Requesting advice on my first DSLR + kit for macro and high-speed photography

thezeronumber

thezeronumber

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Hello, I'm looking for some help in deciding what I should buy and I'm hoping you guys and gals can throw some expertise my way!

Edit: I'm mostly after help with the flash and flash triggers now as I've been given enough advice to work out what to get for everything else (thanks!)

I'm after a DSLR for the purpose of macro photography (both live and still) with my secondary interest being high-speed capture (water drops, moments of impact, etc). On top of that I'm looking to purchase the necessary kit such as a tripod, lens(es), external flash(es) and a way of triggering said flash(es) when off the camera. I'll also need a remote shutter release but that's an easy purchase. I have a basic understanding of DSLRs but I'm still a newbie. Likewise I've done research on macro and high-speed photography but I have yet to try it out at a 'proper' level so my knowledge is limited to what I have read and how well I have remembered it! I have a strong mentality of getting the best bang for my buck whilst keeping spending to a minimum so I guess you could say that is my version of a budget. The DSLR is the only thing I have a price in mind for, the rest I'm not sure on as I don't know how much I need to be spending to get decent accessories. If that makes sense?

The camera: I've done some hunting over the past few days and I've taken an interest in the Canon 600d, 100d, 60d and 700d (or 650d which is practically the same thing). They each have 18MP 1.6x crop factor sensors and all share a similar price range of around £330 to £450 (body only). I'm not against buying used but I like knowing exactly what I am getting and warranty is nice. There's a motto about photography that is something like "a good camera doesn't matter, it's about a good lens and a good eye" but I don't want to buy a lower-end DSLR and then realise in a few months time that I should have purchased something else because this doesn't do X, Y or Z. The problem is I haven't had a lot of physical use with a DSLR so I don't know if I would ever need or miss, as examples, a 1/8000s shutter speed over 1/4000s, a Digic 5 processor over a Digic 4, etc. Some things are easy to gauge like the battery life - being able to take more shots per charge is obviously better - but the rest is a guessing game for me.

The lens(es): I'm avoiding the dedicated macro glass because I cannot warrant the purchase, instead I'm opting for alternative methods such as reverse ring adapters and extension tubes. I've got an 18-55mm SLR kit lens from a few years ago which is hardly the pinnacle of quality (zooms aren't great for reversing as it is) but it will be fine for getting to grips with the changes in magnification. What I'd like is a prime with a wide aperture and a low focal length such as a f1.8 'thrifty fifty'. The lower it is the better the magnification though any lower than 50mm can start getting pricey. Auto focus isn't going to be necessary so I'm open to buying older lenses in the hope they will end up being cheaper, plus a manual aperture ring would be nice. I've heard some good things about M42 lenses but I don't know anything about them and there's quite a range of product.

The external flash(es): I will need a single flash unit for macro and perhaps an extra one or two for high-speed photography, though I plan to make do with one for now. The former simply requires a decent light source to bring the subject to life and combat the issues high magnification and extensions tubes create, whatever I use for high-speed capture can be used here. For the later I will be using the flash off-camera in combination with the 1/200s sync speed of the DSLR (1/250s for the 60d) to freeze motion in a darkened room. To avoid motion blur I need a flash that can fire at a minimum of 1/20,000s - the faster the better - and I know the Canon speedlites can achieve 1/40,000s on their lowest power setting but they are scary expensive. I'm wondering if something from Yongnuo (YN-560 II?) or another brand would be able to do the job at a far more affordable price. I won't be needing automatic/TTL flashes for any of these as manual gives me the control I'd need.

Triggering the external flash(es): I've done a little digging around and I think the only practical method would be to use radio signals. Some of the DSLRs above can trigger off-camera flashes using the in-built flash but I can't see that working well for high-speed capture. Am I right in thinking that I could pick up a few transceivers, put one on the camera, the rest on the flashes and have the one attached to the camera trigger the external flashes all at once?

The Tripod and mount: Honestly, I have no idea where to begin on these. All I want is something to support the weight of the camera and stay perfectly still but I know it isn't as simple as that! I've looked up a few of the recommended ones on the net and was shocked to see prices of £150+. I don't know how realistic it is but I was really hoping to get something which would do the job for under £50.

I know this is quite a lot of text but I thought it would be better to maybe have too much information than not enough! As you can see I'm a bit lost on it all and I would really appreciate any guidance or clarity some members could throw my way.

Thanks.
 
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You are asking way to much here. If you want advise you need to be more specific in your question and and ask one question at a time. Though your knowledge and opinion can help being helpful being specific in your question will give you direct answers. You may want to start over. Hope that helps you find your answers..
 
shaylou said:
You are asking way to much here. If you want advise you need to be more specific in your question and and ask one question at a time. Though your knowledge and opinion can help being helpful being specific in your question will give you direct answers. You may want to start over. Hope that helps you find your answers..
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Agreed - slow down and ask a bit at a time. Getting bombarded is a turn off.
 
