, ie the crop factor, and just because compacts use very short focal lengths doesn't mean they have magical hand-holding properties. Likewise, if you crop an image in post processing, you are enlarging the shake along with everything else. For example, if you enlarge just half the image, that translates to increasing the focal length by 1.4x (square root of 2).

Sorry, that probably hasn't made things any clearer LOL.

Also remember that even if you can hand-hold at longer speeds, with IS etc, that does nothing to prevent subject movement.
 
ziggy© said:
I always use the shutterspeed = 1/focal length rule purely because i dont know how to multiply anything with a number that has decimals in it and all crop factors have decimals in them. :naughty:
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I always use this easy way which is to add an extra half of what focal length your using to the shutter speed, for example if your on 80mm, half is 40mm, add both together = 120 which would mean aiming for 1/125 speed. : )
 
I'm not sure how dismissing the crop factor from your calculations can help long term Chris? Surely better to understand it from the off, nail it and then move on to something else you need to learn and understand?

As a beginner myself there seems to be a multitude of these core principles that need nailing that will help you take better pictures by understanding what the devil is going on.

Also, as I ask in my thread on the subject of Shutter Speeds: http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=317932

The focal length x crop = approx shutter speed only works for static subjects. Once you start taking pictures of things that move that then becomes the main decision behind your shutter speed. In many cases the "rule" goes out of the window as it doesn't produce a fast enough shutter speed for moving objects.
 
Zarch said:
SNIP....... In many cases the "rule" goes out of the window as it doesn't produce a fast enough shutter speed for moving objects.
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and conversely the rule can produce too fast a shutter speed for moving objects in some cases ;) - when panning and trying to capture a sharp moving subject but retain the background blurr created by moving the camera / lens while pressing the shutter.

As with most 'Rules' in photography there a good starting point which you will rely on less and less as you get more experienced with the effects of ISO,shutter and aperture and how they interact with each other and ultimately influence the final image captured .
 
Zarch said:
I'm not sure how dismissing the crop factor from your calculations can help long term Chris?
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Because, as I keep saying, inter-person variation is greater than a factor of 1.6 So, if one wants an 'accurate' rule one has to take into account one's own personal ratio and apply that - as well as the crop factor. And the only way to work out one's personal factor is by experimentation (or lots of experience).

My personal experience is that I can shoot at around 2/(Focal Length) to 3/FL on a 1.6 crop*. Somebody who hasn't learnt the correct techniques is likely to need 1/(3 x FL) or faster. Somebody I know with essential tremor will need something like 1/(5 x FL). That's a 10-fold range.

The 1/FL rule of thumb isn't accurate for any of those cases, nor is the 1/(1.6 x FL) rule. But both rules are accurate enough to be useful and, unless one has OCD, why not use the simplest version?


Edit: Only after posting did I realise that my own personal shooting speed varies by a ratio similar to the crop factor.
 
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ChrisMoran said:
Just to make things easier I guess, when you're a beginner there's enough flying around your head and working out shutter speeds as per the first posts in this thread make perfect sense, adding in crop factor just complicates things for the beginner.
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Surely getting it right is more important than making it "easy", and it's not exactly difficult to multiply a number by 1.5 is it.

Think of it this way, you're shooting with a 50mm at f1.8, I would shoot that at 1/75, maybe even 1/100 to get it pin sharp. Shoot it at 1/50 and you could get a small amount of shake on the image, and at f1.8 the whole image will look OOF, and the desired effect of the narrow DoF will be lost.

Multiply this to a 70-200 at the far end at f2.8, and the result could be even worse.

And this the "basics" section, so I wouldn't expect anybody new to the hobby to have experience at holding the camera body and knowing what they can shoot at (if they did, they wouldn't be asking the question!)

Steve
 
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Jelster said:
Surely getting it right is more important than making it "easy"
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And getting it right enough is more important than blindly adhering to meaningless accuracy.

Jelster said:
Think of it this way, you're shooting with a 50mm at f1.8, I would shoot that at 1/75, maybe even 1/100 to get it pin sharp.
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So the 'rule' (either 1/(FL x 1.6) or 1/FL) doesn't apply to you. You need to shoot 1/(FL x 2). Like I said, individuals need to work out their own needs.
 
hollis_f said:
And getting it right enough is more important than blindly adhering to meaningless accuracy.

