Product shot problem... holding the edges.

[sk66]

So I took this shot of a Carl Zeiss lens (not in pristine condition unfortunately).
The setup was a 4ft box ~ 16" overhead. Black v-flats mostly surrounding the lens close. White v-flat out of sight behind and one in front which I bounced another strobe into from the side trying to illuminate the carl zeiss text on the front and for a little fill.

I tried everything I could think of to get the top edge separated. Being lit directly from overhead I wouldn't think I would have this issue. I tried backlighting (killed my reflection), reflectors/v-flats, etc., but nothing worked. Maybe I needed to do a composite? Maybe my box has a bad hotspot? (it's a reflective parabolic w/ diffusion). There wasn't much room left to work/add lights/reflectors around the lens. Maybe I should be working looser?

Anyways, here's the image. Exposure is pretty much SOOC. Attached is a quick sketch of the lens/v-flats. Any help would be greatly appreciated.


Carl Zeiss Planar 85 f/1.4 ZF T* by skersting66, on Flickr

Edit: updated image slightly

 

[HoppyUK]

You say that when back-lit, you lost the reflection, but did you get the top edge you want? Looks like you should have got something. In which case, lose the reflection and add that in post.

Underlying theory is angle of incidence equals angle of reflection.

 

[sk66]

You say that when back-lit, you lost the reflection, but did you get the top edge you want?

Not really, maybe the surface isn't actually reflective enough? I would think with top lighting I should have had a defining edge. But it looks like the hotter area is a little frontal (angle of incidence though). That's why I'm questioning uneven illumination...

Underlying theory is angle of incidence equals angle of reflection.

Billiards...

I've been trying to get it in one shot, but it seems most high end stuff is composited. I probably need to start thinking that way...

Maybe I should have tried a strip box or grid angled just slightly forward... Not using constant lights or having modeling lights is frustrating (I only have one w/ modeling)...

 

[HoppyUK]

Not really, maybe the surface isn't actually reflective enough? I would think with top lighting I should have had a defining edge. But it looks like the hotter area is a little frontal (angle of incidence though). That's why I'm questioning uneven illumination...


Billiards...

I've been trying to get it in one shot, but it seems most high end stuff is composited. I probably need to start thinking that way...

Yes. I don't think the old adage that it's better to do everything in-camera holds good anymore. There's a lot of things that are not only easier to do in post, but better.

Maybe I should have tried a strip box or grid angled just slightly forward... Not using constant lights or having modeling lights is frustrating (I only have one w/ modeling)...

I don't know how you could possibly get a shot like that absolutely right without modelling lights. Positioning has to be mm perfect. I would do it with an assistant moving the lights carefully while checking the viewfinder - you can't eye-ball stuff like that easily, you have to be looking at exactly what the camera sees through the lens.

 

[sk66]

I don't know how you could possibly get a shot like that absolutely right without modelling lights. Positioning has to be mm perfect. I would do it with an assistant moving the lights carefully while checking the viewfinder - you can't eye-ball stuff like that easily, you have to be looking at exactly what the camera sees through the lens.

Yeah, I'm seriously considering converting to LED's... I can tolerate long SS's. Actually, I've just invested a few bucks into something to try...Right now it's a lot of "test shots" (I think I had 20-30 to get to this point, which is annoying).

And I need to start tethering...
Trying to get 5-6 different types of light onto something 5" in size is HARD... and the camera's LCD isn't up to the task for evaluating it.

 

[Phil V]

gridded lights skimming the edges, but as Richard said, they have to be inch perfect.

 

[Garry Edwards]

It is in fact perfectly possible to get it all done in a single shot, not that there's anything wrong with relying on PP.
The problem here is caused by the position of the top light, it needs to be above, behind and tilted forward so that it lights ONLY the top edge, leaving other areas to be lit separately.
A honeycombed light, skimming the edges as Phil suggests, is another way of doing it, and the area covered by this light can be controlled by using Cinefoil (blackwrap) over the honeycomb, but that will take fairly precise positioning and the light won't be as even as it perhaps needs to be.

I don't want to patronise anyone, and I expect a lot of people will already know this because it's a basic tool of still life photographers, but an invaluable aid to light positioning, and especially where there is no modelling lamp, works like this:

1. In a darkened room, put a candle flame immediately and exactly in front of the lens.
Walk around the back of the subject, keep changing your position, including your height.
2. When a reflection of the candle flame is exactly where you want it to be on the subject, place a light exactly where your eye is, pointing of course at the subject (with a very small subject you will need to use just one eye)

The reflection seen by the camera lens will now be in exactly that place. So of course will be any other kind of highlight you want to create.

 

[=ReBeL=]

I have done something similar the other day, but with only a single light and was only interested in the top edge of the subject (in my case a black dslr camera on a black background). + some small spill over the front. I have done it with a stripbox positioned above and behind the subject, tilted forward towards the camera. Due to lack of grid for that stripbox, I just sheltered the camera lens when taking the final exposure to avoid flare.