Don't agree . The post is perfectly well written, informative and concise enough. It couldn't be much more specific. I don't have all the answers, but Id much rather see posts like that, than 2 lines of unintelligible drivel or generic "what do i want post"

As for the questions I can answer..

1.) In a real world, the camera processor will give very little difference, you won't tell the difference in most situations between a digic 5 or 4. For what you are wanting to shoot, which is in controlled situations, then any will do.

The same with the shutter speed, your high speed work will actually be using slow shutter speeds, but high flash speeds, so the maximum shutter again is pretty much irrelevant.

2.) The 50mm will probably do most of what you want, and at the cheapest price.

3.) Cant help much here as I rarely use flash

4.) You sound like the perfect match to the photo trigger system, which can be found in its own section further down the forums.

5.) Tripods are either cheap, light or stable, but never all three. Again, you are in a controlled environment and seems you won't be carrying it far, so it doesn't need to be light. So you are left with cheap and stable, which should be achievable with your budget. Have a look for something like a manfrotto 190, or a red snapper, again they have their own section in the forum.

Hope this helps a little
 
I have to say, I also found the questions well written.

1: If you want bang for buck, go 2nd hand and get a xxD the lower priced Canon's are well specc'd but the mid range are so much more usable.

2: As you've already got the kit zoom, get the 50mm for reversing and low light and later you can build from there.

3: Get the Yongnuo ETTL flashes (565 / 568), and the 622 triggers, the ETTL is a great safety net until you realise you can use flash static manually, then the Manual remote control will still be handy.

4: as Tom said, you might need a camera trigger (not sure you realised you did)

5: Like Tom said, go redsnapper, or a 2nd hand Manfrotto system for bang for buck.
 
As regards lenses
do see what you mean about not wanting to spend too much but a dedicated macro lens will make life much easier
I've been doing macro for a few years now and have tried reversing lenses and extension tubes they do work ok but for live subjects in the field a proper macro lens in the long run is the best option
It doesn't have to be expensive something secondhand like the older version of the sigma 105 is a superb lens
I would buy a cheaper body and spend the money saved on a lens
Just my opinion you can get excellent results from reversing and extension tubes but it's much easier with a dedicated lens
 
I was going to reply to this thread and include some pictures from Flickr but to be quite honest after wasting about 30 minutes trying to get the picture on the page and then preview I just gave up!

Sorry folks but I'm afraid I'm just going to go elsewhere in future.

Bye
 
Just upload it using the website gallery upload. Its gets inserted straight into your post then.
 
Thanks for the replies. Choosing the camera has been made a lot easier knowing that I can't go far wrong and the same goes for the lenses; I'll be sure to pick up a 50mm when this is all sorted. I might invest in a dedicated macro lens in the future but I'm determined to give the different methods a shot before I do. I had a look at the Redsnapper items and there's a a sub-£70 tripod and head combo which looks ideal for what I want to be doing, a bit more than I wanted to spend but I don't mind if it's a quality item as the branding reviews suggest. I will check out second-hand gear soon. As it has been said weight won't be an issue when I don't plan to drag it around too much, though I've had my fair share of hauling heavy items around on my back so if it ever came to that I don't think I'd mind.

The lighting equipment is still alluding me a bit. Is the photo trigger system one of those automatic sense-something-and-capture contraptions, such as laser trip-wires or a microphone attached to a flash? If so they interest me but I don't think I should consider them until I have gotten some experience with the basic setup. The timing will require a lot of patience with trial and error but that's what I have come to expect and I'm looking forward to it, frustration and all! If that's not what was meant then you've lost me I'm afraid.

Is TTL something I should really get for macro work? I had got it into my head that manual would be more reliable when it came to tiny subjects and I wouldn't need TTL for high-speed capture anyway but if that's not the case then I'm happy to spend more for an automatic system which saves me time, such as the one mentioned.

As a note apparently the quickest flash duration for a manual Yongnuo is 1/20,000s at 1/128 power, which is fast enough to freeze motion but supposedly half as quick as the 1/40,000s times from the expensive Canon series. A little disappointing if true but I suppose I can't expect the world at a fraction of the price (it should still work fine anyway)!
 
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I can give some advice to some of your questions.

Camera- Doesnt matter. It really, really doesnt matter. There are no 'functions' that one might have that another doesnt that a few months down the road you are going to sorely miss. Any of the camera bodies you listed are capable of world class photos. They are limited only by your skill as a photographer.

Lenses- GET A DEDICATED MACRO LENS. For the simple reason that true macro lenses are corrected for field curvature at high magnifications. Regular lenses, whether used with reversing rings or extension tubes or close up lenses, are not corrected for this. This can make a big difference in your photos if you shoot macro. I shoot with all these techniques and I can tell you that a true macro lens is superior to all of them.

As to your other questions I cant really help. I shoot lots of macro but all mine is handheld (no tripod) with natural light (so no flash either). Examples of my work can be seen here.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8539414@N07/sets/72157626866276690/

A couple of more things. I would look at getting an old manual focus macro lens from the film days that is adaptable to your camera. You will save a lot of money compared to buying new. You dont need auto focus for macro work anyway.