So the 'rule' (either 1/(FL x 1.6) or 1/FL) doesn't apply to you. You need to shoot 1/(FL x 2). Like I said, individuals need to work out their own needs.
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Well getting it right would mean that your calculations have indeed been accurate.

Well I did say 1/75 OR 1/100, and I've been shooting for long enough to know how poor I am :)
 
ChrisMoran said:
You see to a beginner this makes not a great deal of sense - crop factor et al - I'd like to think I have a modicum of knowledge (and I stress modicum) but this confusicates me.
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Chris, go for double shutter speed (at 50mm go for 1/100th, if handholding perhaps a tad higher,for example) in the first instance. Only you know how much you shake.:D

Try that for a while, look at your results and then alter accordingly.

I know it is not technically 100% correct, but it will get you up and running.
 
chiffs said:
OPer top thread, I have just learnt something new today so I thank you and all who have posted there replies.

Am I right in saying I need to use the 1.5 rule with a 500d?
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1.6

However as suggested....there is more to it than exact calculations based on crop factor.

EDIT: I don't note the exact focal length I shoot when I am zooming the 55-250, so I won't be exact with the calculation. I may zoom 100-200-150mm but won't adjust at each focal length to the precise formula shutter speed = focallength x 1(crop factor). If you can't count it at 1.5 (or 1.6 I think its insignificant at 0.1) then double up as suggested.
 
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ChrisMoran said:
Thank you Neil for making it simple (as I asked for!)
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OK - if you want it simple then why not leave the focal length out of the estimation too. It will be even easier like that (and more wrong :cuckoo:).

Getting an answer wrong by a factor of 1.6 is a large error.

Sometimes this forum seems like a science free zone. :thinking:
 
Just buy a full frame body, makes the maths easier ;)

I started on 35mm film so just used the focal length as a rough guide when learning. The nice thing about digital when I switched (i had a crop.body first) is you can experiment and see the results straight away. I just used 1.5 x focal length when I first started with digital, you don't have to be spot on but try around that speed and then a few faster and slower. You soon find out how slow you can handhold for a given focal length.
 
Oggy said:
Sometimes this forum seems like a science free zone. :thinking:
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Yes, I agree. Perhaps you can explain the science behind the rule to explain why it's exactly 1/FL for full frame and not 1.2/FL or 0.8/FL?

Oh, there is no science behind it. And it's not exactly 1/FL. It's just a very rough approximation. :bonk:
 
hollis_f said:
Yes, I agree. Perhaps you can explain the science behind the rule to explain why it's exactly 1/FL for full frame and not 1.2/FL or 0.8/FL?

Oh, there is no science behind it. And it's not exactly 1/FL. It's just a very rough approximation. :bonk:
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This is the basics section; therefore therefore it is a good idea to let people new to the hobby have some BASIC guides, one of which is the focal length/shutter speed "guide".

When you are new to a hobby/pastime and results don't go as expected, it's easy to get disenchanted and give up. This is the reason why I always take young kids to an "easy" lake the first time they go fishing. Likewise, giving a few simple guidelines for people to take will help them to start taking better quality pictures sooner.

I don't understand your negativity to this guide when it's plain to see that for the majority of people it works, especially if you start to go above 50mm on a crop sensor body. Yes, some people say you should take the crop factor into account, others don't, but suggesting that newcomers should work it out for themselves is not going to help is it ?

There will be some who may need 2 x focal length until they have learned how to hold the camera properly. It's all about basics, let's help them get that right until they have got a little experience behind them.

Steve
 
Well said Steve......:thumbs:
 
Jelster said:
This is the basics section; therefore therefore it is a good idea to let people new to the hobby have some BASIC guides, one of which is the focal length/shutter speed "guide".

I don't understand your negativity to this guide
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You're totally 100% correct. This is the BASIC section. Which is why, in my first post on this thread, my first sentence agreed with Chris' decision to ignore the crop factor as it was over-complicating the BASIC guide.

My negativity is to those who seem to think they're being more accurate by introducing needless complexity.
 
Don't get too worried about this "rule of thumb". Sure, it's easy to apply to primes shooting static objects as you are always shooting at one focal length, but on zooms it's another ball game and most of the time you have no exact idea of what focal length you are actually using. Then having the time to do complicated maths... Do all that and you've missed the shot!

It'll simply come with experience.
 
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