Even though I have modelling lamps on all flashes I still take quite a lot of test shots. However, tethering is absolutely crucial and will help you a lot.

 

[HoppyUK]

I would try to do it with some bits of white card, positioned behind and above the subject. This is fairly standard procedure with small product work where there's no room for extra lights - bits of card, black or white to either create or kill reflections. There is often enough spill light to make that work though it can take a bit of fiddling to get the size/position/angle/distance of the card right, which is where you need modelling lights and an assistant Silver* works even better but can be harder to position right. Sometimes the card has to be actually in the shot, then removed in post.

If there's not enough spill to catch the card, try to add some with an extra light unit, maybe a narrow-beam LED torch. It's often easier to light the card than get an extra unit in position when space is so tight. Professional studios are always well equipped with bits of black/white/silver card plus holding devices like mini-clamps and clips, bit of wire, Blu-Tack, bodge-tape etc. Check this video, shooting an iPhone for a magazine cover. Note how much time it takes two guys to position multiple bits of reflecting card (they become, in effect, mini light sources) then adding what looks like a small gridded light from behind. Then there's a lot of time retouching and comping in post to get the final image right.

*Silver cake baseboards are handy, with a slightly textured surface that make the reflections less intense and easier to position. Cut to size, sometimes you only need a tiny piece http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb...ke bases silver&sprefix=cake base,kitchen,214

 

[Garry Edwards]

I would try to do it with some bits of white card, positioned behind and above the subject. This is fairly standard procedure with small product work where there's no room for extra lights - bits of card, black or white to either create or kill reflections. There is often enough spill light to make that work though it can take a bit of fiddling to get the size/position/angle/distance of the card right, which is where you need modelling lights and an assistant Silver* works even better but can be harder to position right. Sometimes the card has to be actually in the shot, then removed in post.

If there's not enough spill to catch the card, try to add some with an extra light unit, maybe a narrow-beam LED torch. It's often easier to light the card than get an extra unit in position when space is so tight. Professional studios are always well equipped with bits of black/white/silver card plus holding devices like mini-clamps and clips, bit of wire, Blu-Tack, bodge-tape etc. Check this video, shooting an iPhone for a magazine cover. Note how much time it takes two guys to position multiple bits of reflecting card (they become, in effect, mini light sources) then adding what looks like a small gridded light from behind. Then there's a lot of time retouching and comping in post to get the final image right.

*Silver cake baseboards are handy, with a slightly textured surface that make the reflections less intense and easier to position. Cut to size, sometimes you only need a tiny piece http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb...ke bases silver&sprefix=cake base,kitchen,214

The method shown in that video is perfectly valid for something like an iphone, with a highly reflective surface that has little or no texture to reveal, I've frequently lit knives this way - but IMFFHO a more complex convex shape such as a lens needs to be lit far more selectively.

(Small) reflectors are often the only way, because of limited working space, and an idea worth trying is to use mirrors as reflectors - the light from them is quite difficult to get positioned perfectly, but the results are worth it. Years ago we used a product called 'broken glass' - mirror surfaced plastic that we cut to shape - and it was hard to find and expensive, now we can get plastic mirror tiles on Ebay for next to nothing, and it does exactly the same job

 

[sk66]

I would try to do it with some bits of white card, positioned behind and above the subject.

I tried that... I even tried using an LED torch and dragging the shutter. I might revisit the LED torch idea; but I would probably need even longer SS and darker room in order to "tear down" and add the LED where I need it.

Compositing seems more feasible.

 

[sk66]

It is in fact perfectly possible to get it all done in a single shot, not that there's anything wrong with relying on PP.
The problem here is caused by the position of the top light, it needs to be above, behind and tilted forward so that it lights ONLY the top edge, leaving other areas to be lit separately.
A honeycombed light, skimming the edges as Phil suggests, is another way of doing it, and the area covered by this light can be controlled by using Cinefoil (blackwrap) over the honeycomb, but that will take fairly precise positioning and the light won't be as even as it perhaps needs to be.

We're back to compositing I think... I *might* be able to slightly backlight AND hold the reflection if I go for a little higher camera angle.

I don't want to patronise anyone, and I expect a lot of people will already know this because it's a basic tool of still life photographers, but an invaluable aid to light positioning, and especially where there is no modelling lamp, works like this:

1. In a darkened room, put a candle flame immediately and exactly in front of the lens.
Walk around the back of the subject, keep changing your position, including your height.
2. When a reflection of the candle flame is exactly where you want it to be on the subject, place a light exactly where your eye is, pointing of course at the subject (with a very small subject you will need to use just one eye)

The reflection seen by the camera lens will now be in exactly that place. So of course will be any other kind of highlight you want to create.

Actually, I didn't know this... but it's very similar to the flashlight thru the eyepiece trick.

 

[sk66]

One idea I didn't try is dark field backlighting... I'm not sure how that would affect the reflection.

 

[sk66]

Had another go at it... this time w/ compositing.


Carl Zeiss Planar 85 f/1.4 ZF T* by skersting66, on Flickr