I also highly recommend you look for an old bellows unit with a matching macro lens. These type of bellows lens do not have a built in focusing helicoid and focus instead by moving the bellows back and forth. You can get extreme magnification this way. I dont normally shoot like this since I do everything handheld, usually around a 1:1 ratio.

Hope this helps.
 
Thanks for the assistance. I read the message a few days ago but hadn't been able to reply until today.

After some more thinking I've decided to go with the Canon 600d for three reasons. The first is that it's simply the cheapest option. Money saved is money in my pocket for something else. The second came from comparing the other cameras and asking myself "is the change/addition of X really worth Y to me" and most of my answers were a resounding "no". They would be nice to have, of course, but they're not necessary for my intentions and I don't value them high enough to spend a considerable amount more. The third was what really cemented my decision: I can pick up the Canon 600d, 18-55mm f3.5-5.6 IS II kit lens and the 40mm f2.8 STM 'pancake' for £390, technically less if you include the £30 cash-back Canon is doing. The STM system is designed for 650d onwards but from what I can tell the 40mm is a cracking lens regardless and made better by the fact it's free!

Previously I said I had a 18-55mm kit lens from an SLR. I wanted to double-check so the other day I found the camera bag, opened it up and to my surprise found not one but two lenses, none of which were the lens I thought I owned! What I have instead is a 28-90mm f4.5-6 III and a 90-300mm f4.5-5.6; hardly the pinnacle of quality glass but good enough to play around with before selling on for a few quid. A mix of impatience and curiosity got the better of me so I started testing the lenses in reverse, holding them against the Canon 3000v while I peeked through the viewfinder. Once I had the lens aligned it was great fun to experience first-hand what this technique was capable of. 90mm was nice and 28mm was great but it went to a whole new level when I mounted the 90-300mm to the camera and placed the 28-90mm reversed in-front: The magnification was absolutely nuts! It was fascinating how close I got to the subject, 10:1 magnification on a 35mm sensor if my maths is correct. The lighting was terrible and I couldn't focus for more than a split second so it's not at all practical for taking photos but I loved every moment of it.

I'm not against the idea of buying a dedicated macro lens later on but right now I'm not feeling it. I would be looking at spending a good couple of hundred or more and I can't warrant the spend when there's a really low cost and practical option available. Once I get a decent grasp of macro with this alternate set-up I imagine I'll want to invest in some proper glass.

I've had a good look through your gallery and there's some beautiful stuff there, thanks for sharing it. A lot of the images have a warm feel to them of which I'm assuming natural light is the cause. I'm surprised how crisp some of the photos are considering you were without a flash unit and working with live insects, were the subjects and weather behaving nicely when those were taken or were you going against the odds?
 
I'm going to give you some really good advice here...

Macro photography is a subject that really good photographers bang their heads on the wall with. There is macro and macro... What kit you need, and how it is used varies from shot to shot. This isn't about cameras, this is about choosing the correct lens, the correct set-up and what is between your ears. A lot of macro kit, isn't sexy, it can be fairly low tec. Most of the challenge is "how to light what you want to shoot" (without frying it) and how to get the lighting and the camera (and you) in the right place Vs the subject

High speed photography is another totally different subject, that most really good photographers struggle with. This again has little to do with cameras. This is generally to do with lighting, and knowing how to trigger the lighting at the right time. Again, this is 90% to do wiut what is between your ears.

Save your money, and go get a basic camera and some training. when you have done your training, you will then know exactly what gear you want
 
thezeronumber said:
I've had a good look through your gallery and there's some beautiful stuff there, thanks for sharing it. A lot of the images have a warm feel to them of which I'm assuming natural light is the cause. I'm surprised how crisp some of the photos are considering you were without a flash unit and working with live insects, were the subjects and weather behaving nicely when those were taken or were you going against the odds?
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Thank you for the compliment. As Richard said above macro photography is really about technique, like how to get you and the camera in the right place. Shooting little critters in their natural environment is something that I greatly enjoy so the patience needed for these type of shots comes vary easy to me. Live insects doing what they want and the ever present weather (even just a small breeze) can play havoc with this type of photography. For me much of my photography is just waiting and observing. Much like Henri Cartier Bresson said about waiting for the Decisive Moment in his street photography. It applies to macro as well. Sitting in the high grass or creeping slowly around a grassy field, all the while looking and observing and waiting for the photo to present itself.

Then once the image is found you have to act quickly. Or slowly as the case may be. Slowly move into position bringing the camera to bear. Holding your breath you frame the shot and use micro-small movements back and forth to bring the subject into focus in the very narrow depth of field you are working with. Fire off several shots, and if you're lucky the little critter will be involved enough in what he is doing to allow may one or two composition changes with a slow turning of the focus ring.

When you do nail the shot it is highly rewarding. :)
 
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